Drop Fighting Hawks name

[Fetch]

That would be even worse if they (ncaa) didn't require 2 

Then he is totally incompetent 

[dakotadan]

35 minutes ago, Fetch said:

letting the ncaa dictate the need for approval of 2 Tribes when Florida only had to get one - We got the one nearest to us - while Standing Rock was controlled by hostile leaders & most of the tribe is in SD

You are twisting the facts/timeline around a bit. UND had every opportunity to show the NCAA that they had approval from a local tribe and been taken off of the hostile and abusive list at the same time as Florida State (not Florida). But at that point we did NOT have the support of ANY tribes. That is the reason that the lawsuit happened in the first place. We had the exact same requirements and opportunity to get rid of sanctions as FSU. Had Spirit Lake stepped up and stated their support to begin with we never would have ended up in court. 

[dakotadan]

4 minutes ago, Fetch said:

That would be even worse if they (ncaa) didn't require 2 

Then he is totally incompetent 

Nice shot in the dark while trying to take another potshot at Wayne. I'll just say that it was way more than the two ND Sioux tribes that they originally were going to require UND to get approval from. 

[Fetch]

So u were there ? 

So why didn't we appeal after SL did approve ?

[82SiouxGuy]

36 minutes ago, Fetch said:

Umm the surrender agreement & letting the ncaa dictate the need for approval of 2 Tribes when Florida only had to get one - We got the one nearest to us - while Standing Rock was controlled by hostile leaders & most of the tribe is in SD 

?

A little review of the lawsuit issue. As has been discussed, the NCAA is a private, membership organization. They can make any rules that they want as long as they don't break existing laws. Banning Native American nicknames did not break any existing laws.

The NCAA ban on nicknames came in August 2005. They made a quick change within a couple of weeks to allow schools to keep their nicknames if they got current approval from a single local tribe. That appeal had to be approved by the middle of 2007. All schools with Native American nicknames that didn't have local tribe approval either needed to change their name or go on the ban list by that time. None of the local tribes gave UND approval at the time. Spirit Lake had given UND approval in 2000, but would not recognize their own policy. Tribal leadership just had to send a letter to the NCAA stating that UND still had approval from the tribe, but refused to send a letter. UND would have been put on the ban list because of that. The other option for the school was to drop the nickname.

Instead, UND sued over the policy. The biggest issue that UND could find to sue over was the fact that the NCAA Executive Committee made the Native American policy and the NCAA bylaws said that a policy like that needed to be passed by the membership. After UND sued, the NCAA membership changed their policy to allow the Executive Committee to make policies like the Native American nickname ban. And the Committee renewed that ban after the membership gave them the power. So even if UND won the lawsuit because the NCAA didn't follow policy, the NCAA had covered their tracks legally to eliminate the nickname. At best a win would have gained UND a few months of using the nickname.

The Settlement Agreement boiled down to a simple trade. UND had to get 2 tribes to approve the name, and in return they got an extra 3 1/2 years to get that approval. Spirit Lake didn't give their local tribe approval until April 2009, 1 1/2 years after the Settlement Agreement and almost 2 years after the original deadline to get approval. That approval would not have counted without the lawsuit. As we all know, Standing Rock never gave approval. The Standing Rock Tribal Council had issued requests to eliminate the nickname starting in 1992, so most knowledgeable people knew from the start that getting approval from both tribes was going to be close to impossible. Having to get approval from both tribes was a difficult task, but it was probably the only thing that the NCAA would accept to allow the extra time. Otherwise they could very well have just allowed the case to go to court because they already had all of their bases covered. UND was in a lose-lose position, the Settlement Agreement was the only Hail Mary pass attempt that was available at the time. Wayne Stenehjem didn't have many cards left to play at that point. There are probably a lot of good reasons not to vote for Stenehjem, but the nickname issue isn't even on the list.

[82SiouxGuy]

22 minutes ago, Fetch said:

So u were there ? 

So why didn't we appeal after SL did approve ?

Appeal what? The Spirit Lake approval was almost 2 years after the original deadline to get local tribe approval, so the NCAA would not have had to follow it. It would have been meaningless without the Settlement Agreement. And the Spirit Lake approval was almost 1 1/2 years after the Settlement Agreement that both the State of North Dakota, on behalf of UND, and the NCAA signed. That agreement required approval by 2 tribes and Spirit Lake was 1/2 of that.

[dakotadan]

I have talked directly with people who were involved in the negotiation. The final terms of the settlement were MUCH more favorable to UND than what the NCAA originally sat down at the table with. It's not like the NCAA was going out of its way to do any favors for UND. So for anyone to try say that Wayne Stenehjem should hold the most blame for the loss of the Sioux nickname is just flat out being naive. 

Like I said before, there is plenty of blame to go around. But Wayne is not at the top of the list. 

[petey23]

2 hours ago, Fetch said:

Well said & I agree & it has nothing to do with party politics 

I agree and it has a little to do with party politics. Hopefully a miracle happens and he doesn't get the nod at the Republican convention as he is too far left.....if he does I guess I could just not vote for Governor this time. Had to leave the US Senate race open in the last general(Berg v Heidi).

[Fetch]

I will always feel we did not use our brightest or best at that time & support was disappointing & He was a big part of it all. But ok their is a lot of disappointment to be shared 

[dagies]

18 hours ago, dlsiouxfan said:

This whole thing is beginning to have me question the quality of my UND education.  We have fanbase that is so upset about a nickname they had a fairly strong voice in choosing that they are willing to boo their own teams.  Meanwhile, these exact same people will turn out in November to elect the guy with the most responsibility for the loss of the old nickname (Wayne Stenehjem) the next governor of ND.  It doesn't really get any more idiotic than that.

No, they are booing a nickname, not the team.   that's pretty clear

[sprig]

10 minutes ago, dagies said:

No, they are booing a nickname, not the team.   that's pretty clear

Absolutely,  and players have said they enjoy it.  It's not specifically booing Hawks, but rather a name that's not Sioux

[darell1976]

1 hour ago, sprig said:

Absolutely,  and players have said they enjoy it.  It's not specifically booing Hawks, but rather a name that's not Sioux

How long is that going to last? And when new players say they hate the booing, will it stop? Or will this booing continue into the 22nd century? I think its childish and shows bad taste, especially if there is no booing at the Alerus and Betty.

[sprig]

4 minutes ago, darell1976 said:

How long is that going to last? And when new players say they hate the booing, will it stop? Or will this booing continue into the 22nd century? I think its childish and shows bad taste, especially if there is no booing at the Alerus and Betty.

Patience, grasshopper

[darell1976]

14 minutes ago, sprig said:

Patience, grasshopper

I know, it will stop when people realize the name is going nowhere and it starts to take off when more and more people are sporting Fighting Hawks gear complete with a new logo.

[Benny Baker]

16 hours ago, dakotadan said:

You are twisting the facts/timeline around a bit. UND had every opportunity to show the NCAA that they had approval from a local tribe and been taken off of the hostile and abusive list at the same time as Florida State (not Florida). But at that point we did NOT have the support of ANY tribes. That is the reason that the lawsuit happened in the first place. We had the exact same requirements and opportunity to get rid of sanctions as FSU. Had Spirit Lake stepped up and stated their support to begin with we never would have ended up in court. 

I think it's also important to point out that approval from a namesake tribe was a primary, but not exclusive, consideration for being taken off the hostile and abusive ban list.  So I think the frustration for some people with Stenehjem is a perception of poor negotiating skills in light of the state's agreement to obtain namesake approval of not one, but two tribes, when Utah, Central Michigan, and Florida State only had the approval of one, local tribe.

 

[Benny Baker]

15 hours ago, dakotadan said:

I have talked directly with people who were involved in the negotiation. The final terms of the settlement were MUCH more favorable to UND than what the NCAA originally sat down at the table with. It's not like the NCAA was going out of its way to do any favors for UND. So for anyone to try say that Wayne Stenehjem should hold the most blame for the loss of the Sioux nickname is just flat out being naive. 

Like I said before, there is plenty of blame to go around. But Wayne is not at the top of the list. 

What terms did the NCAA originally submit to UND?

[ArchyAlum11]

12 minutes ago, darell1976 said:

I know, it will stop when people realize the name is going nowhere and it starts to take off when more and more people are sporting Fighting Hawks gear complete with a new logo.

Or when UND administration quite trying to force the new branding, and just does what the U of M, Wisconsin, Michigan and countless other universities have done, a monogram logo, the interlocking ND will likely still be the primary logo after a few years. I think people have a bit of skewed perspective on how important logos and nicknames in modern college sports because of how popular the Fighting Sioux Nickname was and still is, most other universities don't have the same love affair with their logo and nickname. Bucky isn't on Wisconsin hockey Jersey, Billzard the Husky isn't on Saint Cloud State's uniforms, Goldy the goofer isn't adorning the U's football football helmets. Maybe that's just the stylistic trend in college sports right now but it seems like its been this way for a long time. So the name may stay but that doesn't mean that it will always be the primary branding the university uses. Right now they are trying really hard to try and make people love a bland brand name, again it will be impossible to say until the new logo is released to the public, but does anyone really think they are going to do anything creative with it?

[ArchyAlum11]

13 minutes ago, Benny Baker said:

I think it's also important to point out that approval from a namesake tribe was a primary, but not exclusive, consideration for being taken off the hostile and abusive ban list.  So I think the frustration for some people with Stenehjem is a perception of poor negotiating skills in light of the state's agreement to obtain namesake approval of not one, but two tribes, when Utah, Central Michigan, and Florida State only had the approval of one, local tribe.

 

The tough part for UND is that even if you accept that they needed both namesake tribes in the state to approve, Standing Rock is only partly in North Dakota, the bulk of the reservation is in South Dakota. So would they only need the North Dakota Section to approve? The NCAA really needed to just make a rule that either Native nicknames were okay or not okay. Of course if they had done that then Utah, Illinois and Florida State would have sued the crap out of them.

[darell1976]

8 minutes ago, ArchyAlum11 said:

Or when UND administration quite trying to force the new branding, and just does what the U of M, Wisconsin, Michigan and countless other universities have done, a monogram logo, the interlocking ND will likely still be the primary logo after a few years. I think people have a bit of skewed perspective on how important logos and nicknames in modern college sports because of how popular the Fighting Sioux Nickname was and still is, most other universities don't have the same love affair with their logo and nickname. Bucky isn't on Wisconsin hockey Jersey, Billzard the Husky isn't on Saint Cloud State's uniforms, Goldy the goofer isn't adorning the U's football football helmets. Maybe that's just the stylistic trend in college sports right now but it seems like its been this way for a long time. So the name may stay but that doesn't mean that it will always be the primary branding the university uses. Right now they are trying really hard to try and make people love a bland brand name, again it will be impossible to say until the new logo is released to the public, but does anyone really think they are going to do anything creative with it?

The Fighting Sioux logo was never on UND football helmets. The university is not going to spent a huge amount of money on a logo and not use it. If everyone needs an example of replacing a long standing nickname look at Grand Forks Central. How the Knights name and logo are on gear, and uniforms. Kinda hard to find a Redskins in the crowd.

[jdub27]

14 minutes ago, ArchyAlum11 said:

Or when UND administration quite trying to force the new branding, and just does what the U of M, Wisconsin, Michigan and countless other universities have done, a monogram logo, the interlocking ND will likely still be the primary logo after a few years.

It would be a more apt comparison if you'd actually use school's that are on UND's level, not Universities with a true, recognizable national brand. On top of that, those schools also don't have a logo that looks almost identical to a school that has a following many, many multiples larger and is much more recognizable than them. The interlocking ND hasn't been unique since Notre Dame started using it and outside of North Dakota and portions of Minnesota and maybe South Dakota, will almost always be confused with most assuming it is Notre Dame. I've been told directly by people in the athletic department it happens constantly when the teams are traveling. That is why a unique logo is important.

[ArchyAlum11]

5 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

It would be a more apt comparison if you'd actually use school's that are on UND's level, not Universities with a true, recognizable national brand. On top of that, those schools also don't have a logo that looks almost identical to a school that has a following many, many multiples larger and is much more recognizable than them. The interlocking ND hasn't been unique since Notre Dame started using it and outside of North Dakota and portions of Minnesota and maybe South Dakota, will almost always be confused with most assuming it is Notre Dame. I've been told directly by people in the athletic department it happens constantly when the teams are traveling. That is why a unique logo is important.

And you think having a generic bird will solve this problem. Saint Cloud already "confused" us with Miami.

[darell1976]

1 minute ago, jdub27 said:

It would be a more apt comparison if you'd actually use school's that are on UND's level, not Universities with a true, recognizable national brand. On top of that, those schools also don't have a logo that looks almost identical to a school that has a following many, many multiples larger and is much more recognizable than them. The interlocking ND hasn't been unique since Notre Dame started using it.

I know there are some at Marquette and Dartmouth that don't like their nickname change but they are in the big minority, UND fans that boo at hockey games will be drowned out by cheers of Go Hawks. It will just take a little time.

[darell1976]

Just now, ArchyAlum11 said:

And you think having a generic bird will solve this problem. Saint Cloud already "confused" us with Miami.

They did that on purpose. Our colors are not Red. If they think they were they must have been colorblind for the last 30+ years of hockey competition.

[Let'sGoHawks!]

On 1/5/2016 at 3:37 PM, ArchyAlum11 said:

How about "your generic and politically correct University of North Dakota Fighting Hawks" it would be an accurate statement on the new nickname "choice".

So what!?  That is the situation. Live with it, deal with it, move on.

[jdub27]

9 minutes ago, ArchyAlum11 said:

And you think having a generic bird will solve this problem. Saint Cloud already "confused" us with Miami.

Who is advocating for a generic bird? That seems to be quite different than what I said which was that a unique logo is important. 

How many media outlets, people and schools constantly confuse UND and NDSU, both when UND was the Fighting Sioux and didn't have a nickname? On top of that, not sure I'd use anything that happens at St. Clown as a baseline for making a point.