ND Supreme Court Rules against the NDSBoHE

[Teeder11]

Mods, this thread is getting ugly and personal. Remember, gentleman, IM is an option, too.

[Fetch]

Here you legal beagles can try to bring this to ND after you lose this June http://www.theatlant...-illegal/50733/

I thought Morticia looked pretty Hot ......not ugly

[watchmaker49]

Mods, this thread is getting ugly and personal. Remember, gentleman, IM is an option, too.

I'll stop as long as he does.

[Teeder11]

I'll stop as long as he does.

I'm not saying you guys have to stop, just don't drag your personal attacks and dislike for each other onto the public side... you can go toe-to-toe all you want with the IM function, snail mail, telphone, e-mail, etc. Lots of other options. Knock yoursevles out.

[dagies]

As heated and emotional as this debate can be, it probably is a good time to remind everyone of the Forum Rules. Which include:

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More here:

http://forum.siouxsports.com/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules

[darell1976]

If I could steer this ugly ship away from iceberg infested waters: If the people vote yes to dump the name and logo...will those other petitions show their ugly head? They need what 27,000 signitures or something like that?

[82SiouxGuy]

If I could steer this ugly ship away from iceberg infested waters: If the people vote yes to dump the name and logo...will those other petitions show their ugly head? They need what 27,000 signitures or something like that?

Earlier reports said that they had about the same number of signatures on the amendment petition as they did the referral petition when they turned the 1st one in. So they were probably 1/3 to 1/2 of the way there. I haven't heard much since.

[Chewey]

Earlier reports said that they had about the same number of signatures on the amendment petition as they did the referral petition when they turned the 1st one in. So they were probably 1/3 to 1/2 of the way there. I haven't heard much since.

They are just shy of 4 months to go. They'll get the signatures.

[Hawkster]

They are just shy of 4 months to go. They'll get the signatures.

And then confusion can really reign supreme. After spending the next 2 months telling people that yes means no and no means yes for the June primary, they can then turn around and tell people it's the same issue, but yes means yes and no means no.

[jodcon]

And then confusion can really reign supreme. After spending the next 2 months telling people that yes means no and no means yes for the June primary, they can then turn around and tell people it's the same issue, but yes means yes and no means no.

And then the average Joe will step into the booth and see something like..."For not rescinding the approved law reinstating the previously retired name and logo currently in use"...and will go "Uh, what?"

[darell1976]

And then the average Joe will step into the booth and see something like..."For not rescinding the approved law reinstating the previously retired name and logo currently in use"...and will go "Uh, what?"

Then hopefully the average Joe will say to himself, "why didn't they quit after the 2010 deadline..damn you Al Carlson"

[Fetch]

Politics is supposed to be a no no & many of us are sick of it

[The Sicatoka]

Politics in higher education is supposed to be a no-no as well.

[XCheck]

Perhaps this has already been discussed, but my question is if the vote is in favor of the nickname, including votes from Standing Rock, wouldn't that be enough proof to convince the NCAA to reverse their position? They said if we can get the approval of the nickname from both Spirit Lake and Standing Rock, that we could continue to use the name. Well a majority vote from the reservations would fulfill that requirement would it not? How could the NCAA continue to impose sanctions on UND when there is proof positive that a majority of both the Spirit Lake and Standing Rock Tribes support the continued use of the nickname? It would certainly be difficult for the NCAA to justify maintaining their current position with regard to UND. Thoughts?

[XCheck]

Perhaps this has already been discussed, but my question is if the vote is in favor of the nickname, including votes from Standing Rock, wouldn't that be enough proof to convince the NCAA to reverse their position? They said if we can get the approval of the nickname from both Spirit Lake and Standing Rock, that we could continue to use the name. Well a majority vote from the reservations would fulfill that requirement would it not? How could the NCAA continue to impose sanctions on UND when there is proof positive that a majority of both the Spirit Lake and Standing Rock Tribes support the continued use of the nickname? It would certainly be difficult for the NCAA to justify maintaining their current position with regard to UND. Thoughts?

Assuming that the majority of votes from the reservation is in favor of retaining the nickname and acknowledging the fact that many tribal members at Spirit Lake are outraged by what the NCAA has done, it seems "hostile and abusive" to ignore their wishes. Clearly, everybody seems to have very strong opinions with regard to what should be done, but when it gets right down to it the opinions that count are those of the tribal members themselves. They are the ones that need to indicate whether or not the nickname is truly "hostile and abusive". Let the tribal members vote decide this. If the majority of the tribal members don't consider the nickname "hostile and abusive", then no one else should worry about it. If the majority tribal vote is opposed to the nickname, the discussion/debate should end immediately and the Fighting Sioux nickname forgotten. Whether it should be dropped is up to the tribal members and they should decide what is offensive to them. So let's show the Sioux people some actual respect and see how they vote. The white vote shouldn't even count. White people are truly disrespecting the real Sioux by taking strong positions one way or the other. The NCAA is right by simply requesting proof positive that the majority of tribal members approve of the continued use of the nickname. So let's give the people at the true center of this discussion a chance to vote and support there decision one way or the other. We owe it to the tribal members to let them decide and resolve this controvery one way or the other. If they vote in favor of it we should take the NCAA to the mat if necessary to do right by the Native Americans. The current path being taken by UND administration/Alumni Association may be easier and more expedient, but not doing all we can to get a clear picture of the tribal members opinion is most disrepectful and truly "hostile and abusive". If UND is truly an institution built on integrity and honor, it will aggressiverly defend the tribal members wishes one way or the other.

[82SiouxGuy]

Perhaps this has already been discussed, but my question is if the vote is in favor of the nickname, including votes from Standing Rock, wouldn't that be enough proof to convince the NCAA to reverse their position? They said if we can get the approval of the nickname from both Spirit Lake and Standing Rock, that we could continue to use the name. Well a majority vote from the reservations would fulfill that requirement would it not? How could the NCAA continue to impose sanctions on UND when there is proof positive that a majority of both the Spirit Lake and Standing Rock Tribes support the continued use of the nickname? It would certainly be difficult for the NCAA to justify maintaining their current position with regard to UND. Thoughts?

Two points. First, the settlement spells out exactly how the approval can be obtained. It says nothing about getting a vote or about public approval. For Standing Rock it says that the tribe can decide on approval in any way that is acceptable in the Tribal constitution. Then that approval had to be communicated to the NCAA in writing and signed by someone in Tribal government with the authority to do that. The Standing Rock Tribal Constitution does not have a method to allow the tribe to vote on individual items or laws. They don't have the initiated measure or referendums that North Dakota has. Less than half of the cities and states in the United States have initiated measures and referendums. So at Standing Rock the approval had to come from the Tribal Council, much like approval for something by the United States government would have to come from the US Congress rather than a vote of the people.

The second thing is that the deadline for approval passed. They had to give approval by November 30, 2010. That is spelled out in the agreement. The delegation that went to talk to the NCAA last summer specifically asked the question of whether approval would count if Standing Rock changed their position. The NCAA said that they would not recognize that approval since it happened after the deadline.

So the answer is that nothing that happens on Standing Rock from this point forward is going to change the NCAAs position, and a vote of the people on Standing Rock never would have made a difference unless the Tribal Council then changed their minds.

[82SiouxGuy]

Assuming that the majority of votes from the reservation is in favor of retaining the nickname and acknowledging the fact that many tribal members at Spirit Lake are outraged by what the NCAA has done, it seems "hostile and abusive" to ignore their wishes. Clearly, everybody seems to have very strong opinions with regard to what should be done, but when it gets right down to it the opinions that count are those of the tribal members themselves. They are the ones that need to indicate whether or not the nickname is truly "hostile and abusive". Let the tribal members vote decide this. If the majority of the tribal members don't consider the nickname "hostile and abusive", then no one else should worry about it. It is up to the tribal members, not us, to decide what is offensive to them. So let's show them some respect and see how they vote. The white vote shouldn't even count.

Their is a legal settlement between UND and the state of North Dakota, and the NCAA that spells out exactly what counts and what doesn't in how the NCAA will handle the situation. There never was a vote of anyone that counted in deciding the issue. It doesn't matter how the reservations vote, and it doesn't matter how the rest of the state votes. The NCAA has a policy in place and UND is on the wrong side of that policy. UND will be under sanctions until they quit using the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo. The only thing that might change that would be if Spirit Lake would win their lawsuit. That is a long shot right now, and it would take several years at a minimum before they might have a chance to win. All of that time UND would be suffering under the sanctions. That is not good for UND athletics. That is why it is important that UND retires the nickname and logo as soon as possible.

[XCheck]

Thanks for the explanation. It sounds like the delegation representing UND and the State of ND were inept in allowing themselves to get painted into a corner like that. Those representing UND and the State of North Dakota needed to be a lot more shrewd and savvy to avoid being out-maneuvered like this. I thought North Dakotans were smarter and tougher than that. Too bad Tom Clifford isn't still around....he would have resolved this, one way or the other, using his many capabilities and determination. ("By the light of knowledge, men read the laws of life". Better change that to "In the shadow of ignorance and arrogance, men read the laws of life".) No wonder there are many at Spirit Lake that resent the fact that they weren't sufficiently included/involved in all the decisions that were hypocritically made on their behalf. However, ultimately, the NCAA is the most hypocritical of all. Without knowing what the majority of tribal members thought about the issue, they issued a policy that very likely is deemed "hostile and abusive" to the very people they pretend to protect. In the end, the Sioux people were treated most disrespectfully by all the above as well as the Tribal Council at Standing Rock that chose not to find out what their people really wanted. Don't worry, I won't post again on this issue which certainly won't go down as one of the proud moments in UND's history.

[82SiouxGuy]

Thanks for the explanation. It sounds like the delegation representing UND and the State of ND were inept in allowing themselves to get painted into a corner like that. Those representing UND and the State of North Dakota needed to be a lot more shrewd and savvy to avoid being out-maneuvered like this. I thought North Dakotans were smarter and tougher than that. Too bad Tom Clifford isn't still around....he would have resolved this, one way or the other, using his many capabilities and determination. ("By the light of knowledge, men read the laws of life". Better change that to "In the shadow of ignorance and arrogance, men read the laws of life".) No wonder there are many at Spirit Lake that resent the fact that they weren't sufficiently included/involved in all the decisions that were hypocritically made on their behalf. However, ultimately, the NCAA is the most hypocritical of all. Without knowing what the majority of tribal members thought about the issue, they issued a policy that very likely is deemed "hostile and abusive" to the very people they pretend to protect. In the end, the Sioux people were treated most disrespectfully by all the above as well as the Tribal Council at Standing Rock that chose not to find out what their people really wanted. Don't worry, I won't post again on this issue which certainly won't go down as one of the proud moments in UND's history.

The decision was made well before the delegation went to the NCAA. That was more for show than anything else, the NCAA wasn't going to change and the North Dakota delegation had nothing to deal. The NCAA did this to a bunch of schools around the country. UND has pushed things further than anyone else. But it is the NCAA's game and they are making the rules. Even Tom Clifford couldn't have done anything more with the NCAA. It's hard to know whether he would have had any more success with Standing Rock.

[Fetch]

this is why a fight must ensue & in most fights there are injuries

[fightingsioux4life]

this is why a fight must ensue & in most fights there are injuries

When the injuries are life-threatening, you don't keep fighting, you plan a strategic retreat and live to fight another day. The Imperial Japanese believed in victory thru death; I don't think we should follow that example.

[petey23]

Perhaps this has already been discussed, but my question is if the vote is in favor of the nickname, including votes from Standing Rock, wouldn't that be enough proof to convince the NCAA to reverse their position? They said if we can get the approval of the nickname from both Spirit Lake and Standing Rock, that we could continue to use the name. Well a majority vote from the reservations would fulfill that requirement would it not? How could the NCAA continue to impose sanctions on UND when there is proof positive that a majority of both the Spirit Lake and Standing Rock Tribes support the continued use of the nickname? It would certainly be difficult for the NCAA to justify maintaining their current position with regard to UND. Thoughts?

This vote has nothing to do with whether people would be in favor of keeping the name or not. We all know that would pass with 75-80% of the vote.

[Fetch]

it is about what is right - our name is not hostile or abusive & the vast majority want to keep it

[82SiouxGuy]

Neither the law nor the NCAA care what is "right". Doing what you think is "right" is going to hurt UND and won't have any affect on the NCAA. What good does that do anyone, other than the selfish people that really only care about their ability to keep using the nickname? It does no good, only damage.

[Fetch]

It shows a united front

It helps SL

It shows what Sioux county thinks

It shows the name & logo is more important than what you think

It shows it's not over yet

It shows if SL wins there could be a new settlement & if SR were smart they would finally vote to agree to the name so they could possibly share in the revenue it could bring to them also

It will show ND can not be told what to do when we believe it is unjust

VOTE NO & let it play out