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Standing Rock Protests

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29 minutes ago, TBR said:

The pore space of sand is typically about 25%, while the pore space in clay is about 40%, which might seems counterintuitive. It is the degree of interconnectedness of the pore spaces that determines the material's transmissivity, and sand is more transmissive than clay.  Below the river 90 feet you will find sand. Below that sand in the area we are talking about you will get into silty, clayey formations like the Hell Creek Formation. Below the river you have essentially 100% saturation so the oil, being lighter than and immiscible with water, moves upward. Now beneath a reservoir groundwater movement is downward, but the density gradient between the oil and the water will trump the hydraulic gradient.

And yes, I am a hydrogeologist.

The pipeline will not leak so this conversation is a non issue. The pipe, welds, coating are all inspected before installing it. Cathodic protection will protect the pipe from corroding. Inline inspections will catch any issue before it leaks.

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There is obviously a more fundamental issue than cost/benefit tradeoff of pipelines. That issue is: do we as a society continue to exploit petroleum resources. I think the answer is yes. We are unfortunately nowhere near capable of supplying all our energy needs with so called green energy sources, and yes, I accept that the earth is warming and that it is impossible to absolve humanity of any and all culpability for said warming. Either use the available resources or switch all the lights off, and I don't know anyone willing to go the later route. So if you are to exploit the available resources, then they must be transported. Pick your poison be it barges, pipelines, rail, whatever. It is also worth noting that certain environmental groups, while opposing offshore drilling, have blessed utilization of Bakken crude.

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6 minutes ago, Sioux>Bison said:

The pipeline will not leak so this conversation is a non issue. The pipe, welds, coating are all inspected before installing it. Cathodic protection will protect the pipe from corroding. Inline inspections will catch any issue before it leaks.

Ah, I am not so sure about that...

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2 hours ago, fight on sioux said:

There is no "race card" being played. If you are that ignorant to the reasons and causes for the social problems Native Americans face today, and find it right to degrade them by labeling all of them alcoholics, then that is your problem. I just have more respect for the struggles Native Americans face today and have faced in the past to make snide remarks like this. I'm not saying all of them are doing the right thing during this protest, but I don't make generalized comments that put a negative label on an entire culture. That's all I have to say about this... 

 

Well said.

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32 minutes ago, TBR said:

Ah, I am not so sure about that...

How am I wrong then? Don't say I'm wrong without telling me why. I would like to debate the facts if possible....

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1 hour ago, TBR said:

The pore space of sand is typically about 25%, while the pore space in clay is about 40%, which might seems counterintuitive. It is the degree of interconnectedness of the pore spaces that determines the material's transmissivity, and sand is more transmissive than clay.  Below the river 90 feet you will find sand. Below that sand in the area we are talking about you will get into silty, clayey formations like the Hell Creek Formation. Below the river you have essentially 100% saturation so the oil, being lighter than and immiscible with water, moves upward. Now beneath a reservoir groundwater movement is downward, but the density gradient between the oil and the water will trump the hydraulic gradient.

And yes, I am a hydrogeologist.

Water boils 2-3 miles under the surface? Just have to dig that far down. ;)

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9 minutes ago, Sioux>Bison said:

How am I wrong then? Don't say I'm wrong without telling me why. I would like to debate the facts if possible....

You might be right, but never is a hell of a long time and history is replete with examples of engineering marvels that failed. The Titanic is an example that comes to mind. There are also plenty of examples of pipeline failures.

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3 minutes ago, TBR said:

You might be right, but never is a hell of a long time and history is replete with examples of engineering marvels that failed. The Titanic is an example that comes to mind. There are also plenty of examples of pipeline failures.

You are completely right about past failures. The technology back in the day is no where near where today's is. This is why you are seeing so many new pipelines being installed so that companies don't have to deal with all the issues on the old ones.

this pipeline will have everything it needs to last 200 years with no issues

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24 minutes ago, Sioux>Bison said:
7 minutes ago, Sioux>Bison said:

You are completely right about past failures. The technology back in the day is no where near where today's is. This is why you are seeing so many new pipelines being installed so that companies don't have to deal with all the issues on the old ones.

this pipeline will have everything it needs to last 200 years with no issues

Recently installed pipelines have already leaked.

Manufacturing error of the pipline and or human errors on welds.

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It's actually a double pipe (pipe within a pipe) with sensors in between and emergency shut off valves on both sides of the river.  100 feet below the riverbed, I think it's pretty safe to say this isn't going to be the Exxon Valdez, guys.  Also people don't realize how many pipes are already under all our rivers. They always make it sound like this is the first time anyone's ever done anything so horrendous.

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Hockeygirl97 said:

It's actually a double pipe (pipe within a pipe) with sensors in between and emergency shut off valves on both sides of the river.  100 feet below the riverbed, I think it's pretty safe to say this isn't going to be the Exxon Valdez, guys.  Also people don't realize how many pipes are already under all our rivers. They always make it sound like this is the first time anyone's ever done anything so horrendous.

 

 

 

agree

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42 minutes ago, Cratter said:

Recently installed pipelines have already leaked.

Manufacturing error of the pipline and or human errors on welds.

Which ones? I'm sure it's only been one or two over the last 20 years on newer pipelines. These exceptions should not represent all pipelines.

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On 10/27/2016 at 6:25 PM, bison73 said:
1 minute ago, Sioux>Bison said:

Which ones? I'm sure it's only been one or two over the last 20 years on newer pipelines. These exceptions should not represent all pipelines.

20 over the last 1 or 2 years would be closer

 

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5 hours ago, Cratter said:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-pipeline-sunoco-logistics-idUSKCN11L2CM

Pipe was only a year old.

This is just one. There's many.

 

Non union non qualified welders. What do you expect when you don't follow the law? DAPL is hiring the best people in the Industry. You get what you pay for. The regulations are there for a reason. If followed there will be no deficiencies.

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The Keystone, a newer pipeline, leaked 12 times in its first year of operation....the next year it spilt 21,000 gallons of oil in North Dakota alone.

It leaked 16,800 gallons of oil in South Dakota this year.

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1 hour ago, Sioux>Bison said:

Non union non qualified welders. What do you expect when you don't follow the law? DAPL is hiring the best people in the Industry. You get what you pay for. 

The company that owns DAPL also own the company you just described.

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7 hours ago, Cratter said:

The Keystone, a newer pipeline, leaked 12 times in its first year of operation....the next year it spilt 21,000 gallons of oil in North Dakota alone.

It leaked 16,800 gallons of oil in South Dakota this year.

Many of those releases were very small and we're contained in the facility. the one in SD was unfortunate because that defective weld should have been caught by the inspection.

Sunoco owns just a part of DAPL. It is being built with the best workers money can buy. This is why public service commissions need to ensure that companies use the best worker before approving the pipeline. 

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Who one here actually has connections to this protest?  Do you live in Morton County?  Do you have friends who have been threatened by these rioters?  I am just trying to get a sense of who is actually talking here.

  As many of you know, I actually live in Mandan.  I have taken detours to get to work because of this protest that was taken over by the eco terrorists from everywhere but North Dakota.  I live less than 300 feet from a train yard here in Mandan that the oil trains pass through every day.  My family has the pipeline going through their land and didn't blink twice about signing to have it go through.  Why?  Because the pipeline that feeds the Tesoro refinery was built on this exact land back in the 70's.  There has never been a leak in all the years it has been there.  Pipeline is the safest way to get ND oil to market,  It means that we as North Dakota residents will see more money per barrel than we do now.  Plus it means that I will have fewer oil train cars passing my house. 

On a separate note, 2 weeks ago I was spit on by a Native American because I was wearing my UND Sioux sweatshirt.  He said to me, you know nothing about being Sioux, then spit on me.   He was right, I do know nothing about being a Native American, but I didn't do anything to them and neither did my family.  This whole protest is going to affect native relations in this part of ND for years to come.   So back to my original question, who on here actually has connections to this protest?

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22 hours ago, Oxbow6 said:

One of the ladies I work with just said her father can't get to his farm due to the road blocks and a farm neighbor's dog was shot dead yesterday by someone promoting peace and prayer.

 

 

1 hour ago, ringneck28 said:

Who one here actually has connections to this protest?  Do you live in Morton County?  Do you have friends who have been threatened by these rioters?  I am just trying to get a sense of who is actually talking here.

  As many of you know, I actually live in Mandan.  I have taken detours to get to work because of this protest that was taken over by the eco terrorists from everywhere but North Dakota.  I live less than 300 feet from a train yard here in Mandan that the oil trains pass through every day.  My family has the pipeline going through their land and didn't blink twice about signing to have it go through.  Why?  Because the pipeline that feeds the Tesoro refinery was built on this exact land back in the 70's.  There has never been a leak in all the years it has been there.  Pipeline is the safest way to get ND oil to market,  It means that we as North Dakota residents will see more money per barrel than we do now.  Plus it means that I will have fewer oil train cars passing my house. 

On a separate note, 2 weeks ago I was spit on by a Native American because I was wearing my UND Sioux sweatshirt.  He said to me, you know nothing about being Sioux, then spit on me.   He was right, I do know nothing about being a Native American, but I didn't do anything to them and neither did my family.  This whole protest is going to affect native relations in this part of ND for years to come.   So back to my original question, who on here actually has connections to this protest?

To your last paragraph pretty pathetic scenario over a sweatshirt but was this NA holding a big Dasani bottle? 

#waterislife

 

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Pipelines leak, and they will leak in the future. But usually the most significant aspect of the reporting of a small leak is that there is an indication that the leak detection system is working. This is not a black and white issue. I would actually prefer they be routed above ground over rivers and reservoirs so they could be more readily inspected visually.

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