UND Football Expectations

[BobIwabuchiFan]

Here's the problem: there are really only two NCAA sports that matter in terms of fan popularity and national media exposure -- basketball and football. All of the schools that you mentioned have one of those two sports as their primary sport. The exposure that an Alabama gets from its football team, or a Duke gets from its basketball team, so greatly out weighs the exposure UND gets from its hockey team that your comparing UND to those schools is absurd.

 

The hard reality for UND as a hockey school is that a couple of sweet sixteen runs in the NCAA men's basketball tournament -- which is, I think, attainable for either NDSU or UND -- would return more media exposure and national interest than a hockey program ever can.

Does anyone have any information on what the revenue was for Sioux Hockey last season?  How about NDSU football?  Which one has a bigger revenue stream contribution to the University?  How about contribution after expenses?

[BobIwabuchiFan]

^{How are the budgets being cut for men's basketball and football in favor of Hockey...does anyone have real numbers to compare as opposed to gut feel on how a program is being "treated"?}

[Csonked Out]

^{How are the budgets being cut for men's basketball and football in favor of Hockey...does anyone have real numbers to compare as opposed to gut feel on how a program is being "treated"?}

I go off coaching salaries where we are way behind the competition. Even Bubba should be paid more than 150k. I never heard why we aren't more competitive in pay for Basketball and Football. Would be curious to hear as well

[jdub27]

Everything in life is cyclical.

 

Things are never as good or bad as they seem.

[UND-FB-FAN]

Does anyone have any information on what the revenue was for Sioux Hockey last season?  How about NDSU football?  Which one has a bigger revenue stream contribution to the University?  How about contribution after expenses?

 

 

http://www.undsports.com/fls/13500/Athletic%20Dept/BusOps/FY%202014%20NCAA%20AUP.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=13500

 

 

NCAA Report

 

Reporting Year (FY): 2014

 

 

Total Operating Revenues:

 

Football ---> $571,570

Men's Basketball ----> $402,211

Men's Hockey------> $4,140,720

 

 

Total Operating Expenses:

 

Football -----> $3,129,340

Men's Basketball -----> $ 1,085,943

Men's Hockey ----> $5,633,741

 

 

Excess of Revenue over Expenses:

 

Football----> - $2,557,700

Men's Basketball ----> - $683,732

Men's Hockey -----> - $1,493,021

 

 

 

To summarize, look at expenses, which covers vital program quality indicators such as coaching salaries, recruiting costs, and equipment/uniform costs. UND hockey uses $2 million more than UND football. That is where the change needs to happen; too large of a discrepancy. Hockey can still be king at a $1 million difference. 

 

 

And if the annual loss of money surprises you, then read this: http://www.acenet.edu/news-room/Pages/Myth-College-Sports-Are-a-Cash-Cow2.aspx

 

Winning athletic programs may ultimately affect total university revenue by increasing enrollment numbers; thus, collegiate athletics are very much so thriving. Of course, it is limited to fan favorite sports; football and basketball. Grand Forks is the exception as it is a hockey town. 

 

As a result, most colleges and universities rely on what the NCAA calls “allocated revenue.” This includes direct and indirect support from general funds, student fees, and government appropriations. In other words, most colleges subsidize their athletics programs, sometimes to startling degrees.

 

 

At liberal arts colleges like the one I attended, varsity sports drive enrollment. Should that count as profit? Any number of UGA students will tell you they came here because of the football team. What about goodwill generated among legislators and donors?

 

 

College sports can be a marvelous value experience and a focal point for community-building. But only a few colleges have programs that can provide such benefits without imposing significant costs on their institutions.

[SIOUXFAN97]

I go off coaching salaries where we are way behind the competition. Even Bubba should be paid more than 150k. I never heard why we aren't more competitive in pay for Basketball and Football. Would be curious to hear as well

but the foks over at REA arent talkin....where does all the money go??? good question.

[southpaw]

http://www.undsports.com/fls/13500/Athletic%20Dept/BusOps/FY%202014%20NCAA%20AUP.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=13500

 

 

NCAA Report

 

Reporting Year (FY): 2014

 

 

Total Operating Revenues:

 

Football ---> $571,570

Men's Basketball ----> $402,211

Men's Hockey------> $4,140,720

 

 

Total Operating Expenses:

 

Football -----> $3,129,340

Men's Basketball -----> $ 1,085,943

Men's Hockey ----> $5,633,741

 

 

Excess of Revenue over Expenses:

 

Football----> - $2,557,700

Men's Basketball ----> - $683,732

Men's Hockey -----> - $1,493,021

 

 

 

To summarize, look at expenses, which covers vital program quality indicators such as coaching salaries, recruiting costs, and equipment/uniform costs. UND hockey uses $2 million more than UND football. That is where the change needs to happen; too large of a discrepancy. Hockey can still be king at a $1 million difference. 

 

 

And if the annual loss of money surprises you, then read this: http://www.acenet.edu/news-room/Pages/Myth-College-Sports-Are-a-Cash-Cow2.aspx

 

Winning athletic programs may ultimately affect total university revenue by increasing enrollment numbers; thus, collegiate athletics are very much so thriving. Of course, it is limited to fan favorite sports; football and basketball. Grand Forks is the exception as it is a hockey town. 

 

I'm by no means a hockey only guy, as I've been to several road football trips the past handful of years but perhaps football should start bringing in more money and it could get a bigger cut of the funds.  If the two were switched and 3.2 mil was being spent on hockey when it only brought in $571k you would question why we are devoting so much to such a program.  Even more so if it showed the similar lack of positive results over the last decade.

[UND-FB-FAN]

I'm by no means a hockey only guy, as I've been to several road football trips the past handful of years but perhaps football should start bringing in more money and it could get a bigger cut of the funds.  If the two were switched and 3.2 mil was being spent on hockey when it only brought in $571k you would question why we are devoting so much to such a program.  Even more so if it showed the similar lack of positive results over the last decade.

 

 

This is where it gets tricky; athletic programs lose money, its just the way it is. Hockey loses money and so does football. Yes, football loses more than hockey, which is part of the reason the "revenue-generation" arguments from hockey-only supporters comes into play. But, the difference in coaching salaries/equipment/uniforms/recruiting dollars for UND football vs. UND hockey is $2 million; that's too much.  If hockey lowered their expenditures down to just $5 million, they would theoretically give UND football an extra $600,000 which would be phenomenal for the football program. 

 

Lastly, the football team will bring in much more when winning. Tickets sales will go up if UND wins consistently, which will minimize the revenue-expense margin. You have to spend money to make money, and I think UND athletics could do a better job investing in UND football.  

[Csonked Out]

but the foks over at REA arent talkin....where does all the money go??? good question.

men's hockey makes a profit so let's make sure we get that clear, UND is getting a return on their investment. From what I hear Basketball and Football are losing money. Do you pull money from a profitable program to improve others? That has to be the debate. We need to improve our other sports bUT at the cost of what? Men's hockey is clearly worth the money.

[cberkas]

This is where it gets tricky; athletic programs lose money, its just the way it is. Hockey loses money and so does football. Yes, football loses more than hockey, which is part of the reason the "revenue-generation" arguments from hockey-only supporters comes into play. But, the difference in coaching salaries/equipment/uniforms/recruiting dollars for UND football vs. UND hockey is $2 million; that's too much.  If hockey lowered their expenditures down to just $5 million, they would theoretically give UND football an extra $600,000 which would be phenomenal for the football program. 

 

Lastly, the football team will bring in much more when winning. Tickets sales will go up if UND wins consistently, which will minimize the revenue-expense margin. You have to spend money to make money, and I think UND athletics could do a better job investing in UND football.  

 

Men's hockey is most likely covering women's hockey expenses.

[fightingsioux4life]

men's hockey makes a profit so let's make sure we get that clear, UND is getting a return on their investment. From what I hear Basketball and Football are losing money. Do you pull money from a profitable program to improve others? That has to be the debate. We need to improve our other sports bUT at the cost of what? Men's hockey is clearly worth the money.

Most schools have one big revenue sport and use that money to fund the other programs.  The question SIOUXFAN97 asks is valid.  With the cash machine that is REA, why are we always looking under the cushions of our couch for money?  Or at least it seems that way.  If we don't fund FCOA for anything other than hockey, it will get only worse.  And things are not all that good right now.

[Csonked Out]

Most schools have one big revenue sport and use that money to fund the other programs. The question SIOUXFAN97 asks is valid. With the cash machine that is REA, why are we always looking under the cushions of our couch for money? Or at least it seems that way. If we don't fund FCOA for anything other than hockey, it will get only worse. And things are not all that good right now.

My answer is women's hockey....if that went away we could have a boatload of cash for the other sports. Starts a women's field hockey team for title 9 purposes.

Plus if REA is privately owned they don't have to release the books

[jdub27]

Plus if REA is privately owned they don't have to release the books

This isn't true. It's all owned and run by non-profits and their tax returns are available online.

[Csonked Out]

This isn't true. It's all owned and run by non-profits and their tax returns are available online.

I stand corrected then. My bad

[SIOUXFAN97]

This is where it gets tricky; athletic programs lose money, its just the way it is. Hockey loses money and so does football. Yes, football loses more than hockey, which is part of the reason the "revenue-generation" arguments from hockey-only supporters comes into play. But, the difference in coaching salaries/equipment/uniforms/recruiting dollars for UND football vs. UND hockey is $2 million; that's too much.  If hockey lowered their expenditures down to just $5 million, they would theoretically give UND football an extra $600,000 which would be phenomenal for the football program. 

 

Lastly, the football team will bring in much more when winning. Tickets sales will go up if UND wins consistently, which will minimize the revenue-expense margin. You have to spend money to make money, and I think UND athletics could do a better job investing in UND football.  

amen...one way that REA could save tons of money is reduce the amount of damn ushers at some of these games....the ratio of ushers to fans at some mens bball and womens games is damn crazy...and don't get me started on how many damn cops are needed at a womens game with an attendance of 1500 and 1495 of them are old norwegian men and women...

[The Sicatoka]

This isn't true. It's all owned and run by non-profits and their tax returns are available online.

 

Not truly a "tax return" but IRS Form 990. 

[SiouxVolley]

If the new IPF is not a commitment to football, what is it?

Was it just built for track?

[nodak651]

From the report posted for UND Athletics finances:

Program Sales, Concessions, Novelty Sales, and Parking.... Men's Football: $29,319   Men's Hockey: $6,086          LOL

 

What is the real number for men's hockey that the REA is keeping?

[SiouxVolley]

From the report posted for UND Athletics finances:

Program Sales, Concessions, Novelty Sales, and Parking.... Men's Football: $29,319   Men's Hockey: $6,086          LOL

 

What is the real number for men's hockey that the REA is keeping?

UND athletics doesn't report any REA revenue, including tickets. UND athletics gets booster club memberships directly and a charitable contribution by the REA

Its complicated to figure UND athletics accounting. Almost need a CPA.

[nodak651]

UND athletics doesn't report any REA revenue, including tickets. UND athletics gets booster club memberships directly and a charitable contribution by the REA

Its complicated to figure UND athletics accounting. Almost need a CPA.

The report specifically states UND M Hockey ticket sales.

[SiouxVolley]

The report specifically states UND M Hockey ticket sales.

The report is a generic college athletics accounting document form. Booster club membership fees best fit there.

[JohnboyND7]

The report specifically states UND M Hockey ticket sales.

Collegiate athletics is a nightmare to figure out. Very very very creative accounting.

[UND-FB-FAN]

Per the quote from the article I included: "As a result, most colleges and universities rely on what the NCAA calls “allocated revenue.” This includes direct and indirect support from general funds, student fees, and government appropriations. In other words, most colleges subsidize their athletics programs, sometimes to startling degrees."

What the REA offers would be known as "allocated revenue", and it wouldn't have to be reported as operations revenue.

[nodak651]

The report is a generic college athletics accounting document form. Booster club membership fees best fit there.

I feel like booster club membership fees would count as "contributions"

[siouxfan512]

This is unacceptable for a school that moved all their programs up to Division I. If we wanted to maintain a "hockey-only" attitude, we should have stayed in Division II and joined the NSIC. But we didnt', so we need to stop focusing on one sport and letting the others twist in the wind. Enough is enough.

THIS is not just about a school focus. There needs to be an understanding that a number 1 sport is based on fan following, not just school acknowledgement. The hockey teams fans base is the largest because of perennial success. Football becomes a perennial power; the fan base and follow.