Somebody's Lying

[82SiouxGuy]

They know!

The outlined sanctions would be enforced upon UND. UND would not be able to host any NCAA tournament games and could not wear the logo during post season play (there may be some other minor items as well). To me this is a small price to pay to keep the name while everything gets ironed out. If Standing Rock held a vote all of this would go away. If they voted against the name, I would be ok with the name being retired. Until then, I hope we retain the name and let the NCAA look like the PC fools they truely are!

I'm sure that Mussman and the football team would be glad to give up any hope of hosting a playoff game for an indefinite period. That wouldn't hurt the football program at all. Because we all know that Standing Rock will gladly hold an election as soon as the State Board of Higher Education allows them to.

[Old Time Hockey]

How many years would you be willing to face these sanctions? Even if they vote for the nickname the NCAA doesn't have overturn the sanctions since we have an agreement that we needed to get support before the deadline and it didn't happen. The NCAA would punish us indefinitely for this and there is nothing we or anyone on the Standing Rock Reservation could do about it.

I know your a Sioux hockey fan and thus probably don't give a !@#$ about the other sports on campus but just try to think about what this would do to the other sports on campus to have an indefinite ban on hosting postseason events. If this impacted hockey like it does the other sports the name would have been gone 2 years ago.

I would let this play out for a bit. Seems like a lot of "supporters" out there are willing to rollover on the the nickname for a couple of potential home playoff games. It is not true that I am a football only guy. Not that I need to defend myself to you, but I have been a SIOUX football fan since that late 70's. In fact I was in Florence when we won the big one! Honestly do you think a home football playoff game is in the horizon for our football team in the next 3-4 years? And if we do by chance get one, isn't it worth risking those games for the chance to retain the name?

[Chewey]

Absolutely. We are not getting a playoff game anytime soon at home anyway except for an act of God. Let it play out. Saying "Well, the deadline is passed now (even though we did nothing during that time period and actively worked against the name behind the scenes) there's nothing we can do now" is exactly the play Kelley and the anti-nicknamers had all along. Continue to fight for the name.

[homer]

If this impacted hockey like it does the other sports the name would have been gone 2 years ago.

Isnt' this the truth.

[dmksioux]

What I don't understand about this whole nickname debate is why wasn't anything done in the legislature two years ago? Why did the debate have to be drug out so long and get to the point of where it is now before they decided to act? At some point, fans and alumni, need to ask themselves is keeping the nickname worth all the potential negatives that come with it? Sanctions would most definitely hurt the football program but it's not just about home playoff games. Even if Standing Rock were to eventually vote to keep the name, we need to again ask ourselves, is it worth it? How many schools would want to play the Fighting Sioux and deal with the potential "issues" (real or perceived) that go with it? We saw it when we went to Dartmouth for hockey. We saw it when we went to Texas Tech for football. With so many options to play other schools, why would DI schools want to play UND in non-conference sports and have to potentially worry about this "potential negative backlash"? I would venture to guess that scheduling in all sports, including hockey, would become more difficult as time goes on and more of the "Dartmouth/Texas Tech" examples take place.

Another thing to consider is what the NCAA may do. Some people are willing to forgo home playoff games to keep the name. What if the NCAA decides to pass a resolution to ban teams with "unapproved" names from all playoff games or impose other sactions? The NCAA could decide to make things very difficult just because it's their league and they can.

I would like to keep the Fighting Sioux as our nickname just like a majority on this board. But at this point in time, we need to ask "Is it worth it" or "at what cost?" If somehow, UND were to keep the nickname, I believe the NCAA would make sure that there were "some costs" that came along with it.

[Oxbow6]

Isnt' this the truth.

Seriously??? The nickname to supporters, alum and students is bigger than just the hockey team. The fact that the hockey team is the financial engine the runs the athletic dept. is another issue and debate. Kelly and Fasion have never shown support publically for keeping the nickname/logo. Right or wrong that leaves a very bitter taste in a majority of supporters/alum and specifically this alum. I'm glad that UND is in the Big Sky, but the reality is any other athletic team, especially men's FB or BB is a looooooong way from being relevent on the D1 scene. Hockey is the university flagship athletic team like it or not but to throw that progam under the bus and use it as leverage to your liking in this nickname agrument is _______! Someone else can fill in the blank.

[farce poobah]

... Should we just have Al Carlson and Jeff Kolpack pick our next AD and Prez? You obviously believe they have UND's best interests heart if you believe this drivel.

Everyone needs to think rationally about this. Douple knows his ass is grass and he wants to take down UND with him. The man's been Gene Taylor's cuddling partner for the last few years and now he's doing his buddy a solid on his way out the door.

Truth.

I think the reason this is coming up now is that Douple is doing a favor for his buddy Gene Taylor. Taylor sees a chance to smear UND, and he's taking it. (An alternative is that Douple is doing the bidding of his AD's, by trying to ding UND he thinks he's helping the Summit defend against Big Sky encroachment.)

Kolpack, the puppet, is just trying to sell newspapers.

[ShilohSioux]

Kelly and Fasion have never shown support publically for keeping the nickname/logo. Right or wrong that leaves a very bitter taste in a majority of supporters/alum

I would like to keep the Fighting Sioux as our nickname just like a majority on this board. But at this point in time, we need to ask "Is it worth it" or "at what cost?" If somehow, UND were to keep the nickname, I believe the NCAA would make sure that there were "some costs" that came along with it.

I think if Kelly and Fasion had used something like the language here in the second quote (even in yesterday's radio interview), this would be easier to accept. Maybe they said it and I'm not aware, but if they appeared to "fight the good fight" and lost, I think most of us would be willing to move on. As it is, it doesn't look like there was much of a fight. Perhaps there was, or perhaps it occurred behind the scenes, but perception is reality sometime.

[Oxbow6]

I think if Kelly and Fasion had used something like the language here in the second quote (even in yesterday's radio interview), this would be easier to accept. Maybe they said it and I'm not aware, but if they appeared to "fight the good fight" and lost, I think most of us would be willing to move on. As it is, it doesn't look like there was much of a fight. Perhaps there was, or perhaps it occurred behind the scenes, but perception is reality sometime.

Totally agree...it seems like it was either or with those two. Find a D1 conference, blah, blah, blah or fight for nickname/logo. Have never seen or heard from either that trying to accomplish both was ever an option. That to me if the real issue I have with the way this whole thing was handled. Show some fight and still lose nickname, so be it. Give up on that issue to make the D1 transition easier is just a bailout and lack of leadership IMO.

[Bison Dan]

Truth.

I think the reason this is coming up now is that Douple is doing a favor for his buddy Gene Taylor. Taylor sees a chance to smear UND, and he's taking it. (An alternative is that Douple is doing the bidding of his AD's, by trying to ding UND he thinks he's helping the Summit defend against Big Sky encroachment.)

Kolpack, the puppet, is just trying to sell newspapers.

Delusional reasoning at it's finest.

[firewall]

Delusional reasoning at it's finest.

Is it?

[siouxknocka]

I'm going to preface this by saying I have only been following UND athletics 'regularly' for about 3 years so I don't know what happened immediately after we were placed on the NCAA list but from my perspective Kelley and Faison are getting blamed far too much for UND losing the nickname or as some want to say,"not fighting for it enough".

After 5 minutes of research this is what I've found.

Announcement of NCAA Ban's Native American Imagery beginning on Feb. 1st, 2006 - August 2005

Florida State, Central Michigan, Utah all removed from list - LESS THAN ONE MONTH LATER - August/Sept 2005

Dr. Kelley and Faison hired at UND - 2008

What prevented UND from doing the same and getting approval at the beginning? If saying that Ron His Horse is Thunder would have prevented it back then, well, it's been 5+ years and it's still no different and he's no longer there.

I'm 100% in favor of UND keeping the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo, I've gone ahead purchased a couple hundred dollars worth of clothing in the last few months because it's by far the best logo in sports, but when you're part of an organization (NCAA) which is voluntary and you're relying on written approval from two seperate entities (Standing Rock and Spirit Lake) that are COMPLETELY out of your control, what are you supposed to do? I wish the Standing Rock tribal members would have been allowed to vote on it but neither you, I, Kelley, Faison, etc, etc, etc are able to make them.

The day the settlement was reached was the day the logo was gone, like it or not but Standing Rock was going to just sit back and wait for this past November to drift by.

The other thought I've also always asked myself. If UND does get approval from both tribes how long will it be until one of the two tribes decides the don't like it. 5, 10, 15years? If it were to ever play out like that, what do you think the NCAA would say. "Don't worry UND, they gave you approval back in 20**, we don't care what you have as your name and logo". It's the NCAA's ball, court, stadium, etc, we're just offered the opportunity to be part of it.

That's my $.02.....rip away as needed.

[rsioux]

I'm going to preface this by saying I have only been following UND athletics 'regularly' for about 3 years so I don't know what happened immediately after we were placed on the NCAA list but from my perspective Kelley and Faison are getting blamed far too much for UND losing the nickname or as some want to say,"not fighting for it enough".

After 5 minutes of research this is what I've found.

Announcement of NCAA Ban's Native American Imagery beginning on Feb. 1st, 2006 - August 2005

Florida State, Central Michigan, Utah all removed from list - LESS THAN ONE MONTH LATER - August/Sept 2005

Dr. Kelley and Faison hired at UND - 2008

What prevented UND from doing the same and getting approval at the beginning? If saying that Ron His Horse is Thunder would have prevented it back then, well, it's been 5+ years and it's still no different and he's no longer there.

I'm 100% in favor of UND keeping the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo, I've gone ahead purchased a couple hundred dollars worth of clothing in the last few months because it's by far the best logo in sports, but when you're part of an organization (NCAA) which is voluntary and you're relying on written approval from two seperate entities (Standing Rock and Spirit Lake) that are COMPLETELY out of your control, what are you supposed to do? I wish the Standing Rock tribal members would have been allowed to vote on it but neither you, I, Kelley, Faison, etc, etc, etc are able to make them.

The day the settlement was reached was the day the logo was gone, like it or not but Standing Rock was going to just sit back and wait for this past November to drift by.

The other thought I've also always asked myself. If UND does get approval from both tribes how long will it be until one of the two tribes decides the don't like it. 5, 10, 15years? If it were to ever play out like that, what do you think the NCAA would say. "Don't worry UND, they gave you approval back in 20**, we don't care what you have as your name and logo". It's the NCAA's ball, court, stadium, etc, we're just offered the opportunity to be part of it.

That's my $.02.....rip away as needed.

The battle of life is, in most cases, fought uphill; and to win it without a struggle were perhaps to win it without honor. If there were no difficulties there would be no success; if there were nothing to struggle for, there would be nothing to be achieved. To the nickname supporters, take a stand and keep fighting. GO SIOUX!

[homer]

Seriously??? The nickname to supporters, alum and students is bigger than just the hockey team. The fact that the hockey team is the financial engine the runs the athletic dept. is another issue and debate. Kelly and Fasion have never shown support publically for keeping the nickname/logo.. Right or wrong that leaves a very bitter taste in a majority of supporters/alum and specifically this alum. I'm glad that UND is in the Big Sky, but the reality is any other athletic team, especially men's FB or BB is a looooooong way from being relevent on the D1 scene. Hockey is the university flagship athletic team like it or not but to throw that progam under the bus and use it as leverage to your liking in this nickname agrument is _______! Someone else can fill in the blank.

I didn't know that Kelly or Faison could have forced Standing Rock to have a vote. Their lack of public support had nothing to do with them not voting.

All "other" programs are a lot closer to being relevant now that the nickname issue is almost resolved one way or the other. Bottom line is when the agreement was made to drop the name UND had no conference and most of its sports teams where not elgible for post season elgibility for another 10 years. I don't care if you are John Wooden you are not recruiting any players to come play for you if you can't play in the post season. I wasn't throwing hockey under the bus I was stating the obvious that if "the financial engine of the athletic dept" was in the same situation of all other sports and was never going to be post season elgible dropping the nickname would have been done immediately. Stating that is not a reach at all.

Oxbow, trust me I played with the name on front of my jersey and am sad to see it go but I also want our sports teams to get back to being competitive. It is more painful to me to see where our teams have fallen to than lose the nickname. Thats coming from a football alum. As long as the nickname issue was hanging over our head we where always going to be a looooooong way from being relevent. Like it or not the NCAA was going to make it a hurdle to high to overcome in sports where you are competing for recruits against more than 60 schools. Also, to answer the next question that comes up no one knows the Big Sky's stance on the nickname becasue they never had to deal with it. A decision was already made on the nickname before we got accepted.

[homer]

Delusional reasoning at it's finest.

Apparently in Fargo a story can be made with no facts and as long as it doesn't involve ndsu it is held as gospel.

[Blackheart]

Totally agree...it seems like it was either or with those two. Find a D1 conference, blah, blah, blah or fight for nickname/logo. Have never seen or heard from either that trying to accomplish both was ever an option. That to me if the real issue I have with the way this whole thing was handled. Show some fight and still lose nickname, so be it. Give up on that issue to make the D1 transition easier is just a bailout and lack of leadership IMO.

Well stated.

[Bison Dan]

Apparently in Fargo a story can be made with no facts and as long as it doesn't involve ndsu it is held as gospel.

What do you consider facts. Douple says one thing and Kelly is saying it never happened. Believe what you want but this has nothng to do with NDSU. Everyone knows Kelly wanted the name gone so it's not a stretch to say he's had talks with Douple about helping get rid of the name.

[firewall]

I

[Dagger]

Isn't this just a non- story right now. What difference does it make anyway. We are in the Big Sky and very happy. The Summit isn't even a topic right now to UND. Why are Bison fans on here debating about it anyway.

[dakota fairways]

What I don't understand about this whole nickname debate is why wasn't anything done in the legislature two years ago? Why did the debate have to be drug out so long and get to the point of where it is now before they decided to act? At some point, fans and alumni, need to ask themselves is keeping the nickname worth all the potential negatives that come with it? Sanctions would most definitely hurt the football program but it's not just about home playoff games. Even if Standing Rock were to eventually vote to keep the name, we need to again ask ourselves, is it worth it? How many schools would want to play the Fighting Sioux and deal with the potential "issues" (real or perceived) that go with it? We saw it when we went to Dartmouth for hockey. We saw it when we went to Texas Tech for football. With so many options to play other schools, why would DI schools want to play UND in non-conference sports and have to potentially worry about this "potential negative backlash"? I would venture to guess that scheduling in all sports, including hockey, would become more difficult as time goes on and more of the "Dartmouth/Texas Tech" examples take place.

Another thing to consider is what the NCAA may do. Some people are willing to forgo home playoff games to keep the name. What if the NCAA decides to pass a resolution to ban teams with "unapproved" names from all playoff games or impose other sactions? The NCAA could decide to make things very difficult just because it's their league and they can.

I would like to keep the Fighting Sioux as our nickname just like a majority on this board. But at this point in time, we need to ask "Is it worth it" or "at what cost?" If somehow, UND were to keep the nickname, I believe the NCAA would make sure that there were "some costs" that came along with it.

poignant, sobering & well said. +1 for you dmksioux

[homer]

What do you consider facts. Douple says one thing and Kelly is saying it never happened. Believe what you want but this has nothng to do with NDSU. Everyone knows Kelly wanted the name gone soit's not a stretch to say he's had talks with Douple about helping get rid of the name.

And its not a stretch to say there is some sour grapes by Douple and he's looking to save some face and to answer your question I, like most people consider facts something that can be proven. Its not uncommon for a person to stretch the truth to cover thier ass, ask your former president.

Its clear there are no facts to back up what anyone is saying yet it makes a good story for the newspapers. I don't think this has anything to do with ndsu either but since there are no facts to go on with this story that can't be proven either. This whole story is based on who or what a person wants to believe.

[Matt]

And its not a stretch to say there is some sour grapes by Douple and he's looking to save some face and to answer your question I, like most people consider facts something that can be proven. Its not uncommon for a person to stretch the truth to cover thier ass, ask your former president.

Its clear there are no facts to back up what anyone is saying yet it makes a good story for the newspapers. I don't think this has anything to do with ndsu either but since there are no facts to go on with this story that can't be proven either. This whole story is based on who or what a person wants to believe.

I don't blame kolpack for writing this story at all. Imagine for a moment the source is the same and the info differs slightly. Imagine Douple told Kolpack that Chapman asked, pressured, insinuated, etc., Douple to discourage anyone from scheduling UND and smeared UND to the Summit presidents.

Should Kolpack sit on that story? Even if he can't verify Douple's statement with another source? I think by virtue of Douple's position, his statement is in and of itself, newsworthy.

[star2city]

It amazes me that so many on this board want to give Kelley and Faison a free pass.

The denials yesterday by Kelley and Faison are just artfully worded denials like those given by any talented politician.

Kelley is stridently anti-Sioux nickname and two years ago he believed that the nickname was too big a hurdle for a successive DI transition. For him to scheme with Douple to use conference leverage as a means to get rid of the nickname would have been an entirely rational - but unethical - plan. Conference affiliation was seen as the arrow that would kill the Sioux nickname: the perfect assassination weapon that would not cast blame on any individual. Kelley could have easily convinced himself that such an action was brilliant.

Remember, at the time, Spirit Lake approval did not seem possible. Kelley, with his PC mindset, could easily see a Douple agreement as silently heroic. Kelley likely dreamed of the private accolades he would receive from the hallowed grounds of Berkely, Madison, and Boston if he could successfully remove the name.

It's very telling that no other conference commissioner anywhere has ever stated that the Sioux name - especially with the NCAA agreement - was ever a hindrance to membership. Patty Viverito never expressed that lie, neither did Fullerton. Douple's line about the nickname actually implicated the NCAA with duplicity, which the NCAA never would have wanted for legal reasons.

Douple's story is plausible. There is much more to this story than will ever come to light.

Anyone denying that Kelley did not have powerful motivations to make an agreement with Douple is hopelessly naive.

[homer]

I don't blame kolpack for writing this story at all. Imagine for a moment the source is the same and the info differs slightly. Imagine Douple told Kolpack that Chapman asked, pressured, insinuated, etc., Douple to discourage anyone from scheduling UND and smeared UND to the Summit presidents.

Should Kolpack sit on that story? Even if he can't verify Douple's statement with another source? I think by virtue of Douple's position, his statement is in and of itself, newsworthy.

Again, not saying it shouldn't have been printed but when there is no proof of what actually happened, what a person believes depends on who he believes. Kolpack printing the story could uncover a bunch of worms. Remember the night USD accepted the MVFC invite and Terry V. blogged about how if people knew the entire story of what actually went down that it would raise some eyebrows? I doubt he was just talking about a conversation between Kelly and Douple.

[Risky]

If the story was true that we were telling Douple to tell every one that we can't be a member of the Summit until the nickname was settled. Right after he made the announcement he was also telling member schools to not schedule UND. UND needed games on their schedules and yet we were supposed to go along with actions of Douple which hindered us from making schedules for our sports teams. It doesn't make sense.