2019 Non-UND FCS Thread

[JohnboyND7]

On 1/18/2020 at 12:21 PM, Bison06 said:

Europe isn’t viable for most American high schoolers. Additionally, the fact that the European pro leagues have this age thing figured out only further shows how the NCAA and NBA have colluded with this one and done rule to force college on kids.

As far as how these leagues would affect the colleges. Of course I’d much of the top talent played in this proposed league, tv contracts and advertising dollars would go to these leagues too and that would hurt the NCAA.

If you are good enough to be above going to college to play, then Europe is 10000% viable lmao what are you talking about? Is European basketball suddenly super exclusive?

Every sport has established some sort of minor league or second tier version of itself at some point and guess what.... nobody watches it.

 

[Bison06]

1 hour ago, JohnboyND7 said:

If you are good enough to be above going to college to play, then Europe is 10000% viable lmao what are you talking about? Is European basketball suddenly super exclusive?

Every sport has established some sort of minor league or second tier version of itself at some point and guess what.... nobody watches it.

 

Do you think adding 9900% and laughing your a$$ off somehow makes your point more valid?

By saying not viable, I mean players have to move halfway across the world to participate. Truly not an option for a lot of these kids.

A minor league with the top talent that isn’t playing at the pro level has never been tried outside of minor league baseball and guess what, minor league baseball is incredibly popular.

If top NBA and NFL future prospects played in a league and didn’t go to college, those leagues would be very popular because the scouts and analysts would spend their time there and not in college as much.

[Mama Sue]

2 hours ago, Bison06 said:

Do you think adding 9900% and laughing your a$$ off somehow makes your point more valid?

By saying not viable, I mean players have to move halfway across the world to participate. Truly not an option for a lot of these kids.

A minor league with the top talent that isn’t playing at the pro level has never been tried outside of minor league baseball and guess what, minor league baseball is incredibly popular.

If top NBA and NFL future prospects played in a league and didn’t go to college, those leagues would be very popular because the scouts and analysts would spend their time there and not in college as much.

My husband worked for a major, world wide company. There was a man he worked with that sounded like this. The joke was...”Oh just go ask 1-800.” 
So years later I am sewing costumes and he did not like the ascot I sewed. He showed me a google image of the right way to sew an ascot. My first thought was... ask 1-800.

[MIBT]

9 hours ago, Bison06 said:

This isn’t an issue that affects 1% as you say, in fact, I would argue in affects the “little guys” much more than the guys who will/could eventually play professionally. The athlete in partial scholarship at a DII school is affected much more by these rules.

i agree with pretty well everything you’ve said about the challenges that would arise if they changed the rules, we just disagree about how bad things are now it seems.

I agree they are impacted by it as well. But they aren't the ones screaming for this. It's the ones at the large D1 schools that feel their schools are profiting at their expense and they want to make thousands of dollars off their likeness. The D2/D3 guy just wants to get a part-time job at the local grocery store or working at their coach's camp. The start D1 RB wants to get paid $50k to sign autographs or speak at a fundraiser. It would be great if that D2/D3 guy could get that "real" job and I believe they can to some extent. A friend of mine has a son who is a D3 player and he's been officiating HS football, basketball and softball the past 2 years and getting paid to do it.

[MIBT]

7 hours ago, Bison06 said:

Do you think adding 9900% and laughing your a$$ off somehow makes your point more valid?

By saying not viable, I mean players have to move halfway across the world to participate. Truly not an option for a lot of these kids.

A minor league with the top talent that isn’t playing at the pro level has never been tried outside of minor league baseball and guess what, minor league baseball is incredibly popular.

If top NBA and NFL future prospects played in a league and didn’t go to college, those leagues would be very popular because the scouts and analysts would spend their time there and not in college as much.

Minor league baseball is popular locally but nobody outside the local markets is watching the games in person or on TV. The fans of the parent club pay some attention, but it's mostly watching box scores than actually watching the games. I would expect similar attention would be given to minor league basketball or minor league football which is fine. I think the G league could easily function as a minor league for the NBA and the XFL could be a minor league for the NFL. It's important for NCAA athletics to remain scholarship based as much as possible. Let the professional leagues focus on the professional side. Many athletes could still go the collegiate route to the NFL or NBA just like MLB and NHL players do.

[UNDhoops]

10 hours ago, JohnboyND7 said:

If you are good enough to be above going to college to play, then Europe is 10000% viable lmao what are you talking about? Is European basketball suddenly super exclusive?

Every sport has established some sort of minor league or second tier version of itself at some point and guess what.... nobody watches it.

 

a lot of european basketball leagues have a rule limiting the number of americans they can have on the roster so yes it's pretty exclusive

[JohnboyND7]

25 minutes ago, UNDhoops said:

a lot of european basketball leagues have a rule limiting the number of americans they can have on the roster so yes it's pretty exclusive

If you are good enough to skip college to play professionally then there will be a team that wants you. This isn't hard to understand guys...

[Mama Sue]

This isn't hard tounderstand guys...AND GALS!

need to be politically correct now a days....

[geaux_sioux]

7 minutes ago, Mama Sue said:

This isn't hard tounderstand guys...AND GALS!

need to be politically correct now a days....

Guys can be gender neutral if we’re gonna split PC hairs

[Mama Sue]

6 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

Guys can be gender neutral if we’re gonna split PC hairs

The last on-line survey I took asked gender. There were 5 answers and none were male or female. I checked other and wrote in female. I did not even recognize the 5 categories!

Lots of time, effort, and money are being spent on gender issues right now....I withdraw my request!!!

[geaux_sioux]

54 minutes ago, Mama Sue said:

The last on-line survey I took asked gender. There were 5 answers and none were male or female. I checked other and wrote in female. I did not even recognize the 5 categories!

Lots of time, effort, and money are being spent on gender issues right now....I withdraw my request!!!

And none of them at stuff is gonna stick for the simple fact that it makes communicating less efficient. Languages evolve in the other direction. We don’t adopt new things in language to make things more complicated.

[Siouxphan27]

1 hour ago, Mama Sue said:

This isn't hard tounderstand guys...AND GALS!

need to be politically correct now a days....

Read somewhere that we’re supposed to use ‘they’ to describe everyone now, as it would be presumptuous to assume gender. 

 On this holiday, I really enjoy hearing Martin Luther King‘s “They have a dream” speech 

[DeadPoets]

First time poster, but long time lurker.  Thought I would throw in a few anecdotes from a former D2 football player to illustrate just how crazy some of these rules can be.  I was personally involved in the first 2, while the third was a teammate.  These happened 25+ years ago.

1. Teammate and I were asked to give a short speech at end-of-year awards banquet for our former conference.  Driving there, being at the banquet, and driving home took probably took around 4 hours total.  They gave us each $25 as an honorarium.   We had to turn that into the compliance office so they could return it to the conference.  They couldn't even pay us for gas - about 100 miles worth.  Obviously, we would not have been invited to speak if not for our lofty status as D2 football players, but the $25 honorarium certainly wasn't anything more than any other speaker would have received.

2. My mother was running a fundraiser for a group at my former HS.  It was a dunk tank at a local carnival type event.  She needed dunkees.  I volunteered, not as a football player, but as an alumnus and as a son.  I imagine there may have been a handful people who would know I played college football, but that was not going to be advertised.  As far as most people would know, I would just be some Joe Shmoe being dunked.  School said, not so fast - that may violate NCAA policy.

3. Teammate appeared in a small newspaper ad for a local store.  From what I can recall, it made no mention of his status as a D2 football player.  I always assumed he shopped there quite often and that is how he landed the gig.  I can't imagine it paid very much, if anything.  He was suspended for 1 game.

To me, these are much crazier outcomes from NCAA policy than a superstar D1 athlete trying to cash in on his/her image.   I realize there is a slippery slope, but there should be some allowance for athletes to do/earn what any other non-athlete could for the same work.   Why should they be penalized?  I suppose the now allowed stipend on top of the scholarship helps in this manner, but there is still room for improvement. 

One final anecdote concerning NCAA and money.  I did not receive any football scholarship money until my 4th year.  I had been receiving significant academic scholarships.  In fact, my redshirt freshman year, my total academic scholarships (some one-time scholarships, some renewable) were greater than tuition + room/board.  Yeah for me.  My 4th year, coach said I would get X amount of $ from a partial football scholarship.  Later this was reduced when compliance realized, that, when combined with my academic scholarship, I would have greater than a full-ride.  My academic scholarship was about 80% of a full-ride.   I know, I know, poor me with my full-ride scholarship, but why couldn't I fully benefit from what I earned - especially considering the academic side was so much bigger than the football side.  

[geaux_sioux]

36 minutes ago, DeadPoets said:

First time poster, but long time lurker.  Thought I would throw in a few anecdotes from a former D2 football player to illustrate just how crazy some of these rules can be.  I was personally involved in the first 2, while the third was a teammate.  These happened 25+ years ago.

1. Teammate and I were asked to give a short speech at end-of-year awards banquet for our former conference.  Driving there, being at the banquet, and driving home took probably took around 4 hours total.  They gave us each $25 as an honorarium.   We had to turn that into the compliance office so they could return it to the conference.  They couldn't even pay us for gas - about 100 miles worth.  Obviously, we would not have been invited to speak if not for our lofty status as D2 football players, but the $25 honorarium certainly wasn't anything more than any other speaker would have received.

2. My mother was running a fundraiser for a group at my former HS.  It was a dunk tank at a local carnival type event.  She needed dunkees.  I volunteered, not as a football player, but as an alumnus and as a son.  I imagine there may have been a handful people who would know I played college football, but that was not going to be advertised.  As far as most people would know, I would just be some Joe Shmoe being dunked.  School said, not so fast - that may violate NCAA policy.

3. Teammate appeared in a small newspaper ad for a local store.  From what I can recall, it made no mention of his status as a D2 football player.  I always assumed he shopped there quite often and that is how he landed the gig.  I can't imagine it paid very much, if anything.  He was suspended for 1 game.

To me, these are much crazier outcomes from NCAA policy than a superstar D1 athlete trying to cash in on his/her image.   I realize there is a slippery slope, but there should be some allowance for athletes to do/earn what any other non-athlete could for the same work.   Why should they be penalized?  I suppose the now allowed stipend on top of the scholarship helps in this manner, but there is still room for improvement. 

One final anecdote concerning NCAA and money.  I did not receive any football scholarship money until my 4th year.  I had been receiving significant academic scholarships.  In fact, my redshirt freshman year, my total academic scholarships (some one-time scholarships, some renewable) were greater than tuition + room/board.  Yeah for me.  My 4th year, coach said I would get X amount of $ from a partial football scholarship.  Later this was reduced when compliance realized, that, when combined with my academic scholarship, I would have greater than a full-ride.  My academic scholarship was about 80% of a full-ride.   I know, I know, poor me with my full-ride scholarship, but why couldn't I fully benefit from what I earned - especially considering the academic side was so much bigger than the football side.  

It’s estimated that Johnny Football missed out on upwards of $10 million that he could have made off of his likeness while in college. Instead the school and NCAA are the only ones pulling in mountains of cash from high level guys like this. 

[Siouxphan27]

1 hour ago, DeadPoets said:

First time poster, but long time lurker.  Thought I would throw in a few anecdotes from a former D2 football player to illustrate just how crazy some of these rules can be.  I was personally involved in the first 2, while the third was a teammate.  These happened 25+ years ago.

1. Teammate and I were asked to give a short speech at end-of-year awards banquet for our former conference.  Driving there, being at the banquet, and driving home took probably took around 4 hours total.  They gave us each $25 as an honorarium.   We had to turn that into the compliance office so they could return it to the conference.  They couldn't even pay us for gas - about 100 miles worth.  Obviously, we would not have been invited to speak if not for our lofty status as D2 football players, but the $25 honorarium certainly wasn't anything more than any other speaker would have received.

2. My mother was running a fundraiser for a group at my former HS.  It was a dunk tank at a local carnival type event.  She needed dunkees.  I volunteered, not as a football player, but as an alumnus and as a son.  I imagine there may have been a handful people who would know I played college football, but that was not going to be advertised.  As far as most people would know, I would just be some Joe Shmoe being dunked.  School said, not so fast - that may violate NCAA policy.

3. Teammate appeared in a small newspaper ad for a local store.  From what I can recall, it made no mention of his status as a D2 football player.  I always assumed he shopped there quite often and that is how he landed the gig.  I can't imagine it paid very much, if anything.  He was suspended for 1 game.

To me, these are much crazier outcomes from NCAA policy than a superstar D1 athlete trying to cash in on his/her image.   I realize there is a slippery slope, but there should be some allowance for athletes to do/earn what any other non-athlete could for the same work.   Why should they be penalized?  I suppose the now allowed stipend on top of the scholarship helps in this manner, but there is still room for improvement. 

One final anecdote concerning NCAA and money.  I did not receive any football scholarship money until my 4th year.  I had been receiving significant academic scholarships.  In fact, my redshirt freshman year, my total academic scholarships (some one-time scholarships, some renewable) were greater than tuition + room/board.  Yeah for me.  My 4th year, coach said I would get X amount of $ from a partial football scholarship.  Later this was reduced when compliance realized, that, when combined with my academic scholarship, I would have greater than a full-ride.  My academic scholarship was about 80% of a full-ride.   I know, I know, poor me with my full-ride scholarship, but why couldn't I fully benefit from what I earned - especially considering the academic side was so much bigger than the football side.  

Thanks for posting and sharing your thoughts and experiences.   Those are some great examples to consider regarding this issue.  Welcome to non-lurker status!  

[UNDhoops]

16 hours ago, JohnboyND7 said:

If you are good enough to skip college to play professionally then there will be a team that wants you. This isn't hard to understand guys...

Brandon Jennings was the 10th pick in the draft and didnt play a ton in Europe. A lot of leagues will take veteran guys who have played in europe for years already because they know the leagues//teams/coaches, etc. and because they dont develop guys like the NBA does, so maybe it is hard to understand for some people

[iramurphy]

10 hours ago, geaux_sioux said:

It’s estimated that Johnny Football missed out on upwards of $10 million that he could have made off of his likeness while in college. Instead the school and NCAA are the only ones pulling in mountains of cash from high level guys like this. 

Manziel redshirted in 2011 but made the travel squad. He had 2 outstanding years in 2012 and 2013 including winning the Heisman and finishing runner up the next year. A full ride for an instate kid at Texas A&M is $28,000 per year. In addition he flew all over the country for 3 years. He had free hotel and free meals. Assume 6 away games per year. At the end of his RFr and Soph years he also had free trips and stays in NY. He also had trips with hotels and meals for bowl games. Clothing/shoes etc also add up. If another student does same travel/meals/stay a conservative guess would be $1000 per away game for flight/hotel/meals. I don’t know the exact number but you get the picture. In addition to a free education, he gets many other perks. He plays a game for $40,000 or more per year for 3 years. The redshirt year his isn’t yet very marketable. How much would his endorsements be worth?  Could be millions but others who have entry level jobs don’t usually get to cash in on their abilities right away. Mandrill and others need the colleges and the resources of those schools including the free marketing provided by the SID’s to capitalize on their success to say nothing of the unheralded teammates who won’t get endorsements but are an important part of the success of the stars. 

[iramurphy]

11 hours ago, DeadPoets said:

First time poster, but long time lurker.  Thought I would throw in a few anecdotes from a former D2 football player to illustrate just how crazy some of these rules can be.  I was personally involved in the first 2, while the third was a teammate.  These happened 25+ years ago.

1. Teammate and I were asked to give a short speech at end-of-year awards banquet for our former conference.  Driving there, being at the banquet, and driving home took probably took around 4 hours total.  They gave us each $25 as an honorarium.   We had to turn that into the compliance office so they could return it to the conference.  They couldn't even pay us for gas - about 100 miles worth.  Obviously, we would not have been invited to speak if not for our lofty status as D2 football players, but the $25 honorarium certainly wasn't anything more than any other speaker would have received.

2. My mother was running a fundraiser for a group at my former HS.  It was a dunk tank at a local carnival type event.  She needed dunkees.  I volunteered, not as a football player, but as an alumnus and as a son.  I imagine there may have been a handful people who would know I played college football, but that was not going to be advertised.  As far as most people would know, I would just be some Joe Shmoe being dunked.  School said, not so fast - that may violate NCAA policy.

3. Teammate appeared in a small newspaper ad for a local store.  From what I can recall, it made no mention of his status as a D2 football player.  I always assumed he shopped there quite often and that is how he landed the gig.  I can't imagine it paid very much, if anything.  He was suspended for 1 game.

To me, these are much crazier outcomes from NCAA policy than a superstar D1 athlete trying to cash in on his/her image.   I realize there is a slippery slope, but there should be some allowance for athletes to do/earn what any other non-athlete could for the same work.   Why should they be penalized?  I suppose the now allowed stipend on top of the scholarship helps in this manner, but there is still room for improvement. 

One final anecdote concerning NCAA and money.  I did not receive any football scholarship money until my 4th year.  I had been receiving significant academic scholarships.  In fact, my redshirt freshman year, my total academic scholarships (some one-time scholarships, some renewable) were greater than tuition + room/board.  Yeah for me.  My 4th year, coach said I would get X amount of $ from a partial football scholarship.  Later this was reduced when compliance realized, that, when combined with my academic scholarship, I would have greater than a full-ride.  My academic scholarship was about 80% of a full-ride.   I know, I know, poor me with my full-ride scholarship, but why couldn't I fully benefit from what I earned - especially considering the academic side was so much bigger than the football side.  

#1 I believe you could have been reimbursed for your expenses.  Athletes who are flown to Conference Media Days don’t have to pay their own expenses. Usually the Conference picks up tab for expenses but no honorarium. 
#2. You could have done the “dunk tank” as long as you didn’t take money or compensation. 
#3. I believe is a violation. 

Your points are well taken. We used to have to fill out a questionnaire listing all scholarship monies (regardless of where it came from) and any money we made from summer jobs or part-time jobs. The total of those funds was limited to not a lot more than the total of tuition/books/room/board/fees and estimated expenses. I believe the NCAA still requires that info. It’s complicated, but even academic scholarships for athletes are often counted against the schools total scholarship allotment. 
Many athletes used to work in the summer or part time during the school year for boosters. Before that was changed, that’s how the big time programs paid athletes. That is also why the NCAA changed the rules which hurt the players who are on partial scholarships and who need to work. 

[geaux_sioux]

21 minutes ago, iramurphy said:

Manziel redshirted in 2011 but made the travel squad. He had 2 outstanding years in 2012 and 2013 including winning the Heisman and finishing runner up the next year. A full ride for an instate kid at Texas A&M is $28,000 per year. In addition he flew all over the country for 3 years. He had free hotel and free meals. Assume 6 away games per year. At the end of his RFr and Soph years he also had free trips and stays in NY. He also had trips with hotels and meals for bowl games. Clothing/shoes etc also add up. If another student does same travel/meals/stay a conservative guess would be $1000 per away game for flight/hotel/meals. I don’t know the exact number but you get the picture. In addition to a free education, he gets many other perks. He plays a game for $40,000 or more per year for 3 years. The redshirt year his isn’t yet very marketable. How much would his endorsements be worth?  Could be millions but others who have entry level jobs don’t usually get to cash in on their abilities right away. Mandrill and others need the colleges and the resources of those schools including the free marketing provided by the SID’s to capitalize on their success to say nothing of the unheralded teammates who won’t get endorsements but are an important part of the success of the stars. 

Nobody shows up to watch “others who have entry level jobs”

[iramurphy]

Just now, geaux_sioux said:

Nobody shows up to watch “others who have entry level jobs”

No, but entry level employees earn the employers money don’t they?  Most aren’t as valuable as experienced employees but sometimes you get one who is smarter and outworks the others and interacts with  your customers in a way that is noticeable early on. They are money in the bank. They may move up the pay scale quickly or be compensated with bonuses but many  don’t earn what they are worth right away. I know it’s not exactly apples to apples but I think too many minimize the compensation these athletes already receive at the major programs. Same happens in others jobs, granted usually on a smaller $ scale. 

[geaux_sioux]

10 minutes ago, iramurphy said:

No, but entry level employees earn the employers money don’t they?  Most aren’t as valuable as experienced employees but sometimes you get one who is smarter and outworks the others and interacts with  your customers in a way that is noticeable early on. They are money in the bank. They may move up the pay scale quickly or be compensated with bonuses but many  don’t earn what they are worth right away. I know it’s not exactly apples to apples but I think too many minimize the compensation these athletes already receive at the major programs. Same happens in others jobs, granted usually on a smaller $ scale. 

They can also negotiate for their contract. Apples and kumquats my friend. 

[iramurphy]

4 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

They can also negotiate for their contract. Apples and kumquats my friend. 

Depends. I said it wasn’t apples to apples. I hadn’t thought of kumquats. Good one. 

[bison73]

52 minutes ago, iramurphy said:

Manziel redshirted in 2011 but made the travel squad. He had 2 outstanding years in 2012 and 2013 including winning the Heisman and finishing runner up the next year. A full ride for an instate kid at Texas A&M is $28,000 per year. In addition he flew all over the country for 3 years. He had free hotel and free meals. Assume 6 away games per year. At the end of his RFr and Soph years he also had free trips and stays in NY. He also had trips with hotels and meals for bowl games. Clothing/shoes etc also add up. If another student does same travel/meals/stay a conservative guess would be $1000 per away game for flight/hotel/meals. I don’t know the exact number but you get the picture. In addition to a free education, he gets many other perks. He plays a game for $40,000 or more per year for 3 years. The redshirt year his isn’t yet very marketable. How much would his endorsements be worth?  Could be millions but others who have entry level jobs don’t usually get to cash in on their abilities right away. Mandrill and others need the colleges and the resources of those schools including the free marketing provided by the SID’s to capitalize on their success to say nothing of the unheralded teammates who won’t get endorsements but are an important part of the success of the stars. 

Have you ever figured out the number of hours you put in training,  practice, film study, meetings, travel time, game time, etc etc etc????Away games youre on the clock 24/7. If youre being paid to play football youre also being paid to go to class and study. How many hours a week does that entail? In fact you arent making minimum wage. 

[Mama Sue]

8 hours ago, bison73 said:

Have you ever figured out the number of hours you put in training,  practice, film study, meetings, travel time, game time, etc etc etc????Away games youre on the clock 24/7. If youre being paid to play football youre also being paid to go to class and study. How many hours a week does that entail? In fact you arent making minimum wage. 

Jeopardy Question: what is pro sports?

Seriously? You forgot going to the bathroom....Do you want to track hours, get paid, and submit a bill for TP too?

i rest my case about unknown issues and abuses.... this statement leaves the door wide open!

[geaux_sioux]

9 hours ago, bison73 said:

Have you ever figured out the number of hours you put in training,  practice, film study, meetings, travel time, game time, etc etc etc????Away games youre on the clock 24/7. If youre being paid to play football youre also being paid to go to class and study. How many hours a week does that entail? In fact you arent making minimum wage. 

Off season is limited to 8 hrs a week of contact with coaches I believe.