I used to like Florida State...

[CMSioux]

Actually, the Seminole tribes in Oklahoma came out in favor of Florida State using the name also. There was an early report that they were against it. It turned out to be 1 guy who was an official with one of the tribes. The official position of the tribes was in favor of using the nickname. As far as I know, the Oklahoma tribes don't get any money from Florida State.

At some point in the future the NCAA will revisit the issue and will go after Florida State and the others. We are seeing heavy pressure put on the Washington Redskins right now. It will continue in the future.

Yes but the extremists would say "If even one person is offended by it then it needs to go." Someday someone with national attention will have to stand up and say "Hey it's racist to have a white student dressed up as a Native American wearing war paint and riding a horse out on a football field and throwing a flaming spear into the ground". I once read that Seminoles seldom rode horses and never wore war paint. The tribe must be getting LOTS of money to have everyone in lock step on this.

[petey23]

They got permission because they give a ton of money to the Semilole tribe in Florida. I know they only had to get approval from the closest tribe but about 90% of Seminoles live in Oklahoma.

Based on previous champions, the national title will be worth in between $1.5M and $2.5M in licensing revenue to FSU....Darren Rovell Twitter Account

Florida St has permission from the Seminole tribe to use name & icons, but doesn’t pay them a royalty on gear...Darren Rovell Twitter Account

What I imagine they do is call up the Casino and alert them to the fact that a FSU alum is on his way to the Casino and would like to discreetly lose a few hundred thousand dollars.

[MafiaMan]

One of the arguments for UND being forced to change the name was they (opponents of the name) didn't like non-UND fans shouting Sioux Suck at athletic events (even though we all know they meant the team not the people). Well there is no team called Sioux so they must be talking about the people now. You don't hear UND fans shouting Farmers Suck or Aggies Suck (both referring to NDSU's former nicknames).

Funny how that works. I pointed out the silliness of this double-standard when West Virginia's basketball team travelled to Spokane several years ago to play Gonzaga. Some fans in the stands had signs reading "brokeback mountain" and a chant using the same language broke out in the student section. Nobody ever said a word about West Virginia needing a nickname change to prevent this type of behavior from ever happening again...but Gonzaga went so far as to request tapes of the game from ESPN so students could be disciplined.

But if West Virginia would have just changed their nickname, this wouldn't be an issue, right?

[geaux_sioux]

I miss the days when student sections could be out of line and profane and get away with it.

[NDSIOUXFAN1]

I miss the days when student sections could be out of line and profane and get away with it.

Agreed!!!

[JohnboyND7]

You mean they changed the rules and then changed the rules again when the Oklahoma tribe was not on board and then UND end up with a completely different set of rules. It all make perfect sense. Seriously - you to go talk to your dad again you are confused again.

Did UND agree to get the two tribes permission? Yes. Did they get them? Nope. UND agreed to play by those rules.

[UNDColorado]

Did UND agree to get the two tribes permission? Yes. Did they get them? Nope. UND agreed to play by those rules.

Was there another option? Nope. Did other schools have to get the approval of more than one tribe? Nope. Is your argument BS spin? Yup.

[JohnboyND7]

You mean they changed the rules and then changed the rules again when the Oklahoma tribe was not on board and then UND end up with a completely different set of rules. It all make perfect sense. Seriously - you to go talk to your dad again you are confused again.

Did UND agree to get the two tribes permission? Yes. Did they get them? Nope. UND agreed to play by those rules.

[nodak651]

That was their only option, troll. gtfo.... somebody ban this troll.

[Siouxperfan7]

Are we really digging up this argument again?? I think every point on both issues has been brought up at least 20 times. Move on!!

[darell1976]

Are we really digging up this argument again?? I think every point on both issues has been brought up at least 20 times. Move on!!

And all of this gets to be brought up nex year when the coming off period ends and a new name gets selected.

[MafiaMan]

And all of this gets to be brought up nex year when the coming off period ends and a new name gets selected.

Yep, can't wait to see the 4 finalists:

Sparkly Unicorns

Glittery Sunshine

Spotted Green Non-Offensive Lady Bugs

Blizzard

[Oxbow6]

Yep, can't wait to see the 4 finalists:

Sparkly Unicorns

Glittery Sunshine

Spotted Green Non-Offensive Lady Bugs

Blizzard

Forgot one...Gleeful Manatees

[darell1976]

Yep, can't wait to see the 4 finalists:

Sparkly Unicorns

Glittery Sunshine

Spotted Green Non-Offensive Lady Bugs

Blizzard

Blizzard is too violent sounding, change it to Snowflakes.

[senor_sieve]

Well then, if that's the criteria let me be the first to say that I am offended by NDSU's use of the Bison nickname.

As soon as a Bison, Grizzly, Hawkeye, Jackrabbit, Gopher, etc. comes out saying it is offended by any schools/sports teams use of their likeness, then the outrage can happen. you are none of those, so you being offended is irrelevant.

[FSSD]

Actually, the Seminole tribes in Oklahoma came out in favor of Florida State using the name also. There was an early report that they were against it. It turned out to be 1 guy who was an official with one of the tribes. The official position of the tribes was in favor of using the nickname. As far as I know, the Oklahoma tribes don't get any money from Florida State.

At some point in the future the NCAA will revisit the issue and will go after Florida State and the others. We are seeing heavy pressure put on the Washington Redskins right now. It will continue in the future.

It is a subtle point, but I don't believe that they received permission from the Oklahoma tribe. The Oklahoma tribe did try to denounce the use of NA names in sports (it failed), but no official position was taken supporting the continued use of the Seminole name at FSU.

8/5

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/081205/col_19484407.shtml

Last month the Oklahoma nation defeated a motion to denounce the use of Native American nicknames and images in sports and other events by an 18-2 vote, according to tribal officials.

8/23

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/2005-08-23-fsu-mascot-approved_x.htm

But dissent has been voiced within the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma, primarily by general council member David Narcomey, but the council has taken no official position on the FSU issue, according to Jennifer McBee, the tribe attorney general. Narcomey, saying he was voicing his opinion only, wrote in an e-mail to USA TODAY of the decision: "I am deeply appalled, incredulously disappointed ... I am nauseated that the NCAA is allowing this 'minstrel show' to carry on this form of racism in the 21st century."

[82SiouxGuy]

It is a subtle point, but I don't believe that they received permission from the Oklahoma tribe. The Oklahoma tribe did try to denounce the use of NA names in sports (it failed), but no official position was taken supporting the continued use of the Seminole name at FSU.

8/5

http://jacksonville...._19484407.shtml

Last month the Oklahoma nation defeated a motion to denounce the use of Native American nicknames and images in sports and other events by an 18-2 vote, according to tribal officials.

8/23

http://usatoday30.us...-approved_x.htm

But dissent has been voiced within the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma, primarily by general council member David Narcomey, but the council has taken no official position on the FSU issue, according to Jennifer McBee, the tribe attorney general. Narcomey, saying he was voicing his opinion only, wrote in an e-mail to USA TODAY of the decision: "I am deeply appalled, incredulously disappointed ... I am nauseated that the NCAA is allowing this 'minstrel show' to carry on this form of racism in the 21st century."

You may be correct, they were never asked for an official opinion. However, many people would say that they gave tacit approval by refusing to denounce it. Also, the principal chief of the tribe came out in favor of the nickname at the same time.

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/081205/col_19484407.shtml

TALLAHASSEE -- The NCAA didn't consult the Seminole Indian tribe of Oklahoma when it decided to adopt a policy aimed at eliminating Florida State's use of the Seminole nickname.

"We feel like it gives the type of recognition that allows people to identify with the name Seminoles," Ken Chambers, principal chief of the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma, told the Palm Beach Post for a story published Thursday. "As far as the mascot itself, it is not degrading to us. It is not humiliating."

Last month the Oklahoma nation defeated a motion to denounce the use of Native American nicknames and images in sports and other events by an 18-2 vote, according to tribal officials.

So, the tribe didn't have an official vote to support the nickname (they were never officially asked to do so). They did defeat a vote against using NA nicknames by a 90%-10% margin. And the tribal leader was quoted as being in favor of Florida State using the nickname. That's about as close as you can come to supporting the use as you can come without actually holding the vote.

[FSSD]

You may be correct, they were never asked for an official opinion. However, many people would say that they gave tacit approval by refusing to denounce it. Also, the principal chief of the tribe came out in favor of the nickname at the same time.

http://jacksonville...._19484407.shtml

So, the tribe didn't have an official vote to support the nickname (they were never officially asked to do so). They did defeat a vote against using NA nicknames by a 90%-10% margin. And the tribal leader was quoted as being in favor of Florida State using the nickname. That's about as close as you can come to supporting the use as you can come without actually holding the vote.

I have heard many people say that that Oklahoma tribe approved the usage of the nickname for FSU. It is simply not true. Oklahoma's vote was about denouncing the use of Native American nicknames not about "Denouncing FSU's use of the Seminole name" and the council took no position on that topic. But, I don't believe that getting approval would have been a slam dunk. Slight verbiage changes like - "I approve" or "I support" tends to change votes. I believe that the verbiage of what was voted on was very carefully crafted. If you hold the view that a chief's speaks for the tribe. I assume that you would agree that a ceremony would also hold significance.

[82SiouxGuy]

I have heard many people say that that Oklahoma tribe approved the usage of the nickname for FSU. It is simply not true. Oklahoma's vote was about denouncing the use of Native American nicknames not about "Denouncing FSU's use of the Seminole name" and the council took no position on that topic. But, I don't believe that getting approval would have been a slam dunk. Slight verbiage changes like - "I approve" or "I support" tends to change votes. I believe that the verbiage of what was voted on was very carefully crafted. If you hold the view that a chief's speaks for the tribe. I assume that you would agree that a ceremony would also hold significance.

A chief's view is important, but he may or may not speak for the tribe depending on the structure of the tribal government. He may or may not represent the majority of tribal members. I don't know how Oklahoma Seminole tribal government is structured. But a chief is normally a very respected member of the tribe and a lot of tribe members will follow his lead even if he doesn't have an official leadership role. A ceremony may or may not hold significance, depending on the ceremony and also on the tribal government structure. A lot of different ceremonies are held, both official and unofficial.

I assume that you are referring to the ceremony that was held at UND many years ago. The trouble with that particular ceremony was that there was very little actual proof of the ceremony or what it meant, and the fact that the Standing Rock tribal government disputed it. They voted against UND using the Sioux nickname several times after the ceremony. The Standing Rock Tribal Chair at the time of the ceremony was part of the group voting against UND using the nickname in later years as a member of the Tribal Council. That would appear to show that he didn't believe the ceremony was meant to permanently give UND permission to use the name. People that attended the ceremony had different stories about the ceremony and its purpose. There wasn't nearly enough proof to use in a court of law either way on that issue.

You're right, the Oklahoma Seminole tribe did not give official approval of Florida State using the Seminole nickname. They didn't have to and no one asked them to do so. If they had a problem with it they were free to have a vote and make a statement. They would have gotten a lot of free press. They didn't take up the issue. The only time the issue of NA nicknames came to a vote they defeated it soundly. This tells me that there weren't a lot of people that felt strongly against Florida State using the nickname. It may or may not have been a slam dunk, without the issue coming up it is impossible to know. But my feeling is that if a significant group would have had a problem, someone would have made an issue of it. So far no one has.

I didn't even bring up the subject of Oklahoma in this thread. At least 2 posters in this thread said that the Oklahoma Seminoles were against Florida State using the nickname. They were not. People seem to believe that the Seminole tribes of Oklahoma were ignored, they were not. There is no evidence that any significant portion of the tribe has an issue with NA nicknames in general or the Florida State Seminole nickname in specific. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that it is a problem for them at all at this time.