DI vs DII (Horizon League)

[ecbrevik]

The main reason that I am interested in a DI UND is competition. The NCC has always been one of the top conferences in DII as far as nationally competative teams. Unfortunately we have lost 3 very competative teams from our schedules within the last few years. If there were other Universities around that were fairly similar to UND, NDSU, SDSU, and UNC it would be one thing. But there are not too many schools similar in size/competativeness/fan bases in the region that are not already in the NCC. Now just because the 'SUs, UNC, UC-Davis have all gone DI is not a reason just to jump to DI immediately. But at some point you start to say to yourself "If all of these schools believe that they can make it in DI, maybe we should at least look at it."

I don't enjoy replacing these schools with UM-Crookston, MSU-Moorhead, UMary, and possibly Minot State. I do however get excited about the possability of playing Montana, Montana State, Northern Iowa, and even Minnesota and Wisconson on a regular basis. And especially about playing NDSU, SDSU, and UNC again. I think it would be amazing to go to the Ralph on a saturday night with 8-10,000 other people and watch UND take on UM or UW in men's basketball.

I realize that there are alot of issues to deal with if UND were to move to DI. There are alot of pieces that would have to be in place. But I also believe that with alot of  planning/time/patience/commitment, UND could make the move successfully.  Those in charge at UND are there for a reason and I believe that they will make the right choice for UND.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with many of your points, and can certainly respect your desire to play the schools you list. Two things I think are key to what you have mentioned:

1) I don't think you're going to see UM or UW in Grand Forks playing men's basketball. If, and I stress if, you are lucky, they will show up once every 10 years, and even that would suprize me. Those are Big 10 programs, and Wisconsin in particular is a Big 10 power. Big conference programs almost never travel to small conference barns, and that doubles for big conference powers. As I've stated before, just go ask Gonzaga about how easy it is to get a big name team to visit. Gonzaga has a quality program, and has been very frustrated in their efforts to get name schools to visit Spokane. One other problem with getting UW to Grand Forks; they have a policy against playing schools with Native American mascots. That policy is waived for conference rivals and traditional rivals (from before the policy), so its not a problem for the hockey team. However, I doubt the UND basketball team would qualify as a "traditional rival", and we're not going to get into the Big 10.

2) Your points on the need for careful financial planning are well made. Personally I think the money should be in place BEFORE the move, if a move is made. Too many schools jump first, and then just expect the funds will appear because they made the jump.

[ecbrevik]

ecbrevik, I don't care if you knock down the idea of UND moving to Division I. I agree with you on most of your points. However, please don't knock NDSU and our move to Division I. Our move so far has proven to be successful, with the exception of finding a conference. We've raised more money than ever, and are playing much better teams than we would have if we stayed in Division II. So please don't put down our DI move without actually doing a little research first.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And my knock on NDSU was that they made the move without a conference. I don't think that's smart, and everything I've read (i.e., my research first) supports that idea. If NDSU had a conference commitment, I wouldn't have made my comment concerning their move.

BTW, I know 2 NDSU alums down here who agree with me 100% on that statement. I know that doesn't mean you do, but I have read some about DII to DI moves and I have discussed NDSU's move some with the people who are available to me and care about it.

[Smoggy]

How much money would we have gotten for being in the Frozen Four this year? Since only DI teams get a share of that money.

[The Sicatoka]

The move to start the womens hockey team is already costing the state money because of the tuition waivers used.

NDSU's FY02 athletic budget (from the Market Analysis study NDSU had done) included:

Appropriated funds $713,000

Those'd be appropriated (by the state legislature) funds. A recent Forum article said NDSU uses those to pay coaches.

Search as I will in UND's FY04 budget revenues (on the UND IAC site) I can't find a similar line item.

Nine womens hockey scholarships = ~$90k.

[Bison Dan]

NDSU's FY02 athletic budget (from the Market Analysis study NDSU had done) included:

Appropriated funds $713,000

Those'd be appropriated (by the state legislature) funds. A recent Forum article said NDSU uses those to pay coaches.

Search as I will in UND's FY04 budget revenues (on the UND IAC site) I can't find a similar line item.

Nine womens hockey scholarships = ~$90k.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That could have been for anything - coaches teaching, etc. - just because you can't find any line item for it in UND's budget doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I don't think UND would let NDSU get by with getting those funds and not get their fair share. How long will the womens hockey team get the waivers?

[The Sicatoka]

Would this line item from the NDSU FY02 athletic budget (same source) be the same thing as scholarship waivers? (Hint: Yes.)

Institutional support $996,000

Search as I will in UND's FY04 budget revenues (on the UND IAC site) I can't find a similar line item to that either.

[UND Fan]

Tell me if I am looking at this issue incorrectly....

The State of North Dakota isn't supporting a University any more if that school decides to waive tuition for some of their student/athletes. The institution simply is not getting any money to offset the cost of educating these students.

The state legislature appropriates "x" number of dollars for each college to be used for athletics. (By the way, North Dakota is by far one of the most conservative states in providing $ for athletics. Montana provides much more - which has greatly assisted the Montana schools in paying their bills - and they still have challenges doing so!). Bottom line - if tuition for a student gets waived, the State doesn't hand the school more money, the school simply must absorb the cost within their own budget.

That being said, I am sure the legislature would get involved if they thought a school was doing too much of this. Primarily because it may be prejudicial against non-athlete students.

I acknowledge that waivers should appear in Athletic Budgets somewhere.

Again, if this isn't the way it works, please educate me!

[bisonguy]

NDSU's FY02 athletic budget (from the Market Analysis study NDSU had done) included:

Appropriated funds $713,000

Those'd be appropriated (by the state legislature) funds. A recent Forum article said NDSU uses those to pay coaches.

Search as I will in UND's FY04 budget revenues (on the UND IAC site) I can't find a similar line item.

Nine womens hockey scholarships = ~$90k.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you talking about actual revenue and expenses, or just projected revenue and expenses? Search as I might, but the only budget numbers I could find on the IAC site are merely projections.

Two of the projected revenue line items on the IAC site ask the question, "Where exactlly do the dollars from 'Miscellaneous Income' and 'Administrative Income' come from?".

[The Sicatoka]

Two of the projected revenue line items on the IAC site ask the question, "Where exactlly do the dollars from 'Miscellaneous Income' and 'Administrative Income' come from?".

I'll take wondering about those two UND projected line items,

Administrative Income $152,500

Miscellaneous Income $150,000

as long as someone can tell me if NDSU's Mr. Inniger raised the last $600k he needed to raise by June 30. Remember: The Forum reported on April 17 that he'd only raised $400k of the $1 million he (alone, not TeamMakers dollars) was responsible to raise of NDSU's projected FY05 budget. He needs to raise another $1 million for FY06 according to the same report.

[star2city]

Looks like Northern Kentucky is staying DII, until they raise more money:

NKU regents reject Division I

The school's push toward Division I gained impetus this spring when the Kentucky General Assembly appropriated $54 million for a new arena at the school that will seat 8,000 to 10,000 people.

...

A starting point could be finding a way to finance the first three phases of an ambitious $115 million sports complex that NKU Vice President Ken Ramey outlined for regents Wednesday.  Ramey said the key facilities needed for Division I - a soccer stadium, track and field stadium and baseball stadium - are included at a total cost of $19 million in the first three phases of the sports complex proposed for 100 acres along Johns Hill Road on campus.  Right now, there's no money for anything in the sports complex plan and Ramey referred to it as "big dreams," although he added, "We think it is do-able in phases."  Brown, the chairman of the board of regents, said he and other regents are interested in learning more about prospects for implementing parts of the plan. "We would like to do this in different phases," said Brown. "The university is going to give us a strategic 10-year plan about how we can go about upgrading facilities and the cost.

Seems strangely consistent with UND's actions: build the facilities first.

Cincinnati Enquirer: NKU opts to remain in Div. II, for now

Chris Stafford from PricewaterhouseCoopers presented a study that gauged perceptions from those affected by the change.  Seventy percent of the 914 students who responded to an Internet questionnaire said athletics was not important when they decided to attend NKU. About 34 percent backed a tuition increase to move to Division I.

If NKU is to comply with the NCAA's five-year transition to Division I, its officials want to first find a conference to join.  In a Carr Sports Associates Inc. report, consultant Bill Carr named the Horizon League and Mid-Continent Conference as potential options and recommended that the Norse not maintain independent status or create a new conference.

[star2city]

Greeley (Colo) Tribune on UNC's budget issues:

http://www.greeleytrib.com/article/20050710/SPORTS/107100038

http://www.greeleytrib.com/article/20050710/SPORTS/107100036

The pressure will increase when the Bears try to compete with better-funded schools. Numbers show if UNC were to begin Big Sky play today, it would be the conference's worst-funded program. In fiscal year 2003-2004, UNC spent $4.4 million on its athletic programs, $821,868 less than Sacrament State, the conference's worst-funded department, according to official reports filed with the government. Complete information for the 2004-05 fiscal year isn't available until October when schools submit their reports.

However, UNC athletic director Jay Hinrichs has confidence the university will be financially competitive when it begins Big Sky play.

"By '07-08, I would like to have the average of the Big Sky budgets," he said.

[bincitysioux]

Everyone knows that it is going to take more money if a move to DI is to happen. Kupchella has stated from the very beginning that a move would have to be funded by a large increase in scholarship endowments. At one point he threw out that an increase of $70 million in endowments would be needed.

I am one who does support a close look at DI. But I also understand that there are things that need to be in place before a move can happen, most importantly a source of money. Scholarship endowments would be one of the most obvious and reliable sources.

Also, I don't believe that school prestige is a large reason that people are interested in a move to DI. I have no dreams that 5,000 additional students from around the nation are going to flock to Grand Forks to attend UND just because our football team now plays DI-AA football.

The main reason that I am interested in a DI UND is competition. The NCC has always been one of the top conferences in DII as far as nationally competative teams. Unfortunately we have lost 3 very competative teams from our schedules within the last few years. If there were other Universities around that were fairly similar to UND, NDSU, SDSU, and UNC it would be one thing. But there are not too many schools similar in size/competativeness/fan bases in the region that are not already in the NCC. Now just because the 'SUs, UNC, UC-Davis have all gone DI is not a reason just to jump to DI immediately. But at some point you start to say to yourself "If all of these schools believe that they can make it in DI, maybe we should at least look at it."

I don't enjoy replacing these schools with UM-Crookston, MSU-Moorhead, UMary, and possibly Minot State. I do however get excited about the possability of playing Montana, Montana State, Northern Iowa, and even Minnesota and Wisconson on a regular basis. And especially about playing NDSU, SDSU, and UNC again. I think it would be amazing to go to the Ralph on a saturday night with 8-10,000 other people and watch UND take on UM or UW in men's basketball.

As far as the report done on DIIs moving to DI, I believe there are some good facts in there and some real concerns that would have to be looked at. But I also acknowledge that this report was done by those in charge of DII to "encourage"  more schools to stay in DII and not consider a jump to DI.

I realize that there are alot of issues to deal with if UND were to move to DI. There are alot of pieces that would have to be in place. But I also believe that with alot of  planning/time/patience/commitment, UND could make the move successfully.  Those in charge at UND are there for a reason and I believe that they will make the right choice for UND.

Exactly! 3 of the top 4 NCC teams are now gone. Other than Winona St., I don't see any real exciting possible additions, and they probably wouldn't leave the NSIC anyways because they rule it.

That would be awesome to go to the Ralph and see UM or UW. Sure, it might only happen every 10 years, or not at all, but it would be nice if it were at least a possiblity. It was pretty cool when Kansas was here! It is realistic though that Montana, Montana St., UW-GB, UW-Milwaukee, could be coming to GF on a regular basis. Everyone of those teams is far more excitable than UND's current entire non-conference schedule.

[ecbrevik]

Exactly!  3 of the top 4 NCC teams are now gone.  Other than Winona St., I don't see any real exciting possible additions, and they probably wouldn't leave the NSIC anyways because they rule it.

That would be awesome to go to the Ralph and see UM or UW.  Sure, it might only happen every 10 years, or not at all, but it would be nice if it were at least a possiblity.  It was pretty cool when Kansas was here!  It is realistic though that Montana, Montana St., UW-GB, UW-Milwaukee, could be coming to GF on a regular basis.  Everyone of those teams is far more excitable than UND's current entire non-conference schedule.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats all fine and good, how much more are you willing to pay each year in increased tuition, student fees, and ticket prices to see that more exciting schedule? Because the UND athletic department is going to need to raise additional money to the tune of millions of dollars.

[dakotadan]

2) Your points on the need for careful financial planning are well made. Personally I think the money should be in place BEFORE the move, if a move is made. Too many schools jump first, and then just expect the funds will appear because they made the jump.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I completely agree with you that the money should be in place before a move ever happens. I am glad that UND did not make a reactionary jump when the 'SUs moved. That is why I mentioned the scholarship endowments. These are the most reliable source of finance as they contribute every year, as compared to a one time donation.

Whether we stay DII or move DI, I would still like to see a capital campaign to raise money for athletics. No matter what level we are at, UND athletics should be fully funded. I was suprised to hear that UN-O had a higher budget than UND. But if I'm not mistaken isn't this because they sponsor more sports?

BTW, I saw a lady driving around GF the other day with a UN-O hockey sticker in her window. I thought it was kind of neat, you don't really hear too much about UNO hockey yet.

[star2city]

The Salt Lake Tribune had a rather long expose' on Utah Valley State's move to DI

Utah Valley State's unprecedented leap

No school ever has done what UVSC is in the midst of doing, jumping straight from the junior college ranks into NCAA Division I athletics. Even Dixie State College in St. George, when deciding to move from a two-year program to four, felt Division II was the way to go.

"We were all naive about it," UVSC athletic director Michael Jacobsen says in one of his if-I'd-known-then-what-I-know-now moments. "When we talked to the NCAA, they said, 'You don't want to do this.' I now see why."

"It's a good thing I didn't know," Jacobsen says.

[The Sicatoka]

The Salt Lake Tribune had a rather long expose' on Utah Valley State's move to DI

Utah Valley State's unprecedented leap

Another interesting line from the story:

The decision also was made to forego football, which traditionally is a money-eater.

[star2city]

The possibility of UND being accepted into a DI conference may have taken a hit by the Sioux name issue. Supposedly, Montana State has been an advocate of UND, NDSU, SDSU joining the BSC. With rhetoric like this, it might be less likely:

Bozeman Daily Chronicle: NCAA Indian mascot ban praised at Montana State

MSU President Geoff Gamble, who earned his Ph.D. studying and preserving Indian languages, said he supports the decision by NCAA President Myles Brand and the executive committee.

"I think we have to be sensitive to our First Nations people," Gamble said. "To the extent they feel ... cheated or diminished by nicknames and mascots that universities use, that's wrong."

While it's true that members of the Seminole tribe seem to be OK with Florida State keeping the Seminoles nickname, Gamble said in North Dakota, Indian people feel diminished by that university's nickname, the Fighting Sioux.

"It's hard to do what's right sometimes and Myles Brand understands it," Gamble said.

[PCM]

While it's true that members of the Seminole tribe seem to be OK with Florida State keeping the Seminoles nickname, Gamble said in North Dakota, Indian people feel diminished by that university's nickname, the Fighting Sioux.

So he's conducted a poll of all Sioux in North Dakota? Were the Spirit Lake Sioux left out of the poll?

[star2city]

The Big Sky may be talking expansion again:

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm...&section=Sports

Fullerton said he wants to make sure the league looks at the future and considers all options. That could include a 12-team, two-division conference setup.

The absolute earliest the Big Sky would add teams is 2007-8.

This has already been stated by a very respected poster (RD17) on D2football, but with an appeals and court process that may be long and drawn out, the ideal window of opportunity to deal with the 4 years of no home post-season games is during a DI transition. With the Big Sky making a little noise again about adding teams, why not make use of any postseason home game ban by going through the DI transition, when there is no postseason anyway.

As has been suggested here before, the Big Sky in 2008-9 (the first years NDSU & SDSU are fully eligible):

East - UND, NDSU, SDSU, UNC, Montana, MSU

West - Idaho St, Weber St, N Ariz, Sac St, Port St, E Wash

The Big Sky would make a precondition that UND's nickname issue must be resolved with no NCAA restrictions by 2011 / 2012, when UND would be fully DI eligible.

[Cratter]

The Big Sky may be talking expansion again:

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm...&section=Sports

The absolute earliest the Big Sky would add teams is 2007-8.

This has already been stated by a very respected poster (RD17) on D2football, but with an appeals and court process that may be long and drawn out, the ideal window of opportunity to deal with the 4 years of no home post-season games is during a DI transition. With the Big Sky making a little noise again about adding teams, why not make use of any postseason home game ban by going through the DI transition, when there is no postseason anyway.

As has been suggested here before, the Big Sky in 2008-9 (the first years NDSU & SDSU are fully eligible):

East - UND, NDSU, SDSU, UNC, Montana, MSU

West - Idaho St, Weber St, N Ariz, Sac St, Port St, E Wash

The Big Sky would make a precondition that UND's nickname issue must be resolved with no NCAA restrictions by 2011 / 2012, when UND would be fully DI eligible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Fargo media seems absolutely desperate to get into the Big Sky. They probably call Doug Fullerton every other week:

Kolpack: "You going to talk expansion at this meeting."

Fullterton: "Yeah we do every year....but

[star2city]

The Fargo media seems absolutely desperate to get into the Big Sky.  They probably call Doug Fullerton  every other week:

Kolpack:  "You going to talk expansion at this meeting."

Fullterton:  "Yeah we do every year....but

Kolpack: "Come on you can do better NDSU really wants into your league can't you dedicate more time to our lovely sports teams."

Fullterton: "NO....quit bugging me."

nicely written as.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Normally, I would agree with this assessment. But not this time. Fullerton wouldn’t even talk about a two-division Big Sky unless he had some reasonable expectation that it really was going to happen. Moreover, it would be extremely bad taste to tease NDSU and SDSU a third time. During the first rejection, the Big Sky really wasn’t interested. Even though NDSU and SDSU were rejected the second time, they were more like bridesmaids as a two-division conference became a longer-term vision. UNC had to be picked to give the Big Sky an anchor in the Denver media. But this third time will be the charm, as there really will be genuine interest, and in UND even moreso. Both NDSU and SDSU will be out of the transition period in 2008-9, so it can be expected that they would have potential suitors (MidCon may also be showing some interest about now) about two years before -right about now. The Big Sky will accept one school transitioning to DI, but never two or more.

By this time next year, we may owe NDSU and SDSU big time gratitude for doing the heavy plowing.

[UND92,96]

Here is a Forum article on the Big Sky meeting from yesterday. Is it a surprise that a 12-team, 2-division Big Sky didn't even warrant much discussion?

[star2city]

The Fargo media seems absolutely desperate to get into the Big Sky.  They probably call Doug Fullerton  every other week:

Kolpack:  "You going to talk expansion at this meeting."

Fullterton:  "Yeah we do every year....but

[jimdahl]

UND to perform classification study

Athletic director Tom Buning said the makeup of the committee has yet to be determined, but it will be a "broad spectrum of people."

"It will be university-led," Buning said.

The school may ask the NCAA to consider moving some sports to Division I and leaving others in Division II.

The strategic plan also calls for a financial study.

Buning said he wants to hire a consultant to aid in the process.

None of this is really new, having been talked about for at least a year or so and having been directly called for this summer in Strategic Plan II, but the ball is rolling.

[dakotadan]

A target starting date for UND