College Hockey Expansion

[The Sicatoka]

Just now, southpaw said:

Where does your 3,000 average attendance drop for MN come from?  They averaged more than 9,000 fans per game last year.  Just because people don't show up doesn't mean the tickets aren't sold.

I spot checked three seasons (2011, 2014, 2017) at USCHO.
From 2011 to 2017 Wisconsin's average is down 3000.
From 2014 to 2017 Minnesota's average is down 2000. (So my $1.8M is $1.2M. I can live with that; my point holds.) 

Their gates are down, their dollars are down, and their fan interest is down. 

 

 

[southpaw]

6 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

I spot checked three seasons (2011, 2014, 2017) at USCHO.
From 2011 to 2017 Wisconsin's average is down 3000.
From 2014 to 2017 Minnesota's average is down 2000. (So my $1.8M is $1.2M. I can live with that; my point holds.) 

Their gates are down, their dollars are down, and their fan interest is down. 

 

 

Weird,  because using USCHO's reported numbers from 2010-11 and CHN's 2016-17 which are both based on reported Box Scores, the numbers are nearly identical:

2010-11 - 9,544 per game.

2016-17 - 9,568 per game

Your 13-14 that showed the average at 11,000+ was due to 45,000 showing up to an outdoor game.

 

[cberkas]

Minnesota fans are not showing up because they don't want to be in the B1G for hockey, and North Dakota isn't going to change that. The only positive of joining the B1G for hockey is to get BTN money and they will say that UND has their Midco deal and we won't share any BTN money.

[The Sicatoka]

1 minute ago, southpaw said:

Weird,  because using USCHO's reported numbers from 2010-11 and CHN's 2016-17 which are both based on reported Box Scores, the numbers are nearly identical:

2010-11 - 9,544 per game.

2016-17 - 9,568 per game

Your 13-14 that showed the average at 11,000+ was due to 45,000 showing up to an outdoor game.

I didn't drill that deep. I just took the USCHO numbers at face value. < shrug > 

So, throw out the Minnesota numbers. Do Minnesota hockey fans want UND back (think: fan interest). That alone is worth it. Engaged fans are easier to separate from their dollars.

[The Sicatoka]

3 minutes ago, cberkas said:

Minnesota fans are not showing up because they don't want to be in the B1G for hockey, and North Dakota isn't going to change that. The only positive of joining the B1G for hockey is to get BTN money and they will say that UND has their Midco deal and we won't share any BTN money.

That's a point for negotiation. If they are coming to UND and asking, UND can ask for and get what it needs or it can politely say, "Thanks but no thanks." 

[Yote 53]

For the BIG it is better to buy than to rent.  In the LONG TERM, they would be better off keeping that $4mill/year that they would send off to Grand Forks in-house and using it as seed money for Husker/Hawkeye/Illini/Wildcat hockey programs.  A $4 million dollar/year commitment over ten years could do that.  Build the programs from within the BIG membership and grow those revenues from within.  Get one or two PSU's out of that bunch and it would be jackpot.

Having UND as an affiliate is a rental situation.  Minnesota and Wisconsin never move their programs forward.  It ends up being a break-up where they see and pine for the old girlfriend every day.  For Minnesota it's not just UND, it's SCSU, UMD, MSU-M that are also issues.  There is a segment of the Minnesota hockey population that will never get over not being in the same conference as their in-state rivals.  Even with the superiority complex they have over them, which is odd.

[cberkas]

17 minutes ago, Yote 53 said:

For the BIG it is better to buy than to rent.  In the LONG TERM, they would be better off keeping that $4mill/year that they would send off to Grand Forks in-house and using it as seed money for Husker/Hawkeye/Illini/Wildcat hockey programs.  A $4 million dollar/year commitment over ten years could do that.  Build the programs from within the BIG membership and grow those revenues from within.  Get one or two PSU's out of that bunch and it would be jackpot.

Having UND as an affiliate is a rental situation.  Minnesota and Wisconsin never move their programs forward.  It ends up being a break-up where they see and pine for the old girlfriend every day.  For Minnesota it's not just UND, it's SCSU, UMD, MSU-M that are also issues.  There is a segment of the Minnesota hockey population that will never get over not being in the same conference as their in-state rivals.  Even with the superiority complex they have over them, which is odd.

Any money that B1G schools get from the B1G is going to existing sports and facility upgrades. Nebraska still needs to payoff their new arena. Unless a school in the B1G gets a big donation they are not adding hockey. 

UND just cut women's hockey that should tell you they are not joining the B1G.

A school that want in the B1G is UConn.

[UNDBIZ]

19 minutes ago, cberkas said:

Any money that B1G schools get from the B1G is going to existing sports and facility upgrades. Nebraska still needs to payoff their new arena. Unless a school in the B1G gets a big donation they are not adding hockey. 

UND just cut women's hockey that should tell you they are not joining the B1G.

A school that want in the B1G is UConn.

What does WIH have to do with joining the B1G in MIH?

[Cratter]

2 hours ago, UNDBIZ said:

"Omaha can never go all D1. UNebraska will never allow it."

[Cratter]

1 hour ago, southpaw said:

Where does your 3,000 average attendance drop for MN come from?  They averaged more than 9,000 fans per game last year.  Just because people don't show up doesn't mean the tickets aren't sold.  

Time to overbook, just like the airlines.

[Brucesky02]

8 minutes ago, Cratter said:

Time to overbook, just like the airlines.

Can you imagine if they tried to take someone out of their seat at the Ralph? "We've oversold the UM games...you'll be rebooked for the St. Cloud series."

[Yote 53]

41 minutes ago, cberkas said:

Any money that B1G schools get from the B1G is going to existing sports and facility upgrades. Nebraska still needs to payoff their new arena. Unless a school in the B1G gets a big donation they are not adding hockey. 

UND just cut women's hockey that should tell you they are not joining the B1G.

A school that want in the B1G is UConn.

And, with that statement, wouldn't it also be reasonable to say that any money the BIG gets is going to stay inside the BIG to be spent on existing sports and facility upgrades rather than shipping it up to UND?

The BIG could easily set up a program that incentivizes member schools to start a hockey program by offering them $3-4 million per year for the first 10 years or so to get them off the ground and make the startup costs more bearable.  It could come in the form of a direct grant from the league office for the specified purpose of men's ice hockey.  This money would come from the pool of money that is retained for BIG conference administration.  You know, not all the money is distributed to the member schools, league office retains some of it for administration.

[Ray77]

3 minutes ago, Brucesky02 said:

Can you imagine if they tried to take someone out of their seat at the Ralph? "We've oversold the UM games...you'll be rebooked for the St. Cloud series."

[The Sicatoka]

RE: the own or rent analogy

What if owning is too expensive. Look at PSU. It took nearly a Ralph* to get them off the ground. All at once. The rest of the B1G has seen that. A $3-4 million nudge per year for 10 years is not the same.

The question isn't "rent or own"; it's do we want an eighth team. 

 

 

*Ralph (noun): the fiscal equivalent of $113 million dollars. 

[cberkas]

42 minutes ago, UNDBIZ said:

What does WIH have to do with joining the B1G in MIH?

Because if UND was getting BTN money they would be able to keep the women's team and not cut any sports.

[petey23]

2 hours ago, southpaw said:

You're massively overestimating the number of UND fans who would watch/travel to B10 games.

Initially I think it would be huge. Especially in October and November.

UND is playing at Ohio St. and the Buckeyes have a home football game......hmmm

Same holds true for any of these schools. All of them would be fun College football game day experiences to take in while traveling to watch our hockey team take care of business.

[cberkas]

1 hour ago, Yote 53 said:

And, with that statement, wouldn't it also be reasonable to say that any money the BIG gets is going to stay inside the BIG to be spent on existing sports and facility upgrades rather than shipping it up to UND?

The BIG could easily set up a program that incentivizes member schools to start a hockey program by offering them $3-4 million per year for the first 10 years or so to get them off the ground and make the startup costs more bearable.  It could come in the form of a direct grant from the league office for the specified purpose of men's ice hockey.  This money would come from the pool of money that is retained for BIG conference administration.  You know, not all the money is distributed to the member schools, league office retains some of it for administration.

The schools without hockey would just use the money for their other sports, and all but 2 need a major donation like Penn State.

[Yote 53]

51 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

RE: the own or rent analogy

What if owning is too expensive. Look at PSU. It took nearly a Ralph* to get them off the ground. All at once. The rest of the B1G has seen that. A $3-4 million nudge per year for 10 years is not the same.

The question isn't "rent or own"; it's do we want an eighth team. 

 

 

*Ralph (noun): the fiscal equivalent of $113 million dollars. 

Ehh.  A huge chunk of that money was used to build a new arena for PSU hockey.  Nebraska has Pinnacle Bank Arena.  Iowa has a potential arena in Coralville.  Northwestern has access to several arenas in the Chicagoland area they could rent.  The arena is the biggest hurdle to fielding a team. 

$3-4 million dollars per year would go along way to fund the program initially until donations can be built up or maybe even the program becomes a big enough revenue generator to self-fund.

[Yote 53]

2 minutes ago, cberkas said:

The schools without hockey would just use the money for their other sports, and all but 2 need a major donation like Penn State.

The school only gets the $3-4 million grant from the league office if they start a hockey team, and the funds are a direct grant and can be used for no other purpose.  If a school doesn't start up a team they don't receive a grant, so don't see how they could spend it on other things.

Actually, I believe this idea has already been floated by the league and the number was $2 million of seed money to start a program.

[The Sicatoka]

12 minutes ago, Yote 53 said:

Actually, I believe this idea has already been floated by the league and the number was $2 million of seed money to start a program.

And look at all the takers.

[Yote 53]

Hence, sweeten the pot.

[Siouxperfan7]

Hockey is struggling at the college level for attendance in the "State of Hockey".  Even at the biggest University in the state!  How do you think schools like Iowa and Nebraska think it will do at their schools?!! 

[cberkas]

Unless the B1G gives out $100 million to members to start a program it's not happening with B1G money.

[UNDBIZ]

1 hour ago, cberkas said:

Because if UND was getting BTN money they would be able to keep the women's team and not cut any sports.

Meh, I like the thought that Faison and Kennedy saw WIH as the financial black hole that it is and they would've prioritized an extra $2 million in revenue toward more important things.  With that said, I believe I remember seeing the B1G hockey schools get an additional $2 million from the BTN over what the other schools get.  If that's correct, does anyone know if that's $2 million total to be split among them or $2 million each?  I think we're all probably overestimating the value the BTN places on hockey.

[Yote 53]

22 minutes ago, Siouxperfan7 said:

Hockey is struggling at the college level for attendance in the "State of Hockey".  Even at the biggest University in the state!  How do you think schools like Iowa and Nebraska think it will do at their schools?!! 

At Iowa or Nebraska?  Probably somewhere between OSU and PSU attendance-wise would be my guess.  So not that bad, and better than most in college hockey.