Some Thoughts on UND's FB Program

[90siouxfan]

Is this what they call a dumpster fire?

[siouxfan512]

7 hours ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

 

“Ralph Engelstad Arena, a $110 million gift from her father to the university, was completed in 2001 as the new home to UND hockey. The arena, contracted to be turned over to UND in 2030, was just one topic of many discussed in a wide-ranging interview between McGarry and Forum News Service. McGarry requested the meeting.”

“According to her, Kennedy characterized the arrangement made between the university and her father, Ralph, as written to the benefit of the donor at the expense of UND.”

“(He said) my dad made a bad deal when he first gave them this gift,” she said, a comment Kennedy said he doesn’t recall saying.

The school eventually retired the Sioux name and logo at the behest of the NCAA and now officially uses the Fighting Hawks nickname for its athletic teams. But the Sioux logo still remains in the Ralph, embedded in marble floors, and on seats and other fixtures.

Because of that, McGarry said, Kennedy has accused the family of “creating brand confusion” for the school, a charge she views as unfair.

source: https://bismarcktribune.com/i-want-to-see-him-do-his-job-kris-engelstad-mcgarry-describes-hostile-relationship-with/article_35608880-d9e5-5293-b78c-231b98677ae8.html

 

In 2018 and 2019, Engelstad spoke publicly about her strained relationship with Mark Kennedy, who at the time was UND's president. The Herald reported in 2019 that Engelstad said the foundation wouldn’t give direct funds to the university until Kennedy was no longer president, though it continued to support student scholarships and the hockey program. Kennedy left UND in May 2019.
 

Source: https://www.grandforksherald.com/news/north-dakota/engelstad-foundation-crosses-500-million-in-giving-kris-engelstad-hopes-to-strengthen-relationship-with-und

 

Kennedy was right. He knew what needed to be done to right the ship and help out football, and quite frankly make funding fair, but he was ousted due to public outcry, stirred up by Engelstad. When called out, though, they would still fund hockey, just nothing else, which is basically the current arrangement now that all is good again for the hockey moguls. You think the Engelstads walk on water too, I see. You’re easily convinced, but that’s no surprise. And I don’t find my desire to improve UND football hilarious, but thanks for posting your opinion, @siouxfan512. And as for numb comments by @jdub27, you think it’s a coincidence Kennedy left for Colorado in 2019? That’s the real hilarious piece in all of this. Ha! Ha! Ha! Why don’t you read up on some facts and get back to us. Thanks. Easily manipulated like the majority of GF was back in 2018-19 … shame, shame, shame. 

So, if we received a $100M gift for football tomorrow (Stadium, Uniforms, NIL funds, practice facilities, etc.), would you be complaining about how it puts the football program on a pedestal and isn't fair to the basketball or volleyball program? or golf, or whatever?

[UND-FB-FAN]

10 hours ago, Sioux>Bison said:

No one cares about all this talk, do something about it and quit tainting this forum!

The whole point of a forum is “talk”. You can’t “do something” on a forum, but you can set forth the foundation and discuss ideas.

Nice try, though.

[UND-FB-FAN]

10 hours ago, Sioux>Bison said:

How is his blabbering on this forum supposed to get UND better recruits?

You’re beyond paranoid if you think this forum is a major player in recruiting. 

[UND-FB-FAN]

10 hours ago, Sioux>Bison said:

Big Donors, Bubba, Prez Andy, Alumni Assc, Champions Club, hell anyone with a brain comes on this forum to figure out ideas to improve UND athletics. AND if they did they would read a couple threads and never come back on this forum! This B*^*#€+= is not going to fix anything.

all this does is make UND look bad to the actual people who might come on this forum to gauge what’s going on like prospective recruits and their parents. UND Football Fan makes us look BAD! I really hope UND football kicks arse this fall so that UND Football Fan chokes on some CROW!

I won’t be choking on sh*t; if that happens. I’ll be attending the games with a smile and congratulating the staff each step of the way, from the blue turf to the Alerus Center as the piss yellow fan base exits in disappointment. With all that said, I can also be realistic. The direction of the program is worrisome - more so due to the lack of support from Chaves and the hockey-centric mindset enabled by Engelstad gift(s) - but there are things that can be done to fix it. Since @Sioux>Bison is too sensitive to read comments about that on here, I guess I’ll have to move it to other forms of communication, which I have no problem with. 

[UND-FB-FAN]

10 hours ago, Sioux>Bison said:

Just because I say I want it on this forum won’t get UND anywhere. If we pony up cash for NIL or facilities, volunteer my time to fundraise , buy season tickets,  etc, for the betterment of the program is the only way change things.

You sure must be a hell of a leader …

Do you realize UND hires people to do what you’re suggesting? Obviously not, albeit it’s fair to argue they’re not getting the job done. 
 

It’s okay to use a forum to communicate with passionate fans about ways to encourage more support, but as your replies indicate, there will always be some “fans” who don’t get it.

[UND-FB-FAN]

9 hours ago, siouxfan512 said:

So, if we received a $100M gift for football tomorrow (Stadium, Uniforms, NIL funds, practice facilities, etc.), would you be complaining about how it puts the football program on a pedestal and isn't fair to the basketball or volleyball program? or golf, or whatever?

It’s standard place for football to receive the major donations in terms of collegiate athletics in the U.S.A.

It is NOT commonplace for hockey to receive the major donations.

Public opinion matters because that is what fills the seats. 
 

UND and greater GF region consistently fills the REA, but regionally and nationally speaking, UND has become more and more irrelevant of late in other sports because they aren’t funded (nor focused on) at the level needed to excel. It’s not all just about filling up the REA, which many are content with cause that is done year after year, but it’s about pushing the brand forward regionally and nationally. That will increase enrollment, recruiting, and further perpetuate success. Football and basketball are far more popular nationally than hockey, so those other sports absolutely matter. 

So to answer your question, yes; a $100M gift to UND football would do wonders for UND athletics as a whole, but that surprises no one. You get what you pay for. 

[The Sicatoka]

Let's run the @UND-FB-FAN scenario out: 

Say you take 10-20% of funding from hockey to FB. Based on money matters per this line of thought, hockey will see a degradation. But will FB see enough of an impact from it?

Even if UND FB used it to win an FCS title we'd be just another FB team in the region with one. What would be UND's differentiator in that scenario? 

Again, what would be UND's differentiator in that scenario. 

Would an FCS title and a mediocre hockey program satisfy the masses. The masses. It'll satisfy, overjoy, some, but the greater of UND's fan base will be turned off. And that's a net negative for everyone. 

Today, like it or not, hockey differentiates UND from the rest of the region. And differentiation is good, though some may believe otherwise. 

The better approach would be to quit being envious and covetous of hockey and instead use it as the model to follow: Find the money and use it as a fulcrum to more. 

[The Sicatoka]

59 minutes ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

It’s standard place for football to receive the major donations in terms of collegiate athletics in the U.S.A.

It is NOT commonplace for hockey to receive the major donations.

Yeah. And? 

Differentiation. 

What if some anonymous donor gave $350M for brain research or engineering, and not football? Still a problem? It also happened 20 years ago. Should RPI have dumped it into football and basketball?  

[Teeder11]

41 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

Let's run the @UND-FB-FAN scenario out: 

Say you take 10-20% of funding from hockey to FB. Based on money matters per this line of thought, hockey will see a degradation. But will FB see enough of an impact from it?

Even if UND FB used it to win an FCS title we'd be just another FB team in the region with one. What would be UND's differentiator in that scenario? 

Again, what would be UND's differentiator in that scenario. 

Would an FCS title and a mediocre hockey program satisfy the masses. The masses. It'll satisfy, overjoy, some, but the greater of UND's fan base will be turned off. And that's a net negative for everyone. 

Today, like it or not, hockey differentiates UND from the rest of the region. And differentiation is good, though some may believe otherwise. 

The better approach would be to quit being envious and covetous of hockey and instead use it as the model to follow: Find the money and use it as a fulcrum to more. 

Don't bring critical thought into the discussion. Wait, no, please do!  

[iramurphy]

4 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

Yeah. And? 

Differentiation. 

What if some anonymous donor gave $350M for brain research or engineering, and not football? Still a problem? It also happened 20 years ago. Should RPI have dumped it into football and basketball?  

You are correct. Donors will often direct their funds.  Our families endowment is for engineering students and for Alzheimer’s research.  It is modest and we can add from time to time  Alumni staff presented an opportunity to include UND in our will/trust which resulted in an immediate $10,000 to the engineering endowment from an anonymous donor.  I believe that is an example of how the Alumni staff are working very hard to entice donors and to reach out.  Our post grad relationship started years ago when my wife and I attended an alumni function.  

I believe we can achieve our goals of being one of the top FCS teams on a regular basis in FB and top teams in conference in MBB, WBB, and VB. I don’t have all of the answers. We need to be willing to think outside the box which is why I think it is a good idea for people to try to reconnect with UND. They obviously have made mistakes with some supporters and can always do better. I believe when building or rebuilding relationships if we wait for the other party to be the first one to reach out, we may get frustrated. Don’t wait to meet them half way, meet them wherever we have an opportunity to reconnect. Our new softball facility along with the ability to play/practice in the Pollard will be a big plus. We are seeing improvements in track and tennis. If anyone wishes to be part of things moving forward there are opportunities that UND  can customize to our wishes and ability to participate or donate. 

UND has a very positive social media presence. 25 of our graduating seniors (12%) are going to UND this fall. (Everyone of them received a scholarship from DL dollars for scholars of at least $1000.  We give $250,000 or more each year to our graduating seniors. As president of that group I believe I have learned some things about fund raising, working with the million dollar donors as well as those who can donate $25).  
UND reaches out to Alumni regularly. They host Alumni get togethers in many locations across the country.  I will attend 3 in July.  I would suggest contacting the UND alumni office to find one in our respective areas. It is an opportunity to meet and chat with the president, AD, CC staff, Alumni staff and coaches. More importantly it is an opportunity to reconnect with the University and fellow Alumni. 
 

That may not work for everyone, but I would be surprised if most wouldn’t at least feel more connected. 

[siouxfan512]

2 hours ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

It’s standard place for football to receive the major donations in terms of collegiate athletics in the U.S.A.

It is NOT commonplace for hockey to receive the major donations.

Public opinion matters because that is what fills the seats. 
 

UND and greater GF region consistently fills the REA, but regionally and nationally speaking, UND has become more and more irrelevant of late in other sports because they aren’t funded (nor focused on) at the level needed to excel. It’s not all just about filling up the REA, which many are content with cause that is done year after year, but it’s about pushing the brand forward regionally and nationally. That will increase enrollment, recruiting, and further perpetuate success. Football and basketball are far more popular nationally than hockey, so those other sports absolutely matter. 

So to answer your question, yes; a $100M gift to UND football would do wonders for UND athletics as a whole, but that surprises no one. You get what you pay for. 

I love how blatant and obvious your hypocrisy is. Just to clarify, its ok for football to receive a big donation, but not for hockey to. So what would your suggestion have been to the school; turn down the REA donation? Thanks, but no thanks? Would you have cared if this was for track and field? or golf? Or is this once again just your hatred of hockey shining through.

Sorry, I just get sick of reading your nonsense, it equates to a kid throwing a tantrum because something isn't fair. Lets call it what it is ... jealousy. Which I totally understand. When someone has something really nice, why wouldn't you want the same. I'd love for football to have the same caliber of facilities as hockey, but unless you've got another extremely wealthy donor ready to put their name on a building the conversation is moot. Hockey got the money because Ralph was a hockey guy. Pretty clear that when someone specifies what their donation is for you can't just divert their funds to something else.

Also worth noting that even if Football had all the donations in the world, it wouldn't necessarily flip a switch and make UND a dominant program (it would certainly help). We still have NDSU in our backyard and they will still win recruiting battles because they win on the field. Obviously money and facilities help; I'd never deny that. Though lets also look back at hockey. We had plenty of high end players before the REA was built, and we've missed on plenty of high end players since the arena was built. Plenty of other factors.

[SlowHand]

Is it really so bad excelling at hockey and being just ok with football? 

Pick one and do it the best?

Its not terrible that North Dakota has a great football school and a great hockey school IMO.

[siouxfan512]

25 minutes ago, SlowHand said:

Is it really so bad excelling at hockey and being just ok with football? 

Pick one and do it the best?

Its not terrible that North Dakota has a great football school and a great hockey school IMO.

Nah, I think that is kind of lame. You should strive to be strong in all programs. I don't care to settle for mediocrity. That seems to be the common cry from NDSU fans, which makes sense, they don't want another strong football program in the state. Things are going just fine the way they are for them and they have enough competition regionally with SDSU, wouldn't want someone else stepping in.

[SlowHand]

15 minutes ago, siouxfan512 said:

Nah, I think that is kind of lame. You should strive to be strong in all programs. I don't care to settle for mediocrity. That seems to be the common cry from NDSU fans, which makes sense, they don't want another strong football program in the state. Things are going just fine the way they are for them and they have enough competition regionally with SDSU, wouldn't want someone else stepping in.

Nice assumption, wrong but ok.

 

[jdub27]

4 hours ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

 more so due to the lack of support from Chaves and the hockey-centric mindset enabled by Engelstad gift(s)

Imagine not supporting a program but somehow managing to get 19 regular season home games over the next 3 years scheduled. Truly amazing.

[Sioux>Bison]

50 minutes ago, SlowHand said:

Nice assumption, wrong but ok.

 

NDSU has strong programs in almost every sport. Not the best at all of them but many of them near the top of the standings. 
 

I think it’s possible to have a top 10 FB team and a top 5 hockey program , but for football to get to the elite level of NDSU it’s going to be really tough even with more donor money. Nothing wrong with a UND football program that on an average season makes the playoffs. I want titles but I know that’s going to be really tough to repeat year after year

[Sioux>Bison]

24 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

Imagine not supporting a program but somehow managing to get 19 regular season home games over the next 3 years scheduled. Truly amazing.

He also fails to realize that hockey has triple the amount of home games to fill the Ralph with 11k fans each night. That means we should spend triple the amount on hockey as we do football. Football at best will only sell 72,000 ish tickets per year for 6 home games

[F'n Hawks]

1 hour ago, SlowHand said:

Is it really so bad excelling at hockey and being just ok with football? 

Pick one and do it the best?

Its not terrible that North Dakota has a great football school and a great hockey school IMO.

This would be a terrible attitude to have. You want us to be just ok with being mediocre at football? 

[F'n Hawks]

And also are we even excelling at hockey right now either?

[The Sicatoka]

2 minutes ago, F'n Hawks said:

This would be a terrible attitude to have. You want us to be just ok with being mediocre at football? 

As an NDSU fan, yes he (SlowHand) does. 

[siouxfan512]

1 hour ago, SlowHand said:

Nice assumption, wrong but ok.

 

Not saying you specifically, but there are plenty of Bison fans that would love to see UND fold there football program altogether. Look no further than Bisonville, where they clearly state they do not want UND to be a football school.

[jdub27]

2 hours ago, Sioux>Bison said:

He also fails to realize that hockey has triple the amount of home games to fill the Ralph with 11k fans each night. That means we should spend triple the amount on hockey as we do football. Football at best will only sell 72,000 ish tickets per year for 6 home games

That wasn't even the point of where I was taking that. Scheduling is hard and home games cost money. Yet UND has 19 of them in the next 3 years. That doesn't happen by accident. I can assure you teams aren't lining up to play in Grand Forks, where UND is tough to beat, without some hard work being put in.

[UND-FB-FAN]

5 hours ago, The Sicatoka said:

Let's run the @UND-FB-FAN scenario out: 

Say you take 10-20% of funding from hockey to FB. Based on money matters per this line of thought, hockey will see a degradation. But will FB see enough of an impact from it?

Even if UND FB used it to win an FCS title we'd be just another FB team in the region with one. What would be UND's differentiator in that scenario? 

Again, what would be UND's differentiator in that scenario. 

Would an FCS title and a mediocre hockey program satisfy the masses. The masses. It'll satisfy, overjoy, some, but the greater of UND's fan base will be turned off. And that's a net negative for everyone. 

Today, like it or not, hockey differentiates UND from the rest of the region. And differentiation is good, though some may believe otherwise. 

The better approach would be to quit being envious and covetous of hockey and instead use it as the model to follow: Find the money and use it as a fulcrum to more. 

Your assumption that UND hockey would degrade is the issue. There’s no evidence it would get any worse by reallocating 10-20% of funding. In fact, could they get much worse?  The past few seasons have been petty the way it is. How does St Could State and Duluth out-compete the better funded UND year after year? Funding is not the whole story, but nice try. Funding is just a piece of the puzzle. UND hockey could and would still differentiate UND despite a 10-20% reallocation and UND would better position themselves in the region with FCS titles. If UND is winning FCS titles, then NDSU and SDSU are not. And I don’t think hockey’s model is one easily replicated; how long we gonna have to wait for another $100M donation to come from a single donor/trust? And will it be directed towards a non-hockey sport in full? I doubt it.

[UND-FB-FAN]

4 hours ago, siouxfan512 said:

I love how blatant and obvious your hypocrisy is. Just to clarify, its ok for football to receive a big donation, but not for hockey to. So what would your suggestion have been to the school; turn down the REA donation? Thanks, but no thanks? Would you have cared if this was for track and field? or golf? Or is this once again just your hatred of hockey shining through.

Sorry, I just get sick of reading your nonsense, it equates to a kid throwing a tantrum because something isn't fair. Lets call it what it is ... jealousy. Which I totally understand. When someone has something really nice, why wouldn't you want the same. I'd love for football to have the same caliber of facilities as hockey, but unless you've got another extremely wealthy donor ready to put their name on a building the conversation is moot. Hockey got the money because Ralph was a hockey guy. Pretty clear that when someone specifies what their donation is for you can't just divert their funds to something else.

Also worth noting that even if Football had all the donations in the world, it wouldn't necessarily flip a switch and make UND a dominant program (it would certainly help). We still have NDSU in our backyard and they will still win recruiting battles because they win on the field. Obviously money and facilities help; I'd never deny that. Though let’s also look back at hockey. We had plenty of high end players before the REA was built, and we've missed on plenty of high end players since the arena was built. Plenty of other factors.

No, you’ve misinterpreted my posts, I’m afraid. Hockey can get donations, but to accept a deal that relegates the other non-hockey sports, when in fact those other sports are more highly recognized on a national scale, is unideal. I don’t hate hockey, but using hockey to dismiss the other sports is foolish. Hockey should be on equal ground with football and basketball; that’s not jealousy, that common-sense and evidenced-based as per national trends. As for differentiation, having a major hockey program in an $100M arena will always differentiate UND from other athletic departments. But what they don’t do for the other sports - mainly football and basketball - in order to uphold hockey is the issue. Football and basketball need to be elevated, and thus keeping UND hockey head and shoulders above the rest is not a progressive comprehensive approach moving forward. 
 

But what you said the last paragraph I’ve said all along. Many folks rehash posts without reading what has already been posted. There are many factors beyond funding.