Some Thoughts on UND's FB Program

[jdub27]

2 hours ago, Sioux>Bison said:

He also fails to realize that hockey has triple the amount of home games to fill the Ralph with 11k fans each night. That means we should spend triple the amount on hockey as we do football. Football at best will only sell 72,000 ish tickets per year for 6 home games

That wasn't even the point of where I was taking that. Scheduling is hard and home games cost money. Yet UND has 19 of them in the next 3 years. That doesn't happen by accident. I can assure you teams aren't lining up to play in Grand Forks, where UND is tough to beat, without some hard work being put in.

[UND-FB-FAN]

5 hours ago, The Sicatoka said:

Let's run the @UND-FB-FAN scenario out: 

Say you take 10-20% of funding from hockey to FB. Based on money matters per this line of thought, hockey will see a degradation. But will FB see enough of an impact from it?

Even if UND FB used it to win an FCS title we'd be just another FB team in the region with one. What would be UND's differentiator in that scenario? 

Again, what would be UND's differentiator in that scenario. 

Would an FCS title and a mediocre hockey program satisfy the masses. The masses. It'll satisfy, overjoy, some, but the greater of UND's fan base will be turned off. And that's a net negative for everyone. 

Today, like it or not, hockey differentiates UND from the rest of the region. And differentiation is good, though some may believe otherwise. 

The better approach would be to quit being envious and covetous of hockey and instead use it as the model to follow: Find the money and use it as a fulcrum to more. 

Your assumption that UND hockey would degrade is the issue. There’s no evidence it would get any worse by reallocating 10-20% of funding. In fact, could they get much worse?  The past few seasons have been petty the way it is. How does St Could State and Duluth out-compete the better funded UND year after year? Funding is not the whole story, but nice try. Funding is just a piece of the puzzle. UND hockey could and would still differentiate UND despite a 10-20% reallocation and UND would better position themselves in the region with FCS titles. If UND is winning FCS titles, then NDSU and SDSU are not. And I don’t think hockey’s model is one easily replicated; how long we gonna have to wait for another $100M donation to come from a single donor/trust? And will it be directed towards a non-hockey sport in full? I doubt it.

[UND-FB-FAN]

4 hours ago, siouxfan512 said:

I love how blatant and obvious your hypocrisy is. Just to clarify, its ok for football to receive a big donation, but not for hockey to. So what would your suggestion have been to the school; turn down the REA donation? Thanks, but no thanks? Would you have cared if this was for track and field? or golf? Or is this once again just your hatred of hockey shining through.

Sorry, I just get sick of reading your nonsense, it equates to a kid throwing a tantrum because something isn't fair. Lets call it what it is ... jealousy. Which I totally understand. When someone has something really nice, why wouldn't you want the same. I'd love for football to have the same caliber of facilities as hockey, but unless you've got another extremely wealthy donor ready to put their name on a building the conversation is moot. Hockey got the money because Ralph was a hockey guy. Pretty clear that when someone specifies what their donation is for you can't just divert their funds to something else.

Also worth noting that even if Football had all the donations in the world, it wouldn't necessarily flip a switch and make UND a dominant program (it would certainly help). We still have NDSU in our backyard and they will still win recruiting battles because they win on the field. Obviously money and facilities help; I'd never deny that. Though let’s also look back at hockey. We had plenty of high end players before the REA was built, and we've missed on plenty of high end players since the arena was built. Plenty of other factors.

No, you’ve misinterpreted my posts, I’m afraid. Hockey can get donations, but to accept a deal that relegates the other non-hockey sports, when in fact those other sports are more highly recognized on a national scale, is unideal. I don’t hate hockey, but using hockey to dismiss the other sports is foolish. Hockey should be on equal ground with football and basketball; that’s not jealousy, that common-sense and evidenced-based as per national trends. As for differentiation, having a major hockey program in an $100M arena will always differentiate UND from other athletic departments. But what they don’t do for the other sports - mainly football and basketball - in order to uphold hockey is the issue. Football and basketball need to be elevated, and thus keeping UND hockey head and shoulders above the rest is not a progressive comprehensive approach moving forward. 
 

But what you said the last paragraph I’ve said all along. Many folks rehash posts without reading what has already been posted. There are many factors beyond funding. 

[The Sicatoka]

11 minutes ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

You assumption that UND hockey would degrade is the issue. There’s no evidence it would get any worse by reallocating 10-20% of funding. 

There is no evidence it would or would not; however, you've been consistent that more money will help football. The corollary is less would hurt, be it hockey or football. Does the risk/reward curve say cutting hockey funding is worth the unknown impacts to both football and hockey. I say the better solution is to build up the football donor base, not cut something else. 

An FCS title would better position UND for what? To say UND is just like everyone else? 

Any future donations will go to whatever the donor earmarks it for (see: Memorial Village II softball complex). 

[UND-FB-FAN]

3 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

There is no evidence it would or would not; however, you've been consistent that more money will help football. The corollary is less would hurt, be it hockey or football. Does the risk/reward curve say cutting hockey funding is worth the unknown impacts to both football and hockey. I say the better solution is to build up the football donor base, not cut something else. 

An FCS title would better position UND for what? To say UND is just like everyone else? 

Any future donations will go to whatever the donor earmarks it for (see: Memorial Village II softball complex). 

You did read what I wrote, right?

“How does St Could State and Duluth out-compete the better funded UND year after year? Funding is not the whole story, but nice try. Funding is just a piece of the puzzle. UND hockey could and would still differentiate UND despite a 10-20% reallocation and UND would better position themselves in the region with FCS titles. If UND is winning FCS titles, then NDSU and SDSU are not. “

 

[UND-FB-FAN]

4 hours ago, SlowHand said:

Is it really so bad excelling at hockey and being just ok with football? 

Pick one and do it the best?

It’s not terrible that North Dakota has a great football school and a great hockey school IMO.

Hilarious that the guy on here called @Sioux>Bison likes this post!

UND football will be relegated with this mindset to the point UND will go the UNO route. 

[UND-FB-FAN]

2 hours ago, Sioux>Bison said:

He also fails to realize that hockey has triple the amount of home games to fill the Ralph with 11k fans each night. That means we should spend triple the amount on hockey as we do football. Football at best will only sell 72,000 ish tickets per year for 6 home games

Major bias at play here, which you conveniently tried to skip over. From a cost and quality standpoint, the REA is a far superior venue - and thus easier to sell out - when compared to all other venues UND competes in (Alerus Center, Betty. Etc). 

[UND-FB-FAN]

2 hours ago, siouxfan512 said:

Not saying you specifically, but there are plenty of Bison fans that would love to see UND fold there football program altogether. Look no further than Bisonville, where they clearly state they do not want UND to be a football school.

Correct, which is why you folks need to stop choosing favorites on here. The great leader of the deaf on here @The Sicatoka has stated he does not think UND football would gain much by winning an FCS title … would be just like the rest, he states … unreal   
 

the potential set backs to ndsu and sdsu as well as the wake up call to the dormant und football fans of the region would make it beyond worth it 

[The Sicatoka]

7 minutes ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

... the REA is a far superior venue - and thus easier to sell out - 

So downplay it by focusing on other things. 

[The Sicatoka]

13 minutes ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

You did read what I wrote, right?

Same goes.
I said we don't know. But I also asked if the risk/reward was worth it. 

[UND-FB-FAN]

7 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

So downplay it by focusing on other things. 

Thought experiment… if UND hockey played in the Betty (adapted of course), and UND basketball played in the Ralph, what would the sell-out dynamics be?

Would be very interesting, but given the suites and bars, and other amenities, it is fair to think could still sell out the Ralph whether it’s hockey, basketball or anything else. 

of course, also to consider, if UND basketball was recruiting athletes to play in the Ralph and train in those facilities, UND’s caliber of basketball recruits would be on a whole different level; they wouldn’t be bottom feeders in the Summit, that’s for sure.

overall, the culture of Grand Forks and UND with hockey makes this hard to fathom, but it’s just to get some folks thinking outside of the box 

But again, this just goes to show it all comes down to which program you want to support the most, and what is the philosophy. Do you want one program head and shoulders above the rest, or several really good programs equating to a good overall department? No one wants to degrade hockey, just elevate the others, and perhaps reallocating 10-20% from hockey would do little to no harm to an already overinflated hockey program the way it is 

[The Sicatoka]

10 minutes ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

the potential set backs to ndsu and sdsu as well as the wake up call to the dormant und football fans of the region would make it beyond worth it 

I don't pick strategy by what'll damage the other guy.

I pick strategy by what works for me and can be successful. 

[UND-FB-FAN]

Just now, The Sicatoka said:

I don't pick strategy by what'll damage the other guy.

I pick strategy by what works for me and can be successful. 

I would propose you can accomplish both, as I stated. Hurt ndsu and sdsu, help garner und support. 

[UND08]

7 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

There is no evidence it would or would not; however, you've been consistent that more money will help football. The corollary is less would hurt, be it hockey or football. Does the risk/reward curve say cutting hockey funding is worth the unknown impacts to both football and hockey. I say the better solution is to build up the football donor base, not cut something else. 

An FCS title would better position UND for what? To say UND is just like everyone else? 

Any future donations will go to whatever the donor earmarks it for (see: Memorial Village II softball complex). 

This discussion is still going on???  Gotta love summer...get outside people!!!  Haha...

That said...if I was taking over an athletic department with a lineup like UND's...here would be my observations:

1 - Hockey pays the bills.  It's a cash cow.  It has almost zero potential for future growth.  Where can it go...it's already the top supported college program on the planet.  Based on that level of emphasis...I'd expect a few more banners in the rafters...maybe an honest look at the program performance is warranted.

2 - I don't want to piss off those hockey donors (like I said in a previous post I appreciate UND's hockey heritage)...but if I'm evaluating initiatives to grow the department and realize potential...the first two initiatives that need to be undertaken are improving the following (in order):

a - Men's basketball

b - Football

These are by far the two biggest potential revenue sports outside of hockey.  They used to be consistent performers for the university...but they haven't grown as they should have in the move to D1 IMO...Building a consistent top performer in these sports can be damn near life changing for an athletic department (see NDSU football/Gonzaga (big stretch I know) basketball).

3 - To your point Sic...a big part of #2 is building the donor base.  But besides that...admin/marketing deals that hamstring other sports in favor of hockey are so counter-productive to the goals in two that they should be fire-able offenses in my book.  Hockey really doesn't need emphasis from the department in regard to marketing/admin...it sort of sells itself at this point.  Those other sports need the help at this point...and they also need to repay the added help by being successful.

In short...hockey is the cash cow...but it also has nowhere to go but down.  Football and basketball have a ton of untapped potential.  They should be given every chance to put a winner on the court/field (and if they don't find somebody who will).

[The Sicatoka]

3 minutes ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

Thought experiment… if UND hockey played in the Betty (adapted of course), and UND basketball played in the Ralph, what would the sell-out dynamics be?

UND MBB sold out The Ralph once: it was a Jeff Boschee led Kansas Jayhawks opponent.

UND/NDSU BB games don't fill the lower bowl. 

That's all the thought that took. 

[The Sicatoka]

7 minutes ago, UND08 said:

In short...hockey is the cash cow...but it also has nowhere to go but down.  

And as cash cow, if it does it takes everyone with them. 

Where are the FB and BB donors, the dormant ones who'll fill Alerus and make UND move BB games to The Ralph for capacity. 

[UND-FB-FAN]

1 hour ago, The Sicatoka said:

UND MBB sold out The Ralph once: it was a Jeff Boschee led Kansas Jayhawks opponent.

UND/NDSU BB games don't fill the lower bowl. 

That's all the thought that took. 

Yeah, that’s an unfair characterization and you know it (or maybe you don’t) Game was on 1/17/2012, on a Tuesday, and still brought in 7000+. Not played on a Friday or Saturday night and bars/suites weren’t open that night. 

So, if you don’t think a fully operated and staffed REA for basketball opponents like NDSU, SDSU, Minnesota, etc. would sell out, then you’re missing the point. Plus, again, if the basketball team were to be playing there full time, they would have better players, better setup for basketball, etc.

again, this is not the subject of this thread, so don’t want to go down this path too hard, but just wanted to point out some gaps in your response  
 

[UND-FB-FAN]

8 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

And as cash cow, if it does it takes everyone with them. 

Where are the FB and BB donors, the dormant ones who'll fill Alerus and make UND move BB games to The Ralph for capacity. 

The current philosophy (same one that lives rent free in your head) of UND, propagated by the administration and the deals made with folks such as those in Vegas, is what limits football and basketball as much as the underlying funding. The efforts towards marketing and improving football and basketball have been subpar during the DI era from the get-go. 

[UND Fan]

8 hours ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

The whole point of a forum is “talk”. You can’t “do something” on a forum, but you can set forth the foundation and discuss ideas.

Nice try, though.

How about the $60K+ that ss.com (LHB) has raised for the FB program??

[90siouxfan]

next project should be getting certain fans some counseling....

[UND-FB-FAN]

48 minutes ago, UND Fan said:

How about the $60K+ that ss.com (LHB) has raised for the FB program??

Oh I’m well aware, I contributed to that. I was responding to someone else @Sioux>Bison stating you can’t get anything done on a forum. So, again, don’t @ me. 

[Sioux>Bison]

5 hours ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

Oh I’m well aware, I contributed to that. I was responding to someone else @Sioux>Bison stating you can’t get anything done on a forum. So, again, don’t @ me. 

Yeah they actually did something productive on this forum and raised funds for football.

what has your whining and complaining accomplished on this same forum…….. NOTHING!!!

DO SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE!!!!

[UND-FB-FAN]

8 minutes ago, Sioux>Bison said:

DO SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE!!!!

Okay hot shot, back off, you have no idea. 

Voicing my concerns about UND athletics leadership / philosophy AND supporting / contributing to UND football are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I am principled in that fidelity. Although, I doubt you are able to comprehend that at this point. 

[Sioux>Bison]

7 hours ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

Major bias at play here, which you conveniently tried to skip over. From a cost and quality standpoint, the REA is a far superior venue - and thus easier to sell out - when compared to all other venues UND competes in (Alerus Center, Betty. Etc). 

It’s all about the product on the field. I don’t care where either team plays because I’m going either way. Hell some years I watched more hockey games in person at the target center than at the Ralph and that wasn’t because of the venue. For example the product in the Ralph has taken a nose dive and so has attendance. I even chose to skip a trip for the frozen face off because I didn’t want to watch them lose . I can say I watched more football games last year than hockey games so what does that say about the difference in quality of play. People are not skipping football games because they happen to be held in the Alerus Center

[UND-FB-FAN]

6 minutes ago, Sioux>Bison said:

I don’t care where either team plays because I’m going either way.

 

6 minutes ago, Sioux>Bison said:

People are not skipping football games because they happen to be held in the Alerus Center

These opinions are neat, but it’s not all about you. And your opinions above certainly do not apply to all UND athletics attendees. It’s about the the collective group of supporters, fans, alumni, and donors, and what they all think. It’s not about majority opinion, either, because when it comes to attendance, everyone’s preferences matter.