What Needs to Happen

[jodcon]

You can still wear your Sioux gear. But when UND gets a new name I think I may wear both.

I think that's what most people will end up doing. I know a lot of people have said they will never wear clothing with whatever the new nickname ends up being on it, but over time I think most people will at least pick up a few things and wear them on occasion, maybe not as much as they wear their Sioux stuff, but sometimes.

We're not going to be happy when the nickname changes, and whatever it ends up being will not hold a candle to 'Fighting Sioux', but I think we have to look at the bigger picture and realize that what is important is supporting the players we have on the court/field/ice at that time, whether they are playing now or haven't even been born yet, and part of that support should be displaying the UND insignia that is available at that time, even if it grinds on us because of hard feelings over the loss of the 'Fighting Sioux' nickname we all grew up with.

[Chewey]

I think that's what most people will end up doing. I know a lot of people have said they will never wear clothing with whatever the new nickname ends up being on it, but over time I think most people will at least pick up a few things and wear them on occasion, maybe not as much as they wear their Sioux stuff, but sometimes.

We're not going to be happy when the nickname changes, and whatever it ends up being will not hold a candle to 'Fighting Sioux', but I think we have to look at the bigger picture and realize that what is important is supporting the players we have on the court/field/ice at that time, whether they are playing now or haven't even been born yet, and part of that support should be displaying the UND insignia that is available at that time, even if it grinds on us because of hard feelings over the loss of the 'Fighting Sioux' nickname we all grew up with.

I appreciate the sentiments but I will be one who will never wear anything else than Sioux apparel. The so-called transition committee already was assailing local establishments about discontinuing the use of the "Sioux" name. I am sure there will be entirely rah-rah, "suggestive" efforts afoot to discourage people from wearing Sioux apparel. If I owned a private business up there, such as the Sioux Travel Center and Cafe on highway 2 west, I would certainly continue using the name. Discontinuing use of the name may be good PC fodder but that feel good shuffle does not transfer over to private sector realities.

[jodcon]

I appreciate the sentiments but I will be one who will never wear anything else than Sioux apparel. The so-called transition committee already was assailing local establishments about discontinuing the use of the "Sioux" name. I am sure there will be entirely rah-rah, "suggestive" efforts afoot to discourage people from wearing Sioux apparel. If I owned a private business up there, such as the Sioux Travel Center and Cafe on highway 2 west, I would certainly continue using the name. Discontinuing use of the name may be good PC fodder but that feel good shuffle does not transfer over to private sector realities.

If the PC crowd has any sense they will keep their mouths shut if the nickname does indeed change, any effort to regulate the wearing of Sioux apparel would result in some real 'hostile and abusive' behavior.

Thinking that they can influence or control private sector matters is arrogant and assinine on their part.

[Fetch]

If the Governor can have a meeting with the NCAA - there is still hope

If they say no then all you Chicken Little's can ask the Legislature to repeal the Law & they will

Until then the sky is not falling

Everyone who wants to keep the name should contact the NCAA - memmert@ncaa.org

There are lots of things that were not said or thought about or considered the last time

[darell1976]

I appreciate the sentiments but I will be one who will never wear anything else than Sioux apparel. The so-called transition committee already was assailing local establishments about discontinuing the use of the "Sioux" name. I am sure there will be entirely rah-rah, "suggestive" efforts afoot to discourage people from wearing Sioux apparel. If I owned a private business up there, such as the Sioux Travel Center and Cafe on highway 2 west, I would certainly continue using the name. Discontinuing use of the name may be good PC fodder but that feel good shuffle does not transfer over to private sector realities.

http://www.bluecorncomics.com/dartrvw.htm

I'll be one of the first people to admit that I thought the controversy over the Indian symbol at Dartmouth was all but dead. No logical person believes that it will ever return as part of the official or prominent iconography of the College. Yet in the absence of a suitable replacement for more than three decades now, the Indian remains a tangible symbol of Dartmouth for generations of students. It is the ingrained image of school spirit at Dartmouth, and an image which people are still eager to embrace. I am skeptical that the hundreds of students who buy and wear Dartmouth Indian apparel every year do so of out malicious intent. Likewise, should one believe that the dozens of football players and other athletes who get the Dartmouth Indian tattooed on their thigh every year are doing so precisely to offend a small minority? Wearing a logo because it looks cool (face it, it really does) and outwardly displays school spirit is a far cry from wearing it with the intention of offending everyone in sight.

[SIOUXFAN97]

I emailed that emmert guy and surprise surprise no response yet...i just asked him if he regarded UND as the best university in the country for American Indians and if so why do suppose that is?

Pretty simple question and answer but he seems stooped?

I wish Tom Clifford was still around to put Mr. Berkeley in his place.

Does anyone have a screen shot of the Facebook chat log between Grant Shaft's son and pro-nickname people that was reported to have happened a few months back...jsut wondering

go sioux

[petey23]

I think that's what most people will end up doing. I know a lot of people have said they will never wear clothing with whatever the new nickname ends up being on it, but over time I think most people will at least pick up a few things and wear them on occasion, maybe not as much as they wear their Sioux stuff, but sometimes.

We're not going to be happy when the nickname changes, and whatever it ends up being will not hold a candle to 'Fighting Sioux', but I think we have to look at the bigger picture and realize that what is important is supporting the players we have on the court/field/ice at that time, whether they are playing now or haven't even been born yet, and part of that support should be displaying the UND insignia that is available at that time, even if it grinds on us because of hard feelings over the loss of the 'Fighting Sioux' nickname we all grew up with.

I would buy gear with UND or THE University of North Dakota on it, but probably not anything with a new name on it unless we come up with something great.....I have read through all the threads on this site with all the name suggestions and there have been hundreds put forward and so far about 98% of them suck and the other 2% are o.k. standing by themselves but suck when compared to our current moniker. I say we go without a name for at least 3 or 4 years and just be referred to as THE University of North Dakota.

[Chewey]

If the PC crowd has any sense they will keep their mouths shut if the nickname does indeed change, any effort to regulate the wearing of Sioux apparel would result in some real 'hostile and abusive' behavior.

Thinking that they can influence or control private sector matters is arrogant and assinine on their part.

Agreed. But, we saw some of that earlier this year when Kelley and his committee made overtures to some of the local businesses with requests to stop using "Sioux" in their names. Unbelievable. If the name changes, that's all the more reason to retain "Sioux" in their names as an expression of the majority's voice of dissidence.

[jodcon]

I have read through all the threads on this site with all the name suggestions and there have been hundreds put forward and so far about 98% of them suck and the other 2% are o.k. standing by themselves but suck when compared to our current moniker.

I'm with you there, I've seen maybe 2 or 3 that haven't made me nauseous.

[GeauxSioux]

Winrich again calls on Stenehjem to weigh in on constitutionality of Sioux nickname bill

Rep. Lonny Winrich, D-Grand Forks, has again called on Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem to weigh in on the constitutionality of the UND Fighting Sioux nickname bill passed by the 2011 Legislature.

Winrich, who asked Stenehjem for a formal opinion on the law last month, said “the situation has changed considerably” since Stenehjem declined to issue an opinion in mid-May.

Jon Backes, the outgoing board present, said that Stenehjem told him he would be willing to meet with the board in July or August.

But with increasing calls for the Legislature to reconsider the nickname law, “it would be helpful … to have an attorney general’s opinion on that bill as drawn,” Winrich said.

Stenehjem was unavailable for comment Tuesday. An assistant said he is out of town until next week.

[ScottM]

I would buy gear with UND or THE University of North Dakota on it, but probably not anything with a new name on it unless we come up with something great.....I have read through all the threads on this site with all the name suggestions and there have been hundreds put forward and so far about 98% of them suck and the other 2% are o.k. standing by themselves but suck when compared to our current moniker. I say we go without a name for at least 3 or 4 years and just be referred to as THE University of North Dakota.

I've spent the past couple of years loading up on Sioux gear. I don't expect to buy anything with a replacement name/logo. Unless it's this ...

And NoDak's "esteemed" Attorney General is doing nobody any favors by ducking issues related to the legislation that his office should either handle, or farm out to competent counsel.

[Fetch]

more political / PC racism garbage

[rochsioux]

There is only three ways I see any change happening in the NC$$ position:

1. Pressure from Congress. You can forget this one, ND politicians are worthless.

2. Lawsuit. There is no way this will happen now given the BSC statements, even if a case could be made.

3. If the NC$$ sees they could lose $$$ by maintaining their position. Start an email campaign and contact every business that sponsers the NC$$ and ask them why they support an org that is discriminating against native americans ? Why does the NC$$ not respect the people of Spirit Lake ? Here is a link to these businesses: http://www.ncaa.com/...ns-and-partners Seems that the ND state legislature got an awful lot of email on this issue. My guess is these corporations would not be too happy to see their inbox flooded.

[Matt]

Agreed. But, we saw some of that earlier this year when Kelley and his committee made overtures to some of the local businesses with requests to stop using "Sioux" in their names. Unbelievable. If the name changes, that's all the more reason to retain "Sioux" in their names as an expression of the majority's voice of dissidence.

When/if the name change happens, I would think rather than being punitive toward those that use "Sioux", they will give preferencial treatment to those who promote the new name...catching more flies with honey and all of that.

[UND-1]

I am going to wear whatever the new logo is for one reason: It is what the UND teams that I support will be wearing.

[Chewey]

I am going to wear whatever the new logo is for one reason: It is what the UND teams that I support will be wearing.

I'd rather wear what they should be wearing.

[The Sicatoka]

I wonder why nobody has yet called into question the constitutionality of the NCAA's ban on Native American nicknames.

The NCAA is a private organization.

The first step would be to get them declared a "state actor".

Then, as a pseudo-govenmental entitiy, they'd be subject to Constitutional provisions.

The best (only) hope for the NCAA to be declared a "state actor" would be under this (from the link):

If government agencies are simply members of a private organization then the actions of the organization are not state action, but if the government is “pervasively entwined” with the leadership of the private organization then the acts of the organization are state action (Brentwood Academy v. Tennessee Secondary School Athletic Association, 535 U.S. 971 (2002)).

Now can I get one of the resident legal observers to comment on the potential applicability of Brentwood v. TSSAA to the NCAA? My guess is that the scope isn't right and Brentwood doesn't apply, or else someone would've gone after the NCAA with it already.

[dakota fairways]

2013 the BTHC starts we have 2 years to come down this road about not playing Minny/Wisconsin. We don't go on the H&A list until August 15 so a lot can happen between now and then.

I have to admit, I am holding out hope that Mr Carlson can get somewhere with the NCAA next month, but I am not holding my breath. I do not think they will give two cents worth of thought to any of UND & the North Dakota legislature's statements. They have a lot more (important problems like Ohio State, Auburn and now today North Carolina) on their plates than an agreement with the ND SBoHE that has already been signed and in place for almost 4 years. I have gained a lot of respect for Darrell the past week as he has written some well thought-out posts and makes a lot of sense in the face of the new Big Sky developments.

That being said, I admit I am joining the chicken littles, as Fetch calls it, and saying enough is enough. Losing the hockey rivalries with Minnesota and Wisconsin is bad enough, but losing the conference affiliation in the Big Sky has the potential to make UND's athletic programs obscure in independence. UND cannot prosper in independence like the other Fighting ND, or even like BYU, and may even have trouble surviving.

With the threat of the WCHA losing stature because of the Big Ten Hockey Conference (whether they have been competetive or not the last couple of years, the Gophers and Badgers bring recognized names to the WCHA), can UND really afford to lose them as out of conference games? Many have said it will hurt them more than UND, but it will hurt the WCHA's public perception because non-hockey states recognize Minnesota and Wisconsin, but Bemidji, Minnesota State, Nebraska Omaha - not so much. The Big Ten Hockey Conference will have instant credibility because it is the Big Ten, everyone knows names like Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State. It may even benefit all of college hockey to have the BTHC.

Fetch, your letter to the NCAA is awesome. Again, I just don't think the NCAA cares what Fighting Sioux supporters or even the Spirit Lake Sioux tribe themselves say anymore. I hope to be proven wrong, but we need to prepare ourselves for moving forward without the Fighting Sioux name or logo. With all due respect to DaveK, I will continue to be a fan of UND, whether they are the Flickertails, Fighting Sioux, Spirit Lake Sioux or even Spirit.

[johnsowe]

We need to march on the NCAA and demand that they back off or demand that Notre Dame change there name.

[Fetch]

Everyone who wants to keep the name should contact the NCAA - memmert@ncaa.org

[darell1976]

I have to admit, I am holding out hope that Mr Carlson can get somewhere with the NCAA next month, but I am not holding my breath. I do not think they will give two cents worth of thought to any of UND & the North Dakota legislature's statements. They have a lot more (important problems like Ohio State, Auburn and now today North Carolina) on their plates than an agreement with the ND SBoHE that has already been signed and in place for almost 4 years. I have gained a lot of respect for Darrell the past week as he has written some well thought-out posts and makes a lot of sense in the face of the new Big Sky developments.

That being said, I admit I am joining the chicken littles, as Fetch calls it, and saying enough is enough. Losing the hockey rivalries with Minnesota and Wisconsin is bad enough, but losing the conference affiliation in the Big Sky has the potential to make UND's athletic programs obscure in independence. UND cannot prosper in independence like the other Fighting ND, or even like BYU, and may even have trouble surviving.

With the threat of the WCHA losing stature because of the Big Ten Hockey Conference (whether they have been competetive or not the last couple of years, the Gophers and Badgers bring recognized names to the WCHA), can UND really afford to lose them as out of conference games? Many have said it will hurt them more than UND, but it will hurt the WCHA's public perception because non-hockey states recognize Minnesota and Wisconsin, but Bemidji, Minnesota State, Nebraska Omaha - not so much. The Big Ten Hockey Conference will have instant credibility because it is the Big Ten, everyone knows names like Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State. It may even benefit all of college hockey to have the BTHC.

Fetch, your letter to the NCAA is awesome. Again, I just don't think the NCAA cares what Fighting Sioux supporters or even the Spirit Lake Sioux tribe themselves say anymore. I hope to be proven wrong, but we need to prepare ourselves for moving forward without the Fighting Sioux name or logo. With all due respect to DaveK, I will continue to be a fan of UND, whether they are the Flickertails, Fighting Sioux, Spirit Lake Sioux or even Spirit.

I don't blame Fetch for thinking the way he does. He believes there is still a chance to save the name, and I hope there is a miracle out there that will save it; but I am not betting the farm anymore on this issue. We have had repeated hopes crushed in saving the name. When it looks like a light, boom out goes that light. Here were the chances of hope in this whole issue and what crushed that hope:

2007 lawsuit: there was hope that Janke would rule in favor of UND ....wrong ends in a stalemate with UND having to get 2 tribal approvals in 3 years.

Spirit Lake approves tribe wide vote...ends with 67% approval looking good until.....

Standing Rock Chair RHHIT and his tribal council disapprove of the name.

One time Sioux nickname supporter Charles Murphy is voted in and RHHIT is voted out looking good until.... NO tribewide vote.

2011 ND legislature saves name with a ND state law looking good until.....BSC threatens to kick us out, and NCAA does not reverse its decision on the policy.

See a pattern. Its gotta stop and that letter from the BSC to Kelley was the final straw. Its over. Hope IMO is gone. So call us Chicken Littles but as Star2City would say...those are facts!

[dakota fairways]

I don't blame Fetch for thinking the way he does. He believes there is still a chance to save the name, and I hope there is a miracle out there that will save it; but I am not betting the farm anymore on this issue. We have had repeated hopes crushed in saving the name. When it looks like a light, boom out goes that light. Here were the chances of hope in this whole issue and what crushed that hope:

2007 lawsuit: there was hope that Janke would rule in favor of UND ....wrong ends in a stalemate with UND having to get 2 tribal approvals in 3 years.

Spirit Lake approves tribe wide vote...ends with 67% approval looking good until.....

Standing Rock Chair RHHIT and his tribal council disapprove of the name.

One time Sioux nickname supporter Charles Murphy is voted in and RHHIT is voted out looking good until.... NO tribewide vote.

2011 ND legislature saves name with a ND state law looking good until.....BSC threatens to kick us out, and NCAA does not reverse its decision on the policy.

Mr Carlson Dalrymple goes to Indianapolis and NCAA still doesn't reverse its decision on the policy. Hopes and dreams are once again crushed.

See a pattern. Its gotta stop and that letter from the BSC to Kelley was the final straw. Its over. Hope IMO is gone. So call us Chicken Littles but as Star2City would say...those are facts!

added one more line and edited for Fetch. agreed.

Edited June 23, 2011 by dakota fairways

[Fetch]

I said the Governor not Mr Carlson ---more political garbage

[GeauxSioux]

Back to what needs to happen. From the Bismarck Tribune.... Drop the 'Fighting Sioux'

It's time for those legislators to show leadership by admitting their mistake and committing to lightening the heavy burden they wrongfully placed on UND and its students - and November's special redistricting session isn't soon enough.

It's time for the Board of Higher Education to lead by backing President Kelley, at whatever cost, at restarting the transition process that had begun, making it possible to move past the nickname and logo conflict.

And, it's time for the NCAA, and Big Sky Conference, to acknowledge those efforts by then showing leadership by welcoming and helping UND move forward to university and student athletic success.

Consider what is best for students and it isn't an ongoing controversy over a nickname.

Now is the time for leadership - not showmanship.

[The Sicatoka]

From the Bismarck Tribune.... Drop the 'Fighting Sioux'

Same editorial:

Pick a new nickname and logo, deal with some angst for an undetermined period of time and create an atmosphere ultimately conducive to university and student athletic success.

Continue use of the nickname and logo, deal with everlasting angst from the NCAA, and create an atmosphere that severely impacts the university and student athletic success.

More specifically, " ... everlasing angst from the NCAA ... " and potential conferences, because that's all we'll ever have is potential conferences as no one will touch UND.