UND92,96 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Why is blame only limited to Faison or Jones? Why can't the fans be to blame for not showing up? I am certainly open to any and all ideas/explanations. As Yogi Berra said: "if people don't want to come to the games, how are you going to stop them?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gfhockey Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I'd blame faison for letting it get to this point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bincitysioux Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 10 years ago, UND basketball had an average attendance of 2791 per game. A game at the Ralph against NDSU certainly helped that average, as did doubleheaders with the women's team, but nevertheless 2500-plus per game was achieved many times over the years at Hyslop. This year, the average is 1717. It has ranged from around 1600 to around 2000 for several years now. Obviously the transition really hurt things, but aren't we getting to the point where the transition is far enough in the past that it's not really an excuse anymore? Is the inability to get back to 2500 or more per game mostly the fault of Jones, Faison or both? Or is it not realistic to expect UND basketball to draw as well as it did 10-plus years ago? College basketball attendance seems to be down across the nation in recent years for whatever reason. But IMO Coach Jones gets most of the credit for the dwindling fan interest in the men's basketball program. Fans in Grand Forks want to see a winner, and except for maybe the 2010-11 team, the last 9 seasons have yielded average results in the very best seasons. Since he took over, the program is averaging 16 losses per season. For comparison, Rich Glas averaged 10 losses per season in his first 8 years, and Gunther averaged 8 losses a year in his first 8 seasons. Out of 19 head coaches in the history of the school, Jones' winning percentage ranks 15th. Yes, the transition to DI surly played a part, but the transition is over. The fact is that Jones has presided over a lot of losses during his tenure. We saw the same thing in football. Nobody wants to see their favorite Division I program lose to NAIA schools. Unfortunately we've suffered through that with both our football and men's basketball teams in the not so distant past. I think the phrase that sums up this program under Jones is, "It could have been worse"................. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southpaw Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I am certainly open to any and all ideas/explanations. As Yogi Berra said: "if people don't want to come to the games, how are you going to stop them?" People claim they want to see a winner... at home UND is 84-34 under Coach Jones. One season has been under .500 at home (09-10). Since then, here's the home record: 11-3, 13-1, 10-5, 11-3. This year it's 3-4 with five more home games. If people want to see a winner, maybe they should go to UND men's basketball games at home. I don't think the quality of the non-conference teams coming in have been that great, but UND went 8-2 at home against Big Sky teams... the teams that make up a majority of our schedule each year. Average attendance for those 10 games? 1,734. Only one game had more than 2,000 people in attendance. If a team that goes 8-2 at home and finished third in the conference the prior year can't draw more than 2,000 fans per game what is the coach and AD supposed to do about it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND-1 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 People claim they want to see a winner... at home UND is 84-34 under Coach Jones. One season has been under .500 at home (09-10). Since then, here's the home record: 11-3, 13-1, 10-5, 11-3. This year it's 3-4 with five more home games. If people want to see a winner, maybe they should go to UND men's basketball games at home. I don't think the quality of the non-conference teams coming in have been that great, but UND went 8-2 at home against Big Sky teams... the teams that make up a majority of our schedule each year. Average attendance for those 10 games? 1,734. Only one game had more than 2,000 people in attendance. If a team that goes 8-2 at home and finished third in the conference the prior year can't draw more than 2,000 fans per game what is the coach and AD supposed to do about it? So the fans are oblivious to the other games on the schedule? I believe they write articles about all those losses, also. If a team has a .500 or worse record, the fans know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMSioux Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 10 years ago, UND basketball had an average attendance of 2791 per game. A game at the Ralph against NDSU certainly helped that average, as did doubleheaders with the women's team, but nevertheless 2500-plus per game was achieved many times over the years at Hyslop. This year, the average is 1717. It has ranged from around 1600 to around 2000 for several years now. Obviously the transition really hurt things, but aren't we getting to the point where the transition is far enough in the past that it's not really an excuse anymore? Is the inability to get back to 2500 or more per game mostly the fault of Jones, Faison or both? Or is it not realistic to expect UND basketball to draw as well as it did 10-plus years ago? Do you think the move away from doubleheaders has had any impact - not that they had any choice and they will never go back to that. But it used to be you got two games for the price of one. I think some of the "on the fence" fans just don't want to go to basketball games that often and also tend to choose games to attend (men's or women's) depending on the opponent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choyt3 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Do you think the move away from doubleheaders has had any impact - not that they had any choice and they will never go back to that. But it used to be you got two games for the price of one. I think some of the "on the fence" fans just don't want to go to basketball games that often and also tend to choose games to attend (men's or women's) depending on the opponent. In my opinion, that is a HUGE factor. Back in the successful DII days, one of the teams (men or women) was going to be entertaining to watch on any given night. And sometimes they both were. There were times that people came early for the women's game, then left early during the men's. Or they might come half way through a women's game and stay for the whole men's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 In my opinion, that is a HUGE factor. Back in the successful DII days, one of the teams (men or women) was going to be entertaining to watch on any given night. And sometimes they both were. There were times that people came early for the women's game, then left early during the men's. Or they might come half way through a women's game and stay for the whole men's. It's kind of interesting to look back at the attendance numbers for Rich Glas's last season. Officially, UND averaged 2285 that season--more than any season under Jones. But in reality, by halftime of most men's games, the actual number of people in the seats dwindled to 1000 or less. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 People claim they want to see a winner... at home UND is 84-34 under Coach Jones. One season has been under .500 at home (09-10). Since then, here's the home record: 11-3, 13-1, 10-5, 11-3. This year it's 3-4 with five more home games. If people want to see a winner, maybe they should go to UND men's basketball games at home. I don't think the quality of the non-conference teams coming in have been that great, but UND went 8-2 at home against Big Sky teams... the teams that make up a majority of our schedule each year. Average attendance for those 10 games? 1,734. Only one game had more than 2,000 people in attendance. If a team that goes 8-2 at home and finished third in the conference the prior year can't draw more than 2,000 fans per game what is the coach and AD supposed to do about it? All I can really speculate is like UND-1 said. Winning at home is great, but when you end up right around .500 for the season during the good years, it apparently isn't enough to make the non-hardcore fans stand up and take notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bincitysioux Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I don't think one can stress how important it is to the fans in and around Grand Forks to put a winning product on the floor/ice/field. And I don't mean .500 or better winning product, I mean in the hunt for a conference title winning product. UND women's basketball is 2nd in the Big Sky in attendance by a wide margin and I have no doubt that is mainly because they win a lot of games and they are expected to win a lot of games. The crowd and atmosphere at last year's Big Sky Women's Championship is a great example of the fan base's desire to support a winner. The men are 3rd in the conference in attendance. There is a huge drop off after Weber, and then another after Montana. But the men's team is at a place, and it has been for a long time, where a win against a quality opponent is almost a surprise. Watching them get annihilated in a one week span on TV by Minnesota and then NDSU did very little to entice people to head to the ticket office. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxbow6 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 When I was in school...I won't say in class...MBB and WBB was as big if not bigger than hockey. Boschee, Vonesh, Gulseth, Robertson......they were winners and the Slop was packed night in and night out. Winning team bring in fans...especially casual fans. I tire of the excuses on this site from cold weather, no money, no fan support, the transition and "no-win" situations for programs that struggle to compete and win like MBB now and the Muss era FB teams. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Here's a little factoid....Brian Jones has led only 2 UND teams during his time to an average home attendance of 2000 or more. TWICE!! Prior to him joining UND the attendance went from 2152-4943. (of course some of these numbers were during the Hyslop era going back to 1991-92 (thanks to the wiki for the numbers). 2045 in 2011-12 thanks to hosting NDSU at the Ralph, and 2189 in 2006-07 Jones' coaching debut. This season UND has an average of 1728 which is down from 1839 last year, while the women are averaging 1757 (29 more than the men), which is almost 200 more than last year (1569). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdub27 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Here's a little factoid....Brian Jones has led only 2 UND teams during his time to an average home attendance of 2000 or more. TWICE!! Prior to him joining UND the attendance went from 2152-4943. (of course some of these numbers were during the Hyslop era going back to 1991-92 (thanks to the wiki for the numbers). 2045 in 2011-12 thanks to hosting NDSU at the Ralph, and 2189 in 2006-07 Jones' coaching debut. This season UND has an average of 1728 which is down from 1839 last year, while the women are averaging 1757 (29 more than the men), which is almost 200 more than last year (1569). Put the women's numbers out there for a fair comparison. Your numbers very closely coincide with the discontinuation of double headers for the most part which, while not the only reason for a drop in attendance, definitely plays a factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Put the women's numbers out there for a fair comparison. Your numbers very closely coincide with the discontinuation of double headers for the most part which, while not the only reason for a drop in attendance, definitely plays a factor. I wish they would have doubleheaders is there BSC teams that have them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdub27 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I wish they would have doubleheaders is there BSC teams that have them? No, the men and women teams typically have opposite schedules, for example UND WBB played at UM and MSU this weekend while UND MBB hosted UM and MSU. There was a double header against SUU both here and there last year for some reason last year, but don't recall why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandalay Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Here's a little factoid....Brian Jones has led only 2 UND teams during his time to an average home attendance of 2000 or more. TWICE!! Prior to him joining UND the attendance went from 2152-4943. (of course some of these numbers were during the Hyslop era going back to 1991-92 (thanks to the wiki for the numbers). 2045 in 2011-12 thanks to hosting NDSU at the Ralph, and 2189 in 2006-07 Jones' coaching debut. This season UND has an average of 1728 which is down from 1839 last year, while the women are averaging 1757 (29 more than the men), which is almost 200 more than last year (1569). No question. The loss of traditional regional rivals has had a huge impact on attendance. For sure. Good point Darrell! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Dakota Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 No, the men and women teams typically have opposite schedules, for example UND WBB played at UM and MSU this weekend while UND MBB hosted UM and MSU. There was a double header against SUU both here and there last year for some reason last year, but don't recall why. This is another thing that defies logic. Wouldn't travel expenses be cut at least a little if the men's and women's teams traveled together? That's never made much sense to me. Why exactly does the BSC do this?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdub27 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Here's a little factoid....Brian Jones has led only 2 UND teams during his time to an average home attendance of 2000 or more. TWICE!! Prior to him joining UND the attendance went from 2152-4943. (of course some of these numbers were during the Hyslop era going back to 1991-92 (thanks to the wiki for the numbers). 2045 in 2011-12 thanks to hosting NDSU at the Ralph, and 2189 in 2006-07 Jones' coaching debut. This season UND has an average of 1728 which is down from 1839 last year, while the women are averaging 1757 (29 more than the men), which is almost 200 more than last year (1569). Taking a look at the wiki, the women's numbers have followed a very similar trajectory as the men's. I will give you that the women are up this year, which is to be expected after returning a large nucleus from last year but you single out certain games for the men's to explain bumps in attendance but then didn't mention the Minnesota game the women hosted this year where the attendance was over 2,700 (without that game, attendance would be up about 100 over last year instead of 200). I don't think attendance numbers are the "factoid" you think they are for this argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bincitysioux Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 This is another thing that defies logic. Wouldn't travel expenses be cut at least a little if the men's and women's teams traveled together? That's never made much sense to me. Why exactly does the BSC do this?? I don't think there are any DI conferences that regularly have double headers, although I think Summit has one or two a year, or at least NDSU does. In UND's case, a school where women's basketball draws well, the mirror scheduling essentially provides double the revenue that double-headers would. The travel savings would be minimal, because you still have to buy the same amount of airline tickets and hotel rooms, etc...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bincitysioux Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 It is kind of interesting to look back at the attendance numbers for all 4 Dakota schools individually during their final DII years, independent years, and first few years with conference affiliation. For each school I looked at the final four years of DII, the four years of DI independent status (3 in the case of USD), and the first 3 years of membership with an established DI conference. UND is the only school of the four whose average attendence in its first three years with an established conference is lower than it was during its independent years. UND is the only school of the four whose attendence declined every year in each of its last four DII seasons. UND is the only school of the four that had an overall losing record in the 11 year window that I looked at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDPritch Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 They still show up thinking Boschees, Vonesh, Gulseth, et al are going come running out on the floor...Hey, I'm an old guy and it's sad the amount of "youngsters" (under 35?) that make the games. The only time the students even half show up is for free pizza, NDSU or Min. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWSiouxMN Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Hey, I'm an old guy and it's sad the amount of "youngsters" (under 35?) that make the games. The only time the students even half show up is for free pizza, NDSU or Min. You forgot priority for hockey too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoDakFan Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Hey, I'm an old guy and it's sad the amount of "youngsters" (under 35?) that make the games. The only time the students even half show up is for free pizza, NDSU or Min. No, thats the only time the "student section" fills up. I've noticed that a lot of students that go, go up into the stands to sit in the nicer seats that are left open. Granted,it's not like we turn out in droves for basketball games, but we're usually just spread out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 BSC Attendance: 1. WSU 6901 +67 2. UM 3468 -94 3. UND 1728 -111 4. EWU 1694 +485 5. MSU 1561 -698 6. ISU 1511 -279 7. SUU 1474 -74 8. NAU 1425 +59 9. UNC 1252 -73 10. Idaho 1100 -330 11. Sac St 815 +84 12. PSU 668 -204 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cratter Posted February 27, 2015 Author Share Posted February 27, 2015 Third place not bad....considering 3rd is the highest we can get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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