Smoggy Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Until you do perhaps you shouldn't argue otherwise. I've seen the figure and the difference in average age for these two teams is about a few months at most. Age maybe, but what about college experience? UND dresses at least 9 freshman a game and has only 2 seniors, and one doesn't play. Oshie plays with two sophomores, so I guess Kessel has him there. Every player says it's big step going from juniors to college hockey, no matter what age a player is. I like the argument that Oshie is more valuable to his team, but the ROTY isn't an MVP type award. Kessel will win it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slap Shot Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 I like the argument that Oshie is more valuable to his team... So you're saying UM is the better team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianvf Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 So you're saying UM is the better team. I would say that UMN is probably one of, if not the, best team in the country right now. They are playing very well. Fortunately for Sioux fans, with the one-and-done format of the NCAA tourney, anything can happen. They just have to make it. Kessel will win the ROTY. And he deserves it. Oshie will come up short, but he is going to be very fun to watch in his future year(s) here at UND. And with how Toews has come on lately, they will be quite the duo in the next year or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxnami Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 looks like Kessel has 44 points to Oshies 36, but I would contend that Oshie's are much bigger. See his 7 game winning goals. Also I think Kessel has like 4 or 5 non-PP goals. Thats not making much of an impact. Kozak may have more. Oshie has been huge and I think that he has played his way into the WCHA RotY. Go Oshie. On a side note everyone in the preseason expected Minnesota to have the best freshman class (or so they were rated). At this point it is clear that UND has far and away the best Freshman in the nation. Michigan has disappeared. The Wisconsin freshmen look like it. Other than Kessel and maybe Stoa, Minnesota's freshman have diappointed. For the Sioux I would claim the following: Excelent: Oshie (way above expectations, an animal) Toews (came on late) Lee (though maybe not as much as expected) Chorney (exceeded expectations) Finley (the next masher) Duncan (a 4 year pest) Very good: Jones (solid) Kozak (came on late) good: Watkins (a little diappointing) little impact: Alexander Miller (I would like to see more) Martens Walski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Five-HoleFrenzy Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 looks like Kessel has 44 points to Oshies 36, but I would contend that Oshie's are much bigger. See his 7 game winning goals. Also I think Kessel has like 4 or 5 non-PP goals. Thats not making much of an impact. Kozak may have more. Oshie has been huge and I think that he has played his way into the WCHA RotY. Go Oshie. On a side note everyone in the preseason expected Minnesota to have the best freshman class (or so they were rated). At this point it is clear that UND has far and away the best Freshman in the nation. Michigan has disappeared. The Wisconsin freshmen look like it. Other than Kessel and maybe Stoa, Minnesota's freshman have diappointed. For the Sioux I would claim the following: Excelent: Oshie (way above expectations, an animal) Toews (came on late) Lee (though maybe not as much as expected) Chorney (exceeded expectations) Finley (the next masher) Duncan (a 4 year pest) Very good: Jones (solid) Kozak (came on late) good: Watkins (a little diappointing) little impact: Alexander Miller (I would like to see more) Martens Walski In looking purely at numbers it shows North Dakota has 9 freshmen who registered points with a total of 148 . In comparison Minnesota has 5 freshmen who have registered points for a total of 94. 5 of the top 10 scorers for UND are freshmen. 2 of the top 10 scorers for Minnesota are freshmen. I can't disagree about how good North Dakota's freshmen have been but disappointing for Minnesota? Maybe but with a team that is curently 25-6-5 I don't know how disappointing it really is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yzerman19 Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 I happen to put more weight on goals, and especially game winning goals. I think Kessel has had a good year, but I think that everyone who watched the Sioux play came away saying "wow that Oshie can play". If all you do is look at the numbers, Kessel wins going away, if the votes come from the people who watched the games, I think TJ wins. I watched a lot of conference games both UND and MN ( I live in the TCs), and I rarely saw Kessel impact the outcome of a game, where I saw TJ do it a lot. Kessel is a very good player who demonstrated it on the PP, but not so much at even strength. The real question now is who will stay in college longer between the two. Additionally, I was speaking with a scout who was in Denver and thinks that Toews is the number 2 pick right now after Erik Johnson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diggler Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Part of the reason why there is a push for Oshie to be ROY over Kessel is how he has played compared to what the expectations were for him. He was supposed to be a good player who had the capability to develop into a very good player. Instead he has been a great player from the start. Compare this to Kessel who was supposed to be a great player to begin with. While Oshie could could and did exceed expectations, Kessel could only meet expectations because they were so high to begin with. In some people's minds (non-Gopher fans) since he didn't have Karita like season, Kessel didn't meet them. It's not really fair to Kessel, but that's the way it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yzerman19 Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 ZP had those same kind of expectations (Kessel has) and he was able to live up to them. I think the difference is heart...Oshie and ZP have the heart of champions, Kessel has the heart of a prima donna. Case in point play in the corners, the defensive zone and away from the puck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yzerman19 Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Didn't Zajac outscore Stastny last year when Stastny was ROY? I'd have to check the stats... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosby_87 Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Didn't Zajac outscore Stastny last year when Stastny was ROY? I'd have to check the stats... According to USCHO, in 2004-2005 season: Zajac: 45 GP, 20G-19A-39P Stastny: 42 GP, 17G-28A-45P So to clarify this, Stastny had 6 more points then Zajac in 3 less games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7NationalTitles Posted March 6, 2006 Author Share Posted March 6, 2006 I think Kessel deseves the award because he's the leading scoring freshman in the country Didn't Parise lead the country in freshmen scoring when Vanek won the ROY? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosby_87 Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Didn't Parise lead the country in freshmen scoring when Vanek won the ROY? Nope, Vanek ended up beating him by 1 point even though Vanek played in 45 games compared to Parise's 39. (FYI Vanek had 62 points, Parise had 61) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZSIOUX Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Nope, Vanek ended up beating him by 1 point even though Vanek played in 45 games compared to Parise's 39. (FYI Vanek had 62 points, Parise had 61) but didn't parise end up being a hobey baker finalist (top 10 or so) and vanek did not....you know that the gophs and sioux can recruit when year after year we have these discussion regarding a player from each team....BRING ON THE RODENTS AT THE X THEN AT THE RALPH............... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosby_87 Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Correct. What I found interesting was that Parise was a top 10 finalist in both his years, and Vanek never was(not trying to start anything, I just found that fact interesting because we all know that Vanek was very very good). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7NationalTitles Posted March 6, 2006 Author Share Posted March 6, 2006 Nope, Vanek ended up beating him by 1 point even though Vanek played in 45 games compared to Parise's 39. (FYI Vanek had 62 points, Parise had 61) That may have been true because Vanek had a very good postseason run. I was referring to at the time the ROY was announced during the week of the Final Five, Parise had more points at that time. Whatever happened after, and that was when Vanek passed Parise in points, didn't have any affect on the voting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosby_87 Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 That may have been true because Vanek had a very good postseason run. I was referring to at the time the ROY was announced during the week of the Final Five, Parise had more points at that time. Whatever happened after, and that was when Vanek passed Parise in points, didn't have any affect on the voting. Oh yes then you are correct. I still remember thinking though "what has vanek done that parise hasn't". But IMO this year's rookie of the year should be Kessel. If it was for Rookie MVP(I think there is a difference between most valuable player and player of the year) then I would say Oshie because I feel he is more valuable to the Sioux then Kessel is to the Gophs. But since it is player of the year, I would have to say it would be the offensive dynamo Kessel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yzerman19 Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 I think it is ridiculous to say that any of these young players have been disappointing. I think as far as impact however, Oshie made the biggest splash. Kessel, while compiling an armful of points, racked them up in an almost quiet way. Toews had a quiet year up until the last 3 weeks, where he and Stafford have become a dynamic duo. TJ is the most dynamic rookie, Kessel has the most points. Toews may have the biggest upside the way he has played lately. None of these front runners are disappointments. I wonder if Gopher fans are disappointed in Wheeler? I like him when I watch him play, but his numbers are unimpressive. Chucko has to be the biggest disappointment of the recently hyped players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slap Shot Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 ZP had those same kind of expectations (Kessel has) and he was able to live up to them. I think the difference is heart...Oshie and ZP have the heart of champions, Kessel has the heart of a prima donna. Typical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yzerman19 Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Does anyone know how many of Kessel's points are second assists? Not to take anything away from him. I hope I've been very clear that I think he is a good player. I just think he is one of those guys whose point totals are much greater than his impact appears to be. I have seen him show some flashes of NHL caliber offensive skill, but these occurances are more rare than we saw with ZP or Vanek or Oshie this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosby_87 Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Does anyone know how many of Kessel's points are second assists? Not to take anything away from him. I hope I've been very clear that I think he is a good player. I just think he is one of those guys whose point totals are much greater than his impact appears to be. I have seen him show some flashes of NHL caliber offensive skill, but these occurances are more rare than we saw with ZP or Vanek or Oshie this year. I agree with the bolded part but honestly those two will be NHL superstars some day and I just don't see that Offensive juggernaut in Kessel that I remember seeing in Vanek and Parise. Also the first part, in my opinion second assists are just as important as the primary assist. The play would have never happened had it not been for the second assist and so on. Sure he's probably had a few phantom assists this year, but I'm sure most of the top scorers for each team have. I hate the gophers, but I just have to be realistic about how I feel about Kessel, he is a very good player in college(although, as much as I hate to say it, I honestly think he will be a bust in the pro's.....I sure hope he proves me wrong but I just have a feeling about it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yzerman19 Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 You don't think that Kessel plays like a prima donna? There are very, very skilled players that I call prima donnas. The entire time Mike Modano played in MN I thought he was a prima donna. He changed down in Dallas, and maybe Kessle will change while he's at MN. This is not a Gopher or Kessel hater post. I will give props to Gophs that I think have the heart...Irmen, Kowalska, Ballard, even guys like Jon Waibel had heart. I might ne wrong, but Kessel strikes me as the kind of guy who is disappointed after a big win if he isn't on the score sheet. I have nothing against the guy, and I think he has a ton of talent, I just think he plays like a prima donna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yzerman19 Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 I am not trying to take away from anyone on second assists...the majority of my career points were second assists. I know the difference between getting a second assist because I went into a corner and took a hit and got the puck out to someone who could do something with it, versus passing the puck from the wing to the point on the powerplay and having someone bang in a rebound or take a nice feed from the D man. It doesn't really matter what I think any more though. I wish Kessel would've been more of a dynamo this year, then he might be going pro after this season...instead we are going to have to face a more mature, stronger Phil next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southpaw Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 8 of kessel's assists are 2nd assists (28.5%) 6 of oshie's assists are 2nd assists (37.5%) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yzerman19 Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Thanks for the stats, I was ignorant on that one. I assumed Phil was getting a lot of seconds on that powerplay, but evidently not. Regardless, as I stated before Phil racked up the points, but Oshie seemed to have more of an impact. Maybe it is all about style...Do looks play into this award? If so, that will take a few votes away from Kessel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choyt3 Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Typical. Typical of what? As if you haven't already been told a gazillion times, you are on a pro-UND message board. Don't be looking for objectivity. It isn't going to be here, or at GPL either, for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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