Time to Boo Berry?

[neoflex]

Statistically, it's all up hill. The chances of getting into the NCAA are not in our favor, given the schedule. A lot of luck would have to go our way. 

Berry has single handily dismantled the program. We will probably have to wait another year maybe two before enough the AD pulls the plug, and by then we will be in a full rebuild mode for along time. Good coaches continuously reload their teams with talent, and so far I've not seen that with Berry on the recruitment end.

I would love to get Hak back, but  I would like to see him stay and succeed in the NHL. However, Maine has made some noise in looking at him. They haven't won a title in 20 years, and Gendron has had only moderate success there, and I can seem Main making a change given they haven't made the NCAA tournament in 6 years. I really can't see Hakstol going there, but given enough resources, who knows. I just know he won't be unemployed for long. 

[scpa0305]

39 minutes ago, stoneySIOUX said:

I'm confused where the three years narrative is coming from. Not directly coming at you, AJS, as I've see it a few times. Two years ago we dominated BU in Fargo and missed out on a chance to play for the Four on a controversial call. Last year, we missed the playoffs by one game and would have definitely been in the playoffs with Jost, who was a surprise to leave. Sure, it's frustrating and annoying to miss by one game. But, does making the playoffs, barely missing and having a rough half of this season really equal to three years of struggles? To me, they don't 

Honestly, it just feels like this whole thing is such an overreaction. 

This season has been really tough to stomach and last weekend is pretty much rock bottom, but like I said in the other thread, if Jost is here and we get one more goal in one of those ties and make the playoffs, are we honestly having this discussion? No.

We lost to BU in the first game that year.

I don't really lump myself in the fire Bubs crowd but I am pretty concerned with the direction everything is going.  We haven't had a great team in 2.5 years and I think many of are accustomed to being above average. Even the 16-17 you speak of was super rocky throughout the season and we were bounced game one.  If I remember correctly we were close to missing for a while?  One thing I have noticed is a complete lack of urgency and overall consistency the past 2.5 years.  That is what has me concerned.  I know all of the players' backgrounds, they are much better than this.  We have underachieved for 2.5 years now.  That may be what has folks slightly concerned (rationale folks, not the burn the house down folks  ).

[Old Fella]

44 minutes ago, 90siouxfan said:

This thread reminds me of a comment years ago, totally unrelated.  "Do something, even if it's wrong".  I don't have amswers but i do enjoy looking at problems, speculating at the cause, and pondering answers and results.  Have a great day 

Good quote.  

A saying in the Army was 'a bad decision is better than no decision'

[stoneySIOUX]

16 minutes ago, Irish said:

I agree that this board tends to overreact and I am included in that.  I know we have athletes who are scouted by us and playing at a very high amateur level. I know that we have knowledgeable coaches with some NHL experience.  I guess I could rest easier if I could see improvement in a couple of areas of big deficits - you know, just to know things will get better.  Can someone with more hockey knowledge than me explain why we can't put together a power play to save our souls?  It is painful to watch and has been going on for a long time.  Can't we try something - anything - different than endlessly passing slowly and teeing it up out front?  I just don't get it.  Same with our scoring.  Can't we get someone - anyone- to have a presence in front of the net if we are going to shoot endlessly from the perimeter?  Given our coaches expertise and skill of our players these things should be getting better.  It's been a long time. 

I'd be willing to bet things get better, this year. I do believe in analytics and I think it's common sense that more possession SHOULD equal more goals. I hope it turns and I statistically, it should, because we do have good players on this team.

[Oxbow6]

If this team misses the NCAAs again this year (Vegas has it at a 77% probability) what is the forecast for next season? Mostly cloudy with intermittent storms?

IMO if UND were to miss the NCAAs 3 consecutive years heads need to roll.

[Oxbow6]

1 minute ago, stoneySIOUX said:

I'd be willing to bet things get better, this year. I do believe in analytics and I think it's common sense that more possession SHOULD equal more goals. I hope it turns and I statistically, it should, because we do have good players on this team.

I do too.......I can confirm this with my wife!

[stoneySIOUX]

11 minutes ago, scpa0305 said:

We lost to BU in the first game that year.

I don't really lump myself in the fire Bubs crowd but I am pretty concerned with the direction everything is going.  We haven't had a great team in 2.5 years and I think many of are accustomed to being above average. Even the 16-17 you speak of was super rocky throughout the season and we were bounced game one.  One thing I have noticed is a complete lack of urgency and overall consistency the past 2.5 years.  That is what has me concerned.  I know all of the players' backgrounds, they are much better than this.  We have underachieved for 2.5 years now.  That may be what has folks slightly concerned (that rationale folks, not the burn the house down folks  ).

So, if it were in the second round, it would have been better? Where's the line? We were in the tournament and, for all intents and purposes, won that game. 

Consistency is fair. Totally fair. However, I still think we would have been a lot more consistent with Jost. I just don't see it as 2.5 years, at all. One bad call away from playing for a Four in 16-17, one more goal the year after and in the dance.... it feels like an overreaction to last weekend.  

[stoneySIOUX]

1 minute ago, Oxbow6 said:

I do too.......I can confirm this with my wife!

I'm not sure I understand this one haha.

[stoneySIOUX]

4 minutes ago, Oxbow6 said:

IMO if UND were to miss the NCAAs 3 consecutive years heads need to roll.

Three years would be a trend, absolutely.

[scpa0305]

Just now, stoneySIOUX said:

So, if it were in the second round, it would have been better? Where's the line? We were in the tournament and, for all intents and purposes, won that game. 

Consistency is fair. Totally fair. However, I still think we would have been a lot more consistent with Jost. I just don't see it as 2.5 years, at all. One bad call away from playing for a Four in 16-17, one more goal the year after and in the dance.... it feels like an overreaction to last weekend.  

Nah we didn't.  I was there.  Definitely lost.

It probably is a little bit of an overreaction to last weekend.  That's fair to an extent.  This entire topic has me exhausted...I'm going to let the year play out  

[franchise]

9 minutes ago, Oxbow6 said:

I do too.......I can confirm this with my wife!

[stoneySIOUX]

4 minutes ago, scpa0305 said:

I'm going to let the year play out  

Ditto. That's what I wish we'd all do.

[scpa0305]

4 minutes ago, stoneySIOUX said:

Ditto. That's what I wish we'd all do.

On the other hand I just read TH's tweet saying "Fire Saban"....there is absolutely an entire universe between the two situations.  Not that I think Bubs should get let go, but that analogy make's him sound very unintelligent even though he's joking.

[Old Fella]

25 minutes ago, stoneySIOUX said:

So, if it were in the second round, it would have been better? Where's the line? We were in the tournament and, for all intents and purposes, won that game. 

Consistency is fair. Totally fair. However, I still think we would have been a lot more consistent with Jost. I just don't see it as 2.5 years, at all. One bad call away from playing for a Four in 16-17, one more goal the year after and in the dance.... it feels like an overreaction to last weekend.  

Remember/we scored in the overtime/disallowed due to off side/Bu had regained possession in there zone after the off side/rule has now been changed/if defense gains possession after the off side prior to the goal being scored it is a good goal.  We would have won the regional championship and been in the final four.  Not now defending the state of our program/however please don't use the loss to BU as a negative about Brad's coaching.

[AJS]

1 hour ago, stoneySIOUX said:

I'm confused where the three years narrative is coming from. Not directly coming at you, AJS, as I've see it a few times. Two years ago we dominated BU in Fargo and missed out on a chance to play for the Four on a controversial call. Last year, we missed the playoffs by one game and would have definitely been in the playoffs with Jost, who was a surprise to leave. Sure, it's frustrating and annoying to miss by one game. But, does making the playoffs, barely missing and having a rough half of this season really equal to three years of struggles? To me, they don't 

Honestly, it just feels like this whole thing is such an overreaction. 

This season has been really tough to stomach and last weekend is pretty much rock bottom, but like I said in the other thread, if Jost is here and we get one more goal in one of those ties and make the playoffs, are we honestly having this discussion? No.

It's my person thought that they've underachieved the past three years. You talk about dominating the BU game, which is true, but they made the playoffs by exactly one game that year. To me it would have been different if they had a stronger regular season and then the BU game happened (as we know anything can happen in a one and done).  I'm looking at it as they've been very average in year two and three of the Berry coaching era (typical UND standards), one year barely making and one year barely missing the playoffs. Getting slightly worse each year. Also mentioned that it's a results driven league, missing by a game is unfortunate, but it's a miss.

That being said, it probably still is an overreaction, we'll see how things work out this year. I don't think it's a great sign if he misses two years in a row, after the program only missing once in two decades.

[stoneySIOUX]

10 minutes ago, Old Fella said:

Remember/we scored in the overtime/disallowed due to off side/Bu had regained possession in there zone after the off side/rule has now been changed/if defense gains possession after the off side prior to the goal being scored it is a good goal.  We would have won the regional championship and been in the final four.  Not now defending the state of our program/however please don't use the loss to BU as a negative about Brad's coaching.

I think you're misunderstanding me because that was absolutely not what I was saying. I'm saying that that loss should weigh into the current discussion at all. I've been reading "we've been struggling for 3 years" when we were a bad call (IMO) from being in a regional final two years ago.

[stoneySIOUX]

22 minutes ago, AJS said:

It's my person thought that they've underachieved the past three years. You talk about dominating the BU game, which is true, but they made the playoffs by exactly one game that year. To me it would have been different if they had a stronger regular season and then the BU game happened (as we know anything can happen in a one and done).  I'm looking at it as they've been very average in year two and three of the Berry coaching era (typical UND standards), one year barely making and one year barely missing the playoffs. Getting slightly worse each year. Also mentioned that it's a results driven league, missing by a game is unfortunate, but it's a miss.

That being said, it probably still is an overreaction, we'll see how things work out this year. I don't think it's a great sign if he misses two years in a row, after the program only missing once in two decades.

All fair points, man. I just don't see it as a dramatic downward trend, previous to this year. Had we won that BU game, however, I'm not so sure you would have considered that a down year and I don't think we're all having this discussion had we made the tourney last year. I could be wrong. This year has been really, really frustrating and it's absolutely not a great sign if we miss two years in a row. I agree with that. 

[scpa0305]

4 minutes ago, AJS said:

It's my person thought that they've underachieved the past three years. You talk about dominating the BU game, which is true, but they made the playoffs by exactly one game that year. To me it would have been different if they had a stronger regular season and then the BU game happened (as we know anything can happen in a one and done).  I'm looking at it as they've been very average in year two and three of the Berry coaching era (typical UND standards), one year barely making and one year barely missing the playoffs. Getting slightly worse each year. Also mentioned that it's a results driven league, missing by a game is unfortunate, but it's a miss.

That being said, it probably still is an overreaction, we'll see how things work out this year. I don't think it's a great sign if he misses two years in a row, after the program only missing once in two decades.

Bingo

[tnt]

1 hour ago, scpa0305 said:

We lost to BU in the first game that year.

I don't really lump myself in the fire Bubs crowd but I am pretty concerned with the direction everything is going.  We haven't had a great team in 2.5 years and I think many of are accustomed to being above average. Even the 16-17 you speak of was super rocky throughout the season and we were bounced game one.  If I remember correctly we were close to missing for a while?  One thing I have noticed is a complete lack of urgency and overall consistency the past 2.5 years.  That is what has me concerned.  I know all of the players' backgrounds, they are much better than this.  We have underachieved for 2.5 years now.  That may be what has folks slightly concerned (rationale folks, not the burn the house down folks  ).

That is my biggest concern is that we should have guys that were the top scorers in their league at least having moderate success their freshmen seasons.  Like I said, Kawaguchi just didn't lead the playoffs in scoring in the BCHL, he obliterated the next closest guy.  Watching guys produce that weren't even close to him and basically the same situation with Weatherby this year, has me pondering the reasons why?   Next year to me will really be a reflection, because with Jones and Gardner gone, the freshmen will get plenty of playing time, and even though these freshmen aren't at the very top of their leagues in scoring like Weatherby and Kawaguchi, they are all very highly touted.  If we can't get a 10 goal scorer out of one or two of them, it will really concern me, and will not bode well for us next year.  You always have the expectation of the upperclassmen picking it up and carrying the load, but that hasn't been the case so much this season, which is why things haven't gone that well. 

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

1 hour ago, scpa0305 said:

On the other hand I just read TH's tweet saying "Fire Saban"....there is absolutely an entire universe between the two situations.  Not that I think Bubs should get let go, but that analogy make's him sound very unintelligent even though he's joking.

So even if TH is joking (which he is), why would that make him seem unintelligent? He’s mocking fan overreaction with hyperbole. 

[tnt]

52 minutes ago, Old Fella said:

Remember/we scored in the overtime/disallowed due to off side/Bu had regained possession in there zone after the off side/rule has now been changed/if defense gains possession after the off side prior to the goal being scored it is a good goal.  We would have won the regional championship and been in the final four.  Not now defending the state of our program/however please don't use the loss to BU as a negative about Brad's coaching.

While I agree with your thoughts, the contention that we would have won the regional championship may be a bit of a leap considering we lost to Duluth in the NCHC Championship game the week before with Tucker Poolman playing some of that game.   That said, I would have loved to seen that game happen, as UND would have had a big chip on their shoulder because of some of the things that went down in that NCHC final. 

[fightingsioux4life]

13 minutes ago, InHeavenThereIsNoBeer said:

So even if TH is joking (which he is), why would that make him seem unintelligent? He’s mocking fan overreaction with hyperbole. 

There is a clear downward trend over the past two and one-half seasons. That is not "hyperbole", that is fact.

Next we'll hear that a lot of programs would love to have a winning record every year like us, so we shouldn't be concerned about not being championship contenders anymore. Where (and when) do you draw the line?

The season isn't over, but I don't like what I have seen so far and I will believe there will be improvement when I see it....and not a second before that.

[siouxkid12]

1 hour ago, scpa0305 said:

On the other hand I just read TH's tweet saying "Fire Saban"....there is absolutely an entire universe between the two situations.  Not that I think Bubs should get let go, but that analogy make's him sound very unintelligent even though he's joking.

The problem with TH is he is good friends with Brad, Dane and even Hak. He isn't going to say anything bad about them and he will always take their side.

[siouxkid12]

1 minute ago, fightingsioux4life said:

There is a clear downward trend over the past two and one-half seasons. That is not "hyperbole", that is fact.

Next we'll hear that a lot of programs would love to have a winning record every year like us, so we shouldn't be concerned about not being championship contenders anymore. Where (and when) do you draw the line?

The season isn't over, but I don't like what I have seen so far and I will believe there will be improvement when I see it....and not a second before that.

I do not like what I see at the moment either. However, I am not jumping off the fan wagon nor will I ever. The spotlight is on Brad, Dane, Matt and this team. They all better do some reflecting and try to figure out what is going wrong because it isn't going to be too much longer and someone will be out (my money is on Shaw).

[tnt]

1 hour ago, stoneySIOUX said:

All fair points, man. I just don't see it as a dramatic downward trend, previous to this year. Had we won that BU game, however, I'm not so sure you would have considered that a down year and I don't think we're all having this discussion had we made the tourney last year. I could be wrong. This year has been really, really frustrating and it's absolutely not a great sign if we miss two years in a row. I agree with that. 

Maybe not a downward trend as much as you could look at it that since the NCHC has become a league, it could be argued that Duluth, Denver and St. Cloud have been consistently better than UND in results that count.  If we were back in the WCHA, that would never have been a standard that was acceptable.  UND had always prided itself on having the most league titles and national championships and won more than their fair share of playoff championships.  Hopefully we start with the latter this year, that will propel us going forward into next year.