College Hockey Expansion

[#MACtion]

Ohio St hasn't become a world beater. Miami is a far better program. How could that be? The Pig 10 isn't the top hockey league and the PAC12 or SEC won't be either. UND isn't afraid if USC or the Tide joining college hockey. You seem to be saying we should.

 

 

Doesn't matter if Ohio State Hockey isn't as good as Miami Hockey - the fact is that Miami would much rather be televised regionally on Fox Sports Ohio instead of Time Warner SportsChannel but Fox Sports Ohio instead chooses to broadcast only Ohio State Hockey games and could care less if OSU is terrible or not, they won't show Miami and OSU wants it that way.  And if Fox Sports Ohio wants any other OSU sports coverage, than they better listen.

 

NBC doesn't care if Notre Dame is bad at hockey and Western Michigan is better or even North Dakota - NBC shows only Notre Dame because that is the name brand that fans not familiar with hockey will watch.  Notre Dame can also demand that they show exclusively ND hockey and NBC will cave because NBC doesn't want to risk losing ND Football.  Big Ten will do the same and already is.  Whomever wins the next Big Ten TV contract (Fox or ESPN) will be required to show Big Ten hockey regardless if they are crap or not or draw flies for ratings or not because they MUST if they want the other part of the contract.  The same will happen with the PAC-12.  ESPN may start showing some college hockey games, but it won't be North Dakota, just Big Ten conference games.

 

Believe what you want, but North Dakota Hockey can only go so far not being in a Football Power Conference once those Football Power Conferences enter the hockey ring.

 

Villanova Basketball is a storied program, rich in tradition, is in a solid basketball-only conference (for now....), draws good attendance, and is talented enough to win the basketball National Championship on any given year (for now...)  - BUT if the Big Ten tells Fox Sports they can have the next Big Ten Conference TV package rights if they drop Villanova and the Big East like its hot......  guess what Fox is gonna do?  regardless if the Big Ten is bad or not?  The Big Ten will absolutely demand that Fox or ESPN or whomever give the Big Ten the prime-time slots, and biggest promotions, etc...  Big East basketball is meaningless in the big picture in that scenario and I do think the Big East, Atlantic 10 basketball schools such as Villanova and Georgetown are gonna be rendered less meaningful in the future and will have a hard time keeping up with stipends and exposure in the long run..

 

North Dakota Hockey = Villanova Basketball and the NCHC = The Big East.

 

The same thing is coming for hockey and the Power Football Conference 500-lb Gorillas will make it happen...

[nodak651]

Given this thory, why would you be opposed to the NCHC taking a big name school in asu? The pac hockey conference isn't going to pop up over night. We will enjoy the benefits for 10 + years...

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

Doesn't matter if Ohio State Hockey isn't as good as Miami Hockey - the fact is that Miami would much rather be televised regionally on Fox Sports Ohio instead of Time Warner SportsChannel but Fox Sports Ohio instead chooses to broadcast only Ohio State Hockey games and could care less if OSU is terrible or not, they won't show Miami and OSU wants it that way.  And if Fox Sports Ohio wants any other OSU sports coverage, than they better listen.

 

NBC doesn't care if Notre Dame is bad at hockey and Western Michigan is better or even North Dakota - NBC shows only Notre Dame because that is the name brand that fans not familiar with hockey will watch.  Notre Dame can also demand that they show exclusively ND hockey and NBC will cave because NBC doesn't want to risk losing ND Football.  Big Ten will do the same and already is.  Whomever wins the next Big Ten TV contract (Fox or ESPN) will be required to show Big Ten hockey regardless if they are crap or not or draw flies for ratings or not because they MUST if they want the other part of the contract.  The same will happen with the PAC-12.  ESPN may start showing some college hockey games, but it won't be North Dakota, just Big Ten conference games.

 

Believe what you want, but North Dakota Hockey can only go so far not being in a Football Power Conference once those Football Power Conferences enter the hockey ring.

 

Villanova Basketball is a storied program, rich in tradition, is in a solid basketball-only conference (for now....), draws good attendance, and is talented enough to win the basketball National Championship on any given year (for now...)  - BUT if the Big Ten tells Fox Sports they can have the next Big Ten Conference TV package rights if they drop Villanova and the Big East like its hot......  guess what Fox is gonna do?  regardless if the Big Ten is bad or not?  The Big Ten will absolutely demand that Fox or ESPN or whomever give the Big Ten the prime-time slots, and biggest promotions, etc...  Big East basketball is meaningless in the big picture in that scenario and I do think the Big East, Atlantic 10 basketball schools such as Villanova and Georgetown are gonna be rendered less meaningful in the future and will have a hard time keeping up with stipends and exposure in the long run..

 

North Dakota Hockey = Villanova Basketball and the NCHC = The Big East.

 

The same thing is coming for hockey and the Power Football Conference 500-lb Gorillas will make it happen...

 

So you use Notre Dame as an example but in your theory, shouldn't that they will be getting better recruits, fielding better teams, having some success at the national level since they have the NBC network showing their games?

 

I think you may be relying too heavily on football and basketball and projecting it onto hockey when it's an apples and oranges comparison.

 

I guess it would help if you could clarify the statement 'UND can only go so far without being in a power football conference'.

 

So we are somehow hindered by being in a conference where all of the schools put a majority of resources towards their college hockey recruiting, facilities, equipment etc. as opposed to being in a conference (Big 10) that lists hockey 3rd in importance of sports?

[brianvf]

Believe what you want, but North Dakota Hockey can only go so far not being in a Football Power Conference once those Football Power Conferences enter the hockey ring.

 

Might as well fold up the program.

[cberkas]

I don't know why people think the Pac 12 hockey conference is going to start over night because Arizona State is going NCAA D1. As of right now only one other Pac 12 school is being discussed about moving up and that is Arizona, I think that their ACHA division (WCHL) would make a move before any other Pac 12 teams do outside of Arizona and Colorado ( WCHL teams: Arizona State, Colorado, Colorado State, Oklahoma, Central Oklahoma, and Arizona). If Pac 12 does start and Arizona State leaves the NCHC the NCHC could do a NCHC/Pac 12 Challenge like the B1G/Hockey East Challenge. The WCHA did the same thing when Hockey East started.

 

I don't see the B1G ever adding schools form other Power 5 conferences because the B1G isn't going to share revenue with/or broadcasting on other Power 5 conferences networks (SEC Network and Pac 12 Network). Schools like Arizona State, Iowa State, and Alabama has only two options the NCHC or the WCHA.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if NBC is trying to get NCHC games on NBCSN, North Dakota gets talked about during NHL games and everyone knows Pierre McGuire wants NBC to go to Grand Forks to show games. The CBS deal handcuffed the NCHC and now the NCHC is seeing opportunities to get Fox Sports. You can thank the B1G for Fox Sports getting NCHC games on Fox Sports North. When it comes to ESPN showing games, it doesn't look good for ESPN showing games at mostly empty arenas and it's not going to get the casual fan to tune in and watch a game. Have ESPN come to Grand Forks or Miami and have a full arena on TV when you can hear the crowd get into the game.

[bale31]

My opinion here is certainly unsolicited and probably unwanted, but as someone who has no allegiance to the NCHC or Big Ten I think it gives a bit of a different perspective. I also say this not as someone who wants to pick a fight. I've been relatively welcomed here and don't really want to wear out my welcome cause there are very few places to talk about college hockey. Now that my disclaimers are out of the way...

 

I think MACtion is 100% right. Everything that's happening in college hockey and any other sport not named basketball or football, is because of football. Football, especially, is what makes moeny for schools and keeps all of the other sports afloat in the 5 power conferences. Without football, the old WCHA would still be in tact because BTN wouldn't make financial sense and neither would any other conference affiliated networks. No one is saying that a school needs to have a power conference football team, but the reality is that is what makes a difference. 

 

I think the problem with why there are so many disagreements about this is that it's hard for hard-core college hockey fans to understand why the names Arizona State, Penn State, and Notre Dame mean more than names like North Dakota and Miami (OH). They mean more because casual fans and people that may flip on a hockey game by happenstance will do it for the former, but not the latter. There was a comment that ESPN would want to put on a UND or Miami game first because there will be a full arena and you'll be able to hear the crowd on TV. The problem is that no one would hear it on their TV because no one would turn it on. That's what matters. Hard-core college hockey fans will turn it on, but they are going to seek it out regardless. The people that would expand the pie will not seek it out and won't flip it on by accident. That would be like any of us flipping on a volleyball game by Western Kentucky for anything other than the spandex. It just won't happen. 

 

As for what conference Arizona State ends up in (and I don't necessarily think it's a lock that it's the NCHC), it lends instant credibility to that league. If it's the WCHA, they jump in front of the NCHC from a national, casual viewer's perspective. That's not to say I think they will end up there, but those are the stakes in my opinion. Now, there is the question about Pac12 hockey. If it happens, I think it will happen sooner rather than later. "Let's Play Hockey" has been all over this story. They were the ones that first started the conversation about ASU about a week before it was announced. They are also talking about Arizona, Stanford and USC now and Bill Robertson is meeting with USC before the first of the year, apparently. Again, I think it happens sooner rather than later. Who knows what that means for the current conferences though.

[JaySioux]

I could see Stanford considering the addition of hockey. They have so many more sports thean most schools as it is and with the Sharks being in the area for over 20 years now there should be added interest. And it is a school that financially is pretty well off and should be able to add if they choose to.

[cberkas]

Let's Play Hockey @LetsPlay_Hockey  ·  2h 2 hours ago

According to WCHA sources, officials are hopeful of connecting with USC before the new year as to their interest in Division I hockey.

[bang]

Here's my take. I don't care if you're a football school, you play some games on ESPN and there which if it's not FBS football doesn't mean much cause we all know they'll delay it for a high school sport or lacrosse anyway. What matters is your fan base. Kids want to go play in front of a crowd where the facilities are superb and UND has it.

A blue chipper is not going to want to play second, third, fourth fiddle to a bunch of other sports on his own campus just so he can play a couple of regular season games on ESPN or Fox. They ultimately want to play that big game at the end on ESPN and his regular season home games in front of 11,500 in the best rink in the nation.

I haven't looked for a couple years but a few years ago Ohio State averaged 1,700. I know it's improved but I bet there is more UND fans at a Denver UND game at Magness Arena than Ohio State fans in their own rink.

What I'm saying is what matters to hardcore college hockey fans is winning. These TV contracts aren't what we want. Half the time these !@#!$ contracts prevent us from watching UND anyway. I wouldn't mind Fox but these other national TV stations Root, CBSSN, NBCSN and especially ESPN all suck at covering college hockey and I doubt the money they pay is all that high.

Alright I'm done. UND hockey is fine and will be for quite some time. These new big schools will have a steep road to climb some will make it some won't, but along the way some of those big schools will get to play a Saturday afternoon game in front of 2000 people in a 15,000 seat arena joined in progress on NBCSN after a Syracuse vs Villanova women's badketball game. How exciting for those kids.

[nodak651]

I don't buy the TV viewership numbers some of you are claiming... The last numbers I saw showed that UND drew pretty well in comparison to big name schools.

[MafiaMan]

So what if "brand-name" teams use us as stepping stones. Michigan, Michigan St, and Notre Dame moved on a long time ago from the WCHA, but their stay is still remembered fondly by WCHA and now NCHC fans.

No way. I bet most current WCHA and NCHC fans had no idea that the Wolverines, Spartans, and Fighting Irish used to play in the same conference as North Dakota and other schools.

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

My opinion here is certainly unsolicited and probably unwanted, but as someone who has no allegiance to the NCHC or Big Ten I think it gives a bit of a different perspective. I also say this not as someone who wants to pick a fight. I've been relatively welcomed here and don't really want to wear out my welcome cause there are very few places to talk about college hockey. Now that my disclaimers are out of the way...

 

I think MACtion is 100% right. Everything that's happening in college hockey and any other sport not named basketball or football, is because of football. Football, especially, is what makes moeny for schools and keeps all of the other sports afloat in the 5 power conferences. Without football, the old WCHA would still be in tact because BTN wouldn't make financial sense and neither would any other conference affiliated networks. No one is saying that a school needs to have a power conference football team, but the reality is that is what makes a difference. 

 

I think the problem with why there are so many disagreements about this is that it's hard for hard-core college hockey fans to understand why the names Arizona State, Penn State, and Notre Dame mean more than names like North Dakota and Miami (OH). They mean more because casual fans and people that may flip on a hockey game by happenstance will do it for the former, but not the latter. There was a comment that ESPN would want to put on a UND or Miami game first because there will be a full arena and you'll be able to hear the crowd on TV. The problem is that no one would hear it on their TV because no one would turn it on. That's what matters. Hard-core college hockey fans will turn it on, but they are going to seek it out regardless. The people that would expand the pie will not seek it out and won't flip it on by accident. That would be like any of us flipping on a volleyball game by Western Kentucky for anything other than the spandex. It just won't happen. 

 

As for what conference Arizona State ends up in (and I don't necessarily think it's a lock that it's the NCHC), it lends instant credibility to that league. If it's the WCHA, they jump in front of the NCHC from a national, casual viewer's perspective. That's not to say I think they will end up there, but those are the stakes in my opinion. Now, there is the question about Pac12 hockey. If it happens, I think it will happen sooner rather than later. "Let's Play Hockey" has been all over this story. They were the ones that first started the conversation about ASU about a week before it was announced. They are also talking about Arizona, Stanford and USC now and Bill Robertson is meeting with USC before the first of the year, apparently. Again, I think it happens sooner rather than later. Who knows what that means for the current conferences though.

 

I agree with what you say about casual fans flipping on games but don't think that is the end all be all for a college hockey team's health.  I think you'd be hard pressed arguing that either Notre Dame or Penn State is in a "better" position in college hockey than North Dakota.  That's why I think, in general, we will still be getting recruits over both of these schools. We have better facilities, fans, coaches(some may disagree ), tradition, and NHL alumni than any of schools you mentioned. That's not something that can bet trumped by a TV network showing 1/2 or even 1/4 full arenas. If I'm a blue chip recruit and have the choice of playing in front of 12k at one of the best facilities in the world where hockey is the biggest show in town and has developed players like Toews, Oshie, Parise, Stafford etc. or going to Penn State or Notre Dame because they have cool HD cameras but no one shows up for games, I'll pick UND every time.  

 

You say that Arizona St, Penn St, and Notre Dame mean more than North Dakota and you're right in the general sense, but not when it comes to hockey. Again, this is my opinion and you're not required to agree with it so just my 2 cents.

[nodak651]

I don't buy the TV viewership numbers some of you are claiming... The last numbers I saw showed that UND drew pretty well in comparison to big name schools.

From 2013.. http://www.sbnation.com/college-hockey/2013/2/16/3995742/north-dakota-vs-nebraska-omaha-draws-nbc-sports-network-college

Nov. 30, Boston College vs. Boston University - 87,000 viewers

Nov. 30, Wisconsin vs. Denver - 74,000 viewers

Dec. 1, Boston University vs. Boston College - 53,000 viewers

Dec. 5, Vermont vs. Dartmouth - 45,000 viewers

Dec. 7, Michigan State vs. Notre Dame - 98,000 viewers

Jan. 4, Colorado College vs. Nebraska-Omaha - 30,000 viewers

Jan. 9, Harvard vs. Boston College - 86,000 viewers

Jan. 11, Union vs. Princeton - 66,000 viewers

Jan. 11, Nebraska-Omaha vs. Denver - 38,000 viewers

Jan. 17, Providence vs. UMass-Lowell - 53,000 viewers

Jan. 18, Harvard vs. Yale - 63,000 viewers

Jan. 25, Yale vs. Cornell - 45,000 viewers

Feb. 1, Dartmouth vs. Union - 41,000 viewers

Feb. 8, North Dakota vs. Nebraska-Omaha - 146,000 viewers

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

 

From 2013.. http://www.sbnation.com/college-hockey/2013/2/16/3995742/north-dakota-vs-nebraska-omaha-draws-nbc-sports-network-college

Nov. 30, Boston College vs. Boston University - 87,000 viewers

Nov. 30, Wisconsin vs. Denver - 74,000 viewers

Dec. 1, Boston University vs. Boston College - 53,000 viewers

Dec. 5, Vermont vs. Dartmouth - 45,000 viewers

Dec. 7, Michigan State vs. Notre Dame - 98,000 viewers

Jan. 4, Colorado College vs. Nebraska-Omaha - 30,000 viewers

Jan. 9, Harvard vs. Boston College - 86,000 viewers

Jan. 11, Union vs. Princeton - 66,000 viewers

Jan. 11, Nebraska-Omaha vs. Denver - 38,000 viewers

Jan. 17, Providence vs. UMass-Lowell - 53,000 viewers

Jan. 18, Harvard vs. Yale - 63,000 viewers

Jan. 25, Yale vs. Cornell - 45,000 viewers

Feb. 1, Dartmouth vs. Union - 41,000 viewers

Feb. 8, North Dakota vs. Nebraska-Omaha - 146,000 viewers

 

 

It's amazing 2 teams that don't have prominent football teams can draw 146k in viewers

[SiouxVolley]

No way. I bet most current WCHA and NCHC fans had no idea that the Wolverines, Spartans, and Fighting Irish used to play in the same conference as North Dakota and other schools.

Strange that NDSU fans are so butthurt over that piece of hockey history. They hate the idea that UND has a conference history with those schools plus Minnie and Sconie.

[SiouxVolley]

Let's Play Hockey @LetsPlay_Hockey  ·  2h 2 hours ago

According to WCHA sources, officials are hopeful of connecting with USC before the new year as to their interest in Division I hockey.

Seems the WCHA is in a big push to add western teams. A four team west would save then a lot by limiting Alaska trips to once a year.

[SiouxVolley]

It's amazing 2 teams that don't have prominent football teams can draw 146k in viewers

UNO doesn't draw TV fans. Only one of their opponents drew.

[bang]

I wander how many viewers a gopher-UND game gets. I was in Pheonix one year it was playing in a bar and a scuffle broke out. On TV and in the bar. It was that game about six-seven years ago when they started fighting in the handshake line. It was pretty funny cause I think the fight in the bar started cause of Kevin Gorg said something about Finley. It was classic. Gorg is such dink he can insight riots in different time zones.

[Blackheart]

I wander how many viewers a gopher-UND game gets. I was in Pheonix one year it was playing in a bar and a scuffle broke out. On TV and in the bar. It was that game about six-seven years ago when they started fighting in the handshake line. It was pretty funny cause I think the fight in the bar started cause of Kevin Gorg said something about Finley. It was classic. Gorg is such dink he can insight riots in different time zones.

Was that before or after he started waxing his eyebrows?

[Fetch]

Does Hawaii have Hockey 

[bang]

Was that before or after he started waxing his eyebrows?

The wax starts at his eyebrows goes straight over his head and halfway down his back is what I'm told.

[Rick]

UNO doesn't draw TV fans. Only one of their opponents drew.

Yup, I think you nailed it....CC vs Nebraska-Omaha (30,000 viewers).....Nebraska-Omaha vs Denver (38,000 viewers)......North Dakota vs Nebraska-Omaha (146,000 viewers). I wonder why UNO was able to pull in so many more viewers when they played the Sioux?

[UNDBIZ]

Yup, I think you nailed it....CC vs Nebraska-Omaha (30,000 viewers).....Nebraska-Omaha vs Denver (38,000 viewers)......North Dakota vs Nebraska-Omaha (146,000 viewers). I wonder why UNO was able to pull in so many more viewers when they played the Sioux?

 

And if we're being completely honest, I'd guess about 20% of the viewers for the CC-UNO and UNO-Denver games were Sioux fans too.

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

UNO doesn't draw TV fans. Only one of their opponents drew.

 

and yet UND doesn't have a prominent football program that being a college hockey powerhouse requires per some previous comments... huh

[cberkas]

According to this article WCHA is actively pursuing Arizona State with the NCHC taking a let them get their plan in place first. 

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/blog/sports-business/2014/12/wcha-courts-arizona-states-hockey-program.html