Sioux94 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Maybe NDSU got fat and happy with having the best players, who knows. But what I do know, is when the scholarships were lowered, NDSU wasn't as dominant. It can't be a coincidence. Well it's good to know NDSU couldn't win big at the DII level when they didn't have an advantage (more money/scholarships). To me it's interesting that Rocky and NDSU fans would want to defend the reduction in scholarships as the reason they declined. To me this is like saying, yep.....we had an advantage over other schools since they didn't have as much money to spend, but when that went away our dominance went away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bison73 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Well it's good to know NDSU couldn't win big at the DII level when they didn't have an advantage (more money/scholarships). To me it's interesting that Rocky and NDSU fans would want to defend the reduction in scholarships as the reason they declined. To me this is like saying, yep.....we had an advantage over other schools since they didn't have as much money to spend, but when that went away our dominance went away.Ive never understood that excuse either. But one would need to know how many schollies UND funded VS NDSU to make a determination on the funding levels prior to the NCAA dropping the levels to 36.From what I understand from talking to players from that era the drop had more to do with internal issues in regards to leadership which permeated the athletic dept at the time.What I don't understand is why UND didn't fund their FB team better like NDSU if you are going to try and make that argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Ive never understood that excuse either. But one would need to know how many schollies UND funded VS NDSU to make a determination on the funding levels prior to the NCAA dropping the levels to 36. From what I understand from talking to players from that era the drop had more to do with internal issues in regards to leadership which permeated the athletic dept at the time. What I don't understand is why UND didn't fund their FB team better like NDSU if you are going to try and make that argument? Roger Thomas said during the "When they were Kings" PBS special that UND had pretty much the same amount as NDSU, but was SDSU and USD funded the same as NDSU? USD did play for a national title in the 80's so they must have been pretty good, UND had poor coaching and Roger had to start at the bottom and work his way up. I think other schools lucked out with recruits and you add the right coach (UND did with Bubba and Lennon along with Thomas) and the ball swings the other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Jealous of what? 4 championships and game day you dang right I am. It's just the arrogance of some of these bison fans that bothers me. If I did have those championships I definately would not be expecting the whole college football world (you know the most watched is FBS) to bow down to me because of FCS championships. I decided not to jump on the bandwagon like many fans in he state and they sure did not act like they have been there before. We will see if any flip once UND gets back on track. Good luck with Montana, they are no pushover in the post Crockett era....... I think it would've been interesting to see how deep NDSU could've gone with an FBS schedule during their run. I know they wouldn't have been playing Alabama for a NC but a decent bowl game would've been good for them. Maybe when the next round of move ups happen both or maybe all 4 Dakota teams can move up at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdub27 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Let's use the example of college basketball, If overnight every team in the country had 5 scholarships total, don't you think the best teams in the country would be most affected negatively? In the short term you instantly have the best teams unable to offer their 6-10 scholarship players who play a very important role on their team and those players are now playing for their rival. A team like Kentucky or Duke this past year simply doesn't exist if they cut those scholarships to 5, in the long term the balance of power stabilizes and the cream eventually rises to the top again. Let's bring the same logic to football. I don't remember the exact numbers, so if my numbers aren't perfectly accurate forgive me. For the purposes of this example, I will use only the NCC conference. Let's say there were 10 teams and each team is allowed 45 scholarships. That's 450 total scholarships players available for the conference. Ranking the NCC teams at that time, NDSU was at or very near the top every year, so they were more likely to get a player they offered than say...morningside. If those 450 scholarship players were ranked in order, NDSU at the time probably wasn't offering many kids outside of the top half of that ranking system. So anywhere from 1-225. So now drop number of scholarships to 36 for each team. That's only 360 total available scholarships for the conference. Now a kid that would have been an NDSU player in the old system(45 scholarships) is just outside of NDSU's ability to offer them because they are now out of scholarships. So some of the kids who would've have played for NDSU if they had a scholarship available are now playing for another school within the conference against NDSU. I won't go as far as to say NDSU got the pick of the litter when it comes to every recruiting battle(kids choose schools for a variety of reason, not all of which include football tradition), but NDSU was getting MORE of the best players than any other team at the time. When you cut scholarships for everyone, it creates more parity. This seemed to throw NDSU for a loop for a while for some reason, but they eventually figured it out. I'm well aware of what happened but you did lay it out for others very nicely. That being said, pretty sure you just furthered my point (possibly intentionally). NDSU fans using the cut in scholarships as an excuse for their decline is basically just a roundabout way of admitting that they were only winning because they were outspending other schools and couldn't have the same success on a "level" playing field. I'll also note that they are doing more than fine at the FCS level on a "level" playing field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I'm well aware of what happened but you did lay it out for others very nicely. That being said, pretty sure you just furthered my point (possibly intentionally). NDSU fans using the cut in scholarships as an excuse for their decline is basically just a roundabout way of admitting that they were only winning because they were outspending other schools and couldn't have the same success on a "level" playing field. I'll also note that they are doing more than fine at the FCS level on a "level" playing field. Not to take a swing at the hornets nest but could their success at the FCS level be because UND was late to the party (by 4 years) and our program was down. If UND went FCS the same time NDSU went would they have the same success? Remember UND beat a ranked UNI team in 2006 and crushed Southern Utah in 2007 with DII players and Lennon as coach. Since both ND teams recruit the same area it's not a guarantee all the stars the Bison had from 2011-2014 wouldn't have chosen them over UND. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison06 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I'm well aware of what happened but you did lay it out for others very nicely. That being said, pretty sure you just furthered my point (possibly intentionally). NDSU fans using the cut in scholarships as an excuse for their decline is basically just a roundabout way of admitting that they were only winning because they were outspending other schools and couldn't have the same success on a "level" playing field. I'll also note that they are doing more than fine at the FCS level on a "level" playing field. It is intentional. I agree that the scholarship reduction was part of the decline. Where we differ is what the scholarship reduction did. It didn't show NDSU had poor coaching or ONLY won because they had the best players. When you play a game with certain rules for a long time, you get used to winning a certain way. When the rules change, any rule, teams have to adapt to the new rules and find a new way to win. NDSU it seems, was slow to get back to an elite team. Maybe NDSU coaches were used to having a certain amount of depth at certain positions due to the extra scholarships, maybe having those extra scholarship players in practice everyday pushed the starters to be better. Who knows. Also, as others have noted, you can't stay on top forever. It isn't as if they went from winning championships to being the worst team. Looking back at the records from the "dark years" NDSU still beat UND 5 out of 10 times in the 90's. And as I said, if NDSU wins that god awful game in 2000 at Delta State(I know, big if) we are possibly talking about going 10 years in between NC's, instead of 21. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdub27 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 It is intentional. I agree that the scholarship reduction was part of the decline. Where we differ is what the scholarship reduction did. It didn't show NDSU had poor coaching or ONLY won because they had the best players. When you play a game with certain rules for a long time, you get used to winning a certain way. When the rules change, any rule, teams have to adapt to the new rules and find a new way to win. NDSU it seems, was slow to get back to an elite team. Maybe NDSU coaches were used to having a certain amount of depth at certain positions due to the extra scholarships, maybe having those extra scholarship players in practice everyday pushed the starters to be better. Who knows. Also, as others have noted, you can't stay on top forever. It isn't as if they went from winning championships to being the worst team. Looking back at the records from the "dark years" NDSU still beat UND 5 out of 10 times in the 90's. And as I said, if NDSU wins that god awful game in 2000 at Delta State(I know, big if) we are possibly talking about going 10 years in between NC's, instead of 21. I don't think we really disagree, it just seems to be a very strange excuse/argument that gets used quite a bit and I've never understood it. I think its a mixed bag of what actually happened but it seems like the only thing a good amount of NDSU fans will admit that changed was the scholarship cuts. Whenever its trotted out, its unintentionally putting down what NDSU did in the 80's. If you're going to say that the sole reason NDSU came back to the pack was because scholarships were cut, then you're alternatively saying that the sole reason they were winning is because they had more scholarships. It wasn't the only thing that changed but the scholarship reduction argument is almost always the only reason that gets used when someone says NDSU won't stay on top forever. Note that most of this isn't directed at you, we agree quite a bit on this, just a fairly accurate generalization on what typically shows up here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2011BisonAlumni Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I think it would've been interesting to see how deep NDSU could've gone with an FBS schedule during their run. I know they wouldn't have been playing Alabama for a NC but a decent bowl game would've been good for them. Maybe when the next round of move ups happen both or maybe all 4 Dakota teams can move up at the same time. If If's and But's were candy and nuts, every day would be Christmas. Better start another a hypothetical thread so you guys can debate that one. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bison73 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Roger Thomas said during the "When they were Kings" PBS special that UND had pretty much the same amount as NDSU, but was SDSU and USD funded the same as NDSU? USD did play for a national title in the 80's so they must have been pretty good, UND had poor coaching and Roger had to start at the bottom and work his way up. I think other schools lucked out with recruits and you add the right coach (UND did with Bubba and Lennon along with Thomas) and the ball swings the other way. USD went to the playoffs in the 73 season because they beat us and we lost to YSU in our last game. SDSU was just another game at that time but Mankato had a pretty good team as did UNI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molden Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 USD went to the playoffs in the 73 season because they beat us and we lost to YSU in our last game. SDSU was just another game at that time but Mankato had a pretty good team as did UNI. Was 73 the year when a USD receiver caught a game-winning TD in the end zone while lying on his back? One of our DBs knocked the ball down and it fell into the receiver's arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bison73 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Was 73 the year when a USD receiver caught a game-winning TD in the end zone while lying on his back? One of our DBs knocked the ball down and it fell into the receiver's arms. Yes. Last seconds of the game. Ball went a split hair past Greg Bensons finger tips and the guy caught it on his back. We had 1 or two TDs called back and some other idiotic coaching mistakes in that game as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petey23 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I would agree that the reduction in scholarships at the D2 Level hurt NDSU more than many other teams. One reason has been mentioned here, but I think that while having guys that would be on your depth chart lining up against you could be a factor....I think the bigger factor was that the Veer was an expensive offense to "fund" scholarship wise and it ended up hurting their depth on both sides of the football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayduke Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I would agree that the reduction in scholarships at the D2 Level hurt NDSU more than many other teams. One reason has been mentioned here, but I think that while having guys that would be on your depth chart lining up against you could be a factor....I think the bigger factor was that the Veer was an expensive offense to "fund" scholarship wise and it ended up hurting their depth on both sides of the football. I'm not doubting you, I just wanted to know why the veer offense would be hard to fund scholly-wise? More skill position players in the backfield? Just curious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayduke Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Yes. Last seconds of the game. Ball went a split hair past Greg Bensons finger tips and the guy caught it on his back. We had 1 or two TDs called back and some other idiotic coaching mistakes in that game as well. Is there a video hanging out there? I'd love to see that. (Not to rub it in, but it sounds like a great play...okay...maybe to rub it in a little... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bison73 Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Is there a video hanging out there? I'd love to see that. (Not to rub it in, but it sounds like a great play...okay...maybe to rub it in a little... )Don't know of any video. Cant remember if this was the game but we had a TD called back because our ticket manager at the time ran on the field in excitement when we returned a punt for a TD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molden Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Is there a video hanging out there? I'd love to see that. (Not to rub it in, but it sounds like a great play...okay...maybe to rub it in a little... ) Doubt that there's a video. It was pre-VHS era. I can still see it in my head. If you were for USD, yes, it was a great play. It happened at Dacotah Field in Fargo in a night game. Pretty sure of that. NDSU and UND were both very competitive at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teeder11 Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I love this thread! It's like Iraq following 9-11: it keeps the terrorists occupied and isolated in one place. I have not read a word of this thread ( ok maybe I peeked), but it sure keeps all the other threads clean. And I really like that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayduke Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I love this thread! It's like Iraq following 9-11: it keeps the terrorists occupied and isolated in one place. I have not read a word of this thread ( ok maybe I peeked), but it sure keeps all the other threads clean. And I really like that! I like this thread too. Just enough conversation sprinkled in with smack to keep it interesting. Hayduke is an eco-terrorist, so I fit right in!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 If If's and But's were candy and nuts, every day would be Christmas. Better start another a hypothetical thread so you guys can debate that one. So you smack my compliment to NDSU...you must be desperate for attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnboyND7 Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Hayduke is an eco-terrorist, so I fit right in!! You drive a big truck to compensate or??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bison73 Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Doubt that there's a video. It was pre-VHS era. I can still see it in my head. If you were for USD, yes, it was a great play. It happened at Dacotah Field in Fargo in a night game. Pretty sure of that. NDSU and UND were both very competitive at the time. You are correct. It was also pre beta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayduke Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 You drive a big truck to compensate or??? I don't drive. I do what all UND grads do...we hire an ag school flunkie to drive us around. I know that's why you hang around here. It's the way you folks network for choice jobs like that! ; o) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnboyND7 Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I don't drive. I do what all UND grads do...we hire an ag school flunkie to drive us around. I know that's why you hang around here. It's the way you folks network for choice jobs like that! ; o) Hey one of my current supervisors is a UND grad. If she asked me to drive her somewhere I'd probably do it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayduke Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Hey one of my current supervisors is a UND grad. If she asked me to drive her somewhere I'd probably do it. As well you should! Lol How many points will you give her on this game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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