Big Sky Athlete Stipends

[FargoBison]

He also said nobody infringes on anybody elses recruiting territory. Do you believe that also? His whole presser made no sense.

 

I think that was the Idaho State coach. What he said was well very odd...

 

 

http://www.idahostatejournal.com/members/isu-football-kramer-says-paying-full-cost-of-attendance-not/article_8def3a12-e31c-11e4-a6da-33ea61a3065a.html

[jodcon]

I think that was the Idaho State coach. What he said was well very odd...

 

 

http://www.idahostatejournal.com/members/isu-football-kramer-says-paying-full-cost-of-attendance-not/article_8def3a12-e31c-11e4-a6da-33ea61a3065a.html

 

I hadn't seen that, Kramer is always entertaining if nothing else. Bottom line...deep down he knows the Griz and Cats could pull the trigger if they wanted to and that worries him

[cberkas]

I hadn't seen that, Kramer is always entertaining if nothing else. Bottom line...deep down he knows the Griz and Cats could pull the trigger if they wanted to and that worries him

 

That is true, Griz have the richest man in Montana funding them and Montana State's President knows how to get money to fund the work that goes on at Montana State's campus.

[bison73]

I think that was the Idaho State coach. What he said was well very odd...

 

 

http://www.idahostatejournal.com/members/isu-football-kramer-says-paying-full-cost-of-attendance-not/article_8def3a12-e31c-11e4-a6da-33ea61a3065a.html

 

 

Yep that was him. Thanks for the correction.

[SiouxVolley]

I think that was the Idaho State coach. What he said was well very odd...

http://www.idahostatejournal.com/members/isu-football-kramer-says-paying-full-cost-of-attendance-not/article_8def3a12-e31c-11e4-a6da-33ea61a3065a.html

Kramer knows Idaho State has no money for anything. Wealthy boosters in SE Idaho would give to BYU, BYU-Idaho to restart athletics, or Boise St. Idaho St has no traction except in the immediate Pocatello area. Idaho Falls, which is only 60 mile N has much more wealth and is growing fast, isnt interested in ISU except to fill nursing and teacher roles. Pocatello would never approve a city funded Alerus or FargoDome, as SE Idaho is the most conservative part of Idaho and people there look on their 10% tithe (have to pay 10% or they lose your Temple privileges) as the "state" tax.

Weber St will offer MBb and presumably WBb FCOA, or its fans in Ogden will revolt.

[Hammersmith]

Hammersmith quoted a number for FCOA at UND. Remember, that number is a max that a school can pay -- the full cost of attendance. A school can offer a lesser amount.

UND uses the first prong (proportionality) to comply with Title IX. UND's student body M/W ratio is basically proportional to its student athete M/W ratio.

NDSU uses the third prong (interests and abilities survey). That prong is not the one the NCAA recommends using; however, it is still legal were NDSU to be challenged in Federal court. What NDSU should worry about is their vastly disproportionate M/W ratios and their very, very good womens club hockey team and someone challenging their survey techniques i.e. how come NDSU isn't looking to add a womens sport (good womens club team = interest and ability).

 

I might have been wrong about that number. The FCOA is linked to a number reported to the feds and disclosed by the university. It's usually in the financial aid portion of the website. According to the cost estimator on UND's website, the number is $5810. But according to UND's 2015-16 academic catalog, it's $3400. I don't know which one the university considers official. Probably the $3400, but it's odd that that number isn't built into the estimator. 

[Hammersmith]

Doubt it, and hopefully WBB will be getting it this year. If they are the only ones in the league Brew will clean up.

 

Not to turn this into a MVFC/Summit vs. Big Sky talk, but with all this FCOA talk going on it makes even more sense for UND and NDSU to be in the same conference anyways. I bet NDSU makes an extra $400,000-$500,000 in tickets/donations this year from the UND - NDSU FB game and if they were in the same conference they and UND would get that every other year, plus a home VB, MBB, and WBB home game every year. Those games would also be conference games so they would mean a whole lot more. 

 

That right there could be an extra $600,000-$700,000 every two years in extra ticket revenue with most coming from the football games and the donations and tickets that come with it. 

 

The NDSU/UND game will net NDSU about another $50k in ticket sales. The $25 extra charge is only on single game tickets. That's either 1500 or 2000 tickets. The 1500 number has been quoted in the media before, but I don't know if it includes the visitor allotment. So anywhere from $38k-$50k.

 

There will probably be an increase in TM donations, but that will likely be more to do with the overall scarcity of tickets(sold out for three years running) than the impact of any single game. Also, there are still a significant number of grandfathered seats that are being increased to market value. Those will continue to bump up the total TM revenue until they all reach market value(whenever that will be).

[SiouxVolley]

Yeah, the Summit isn't going to start mandating its members to play all the sports the conference offers, nobody in the conference would want that.

That not what I said. The Slummit has three sports that need are required for eligibility of the AQ bid: MBB, m soccer, and baseball. It could mandate all three, and force the Dakota out of an FCOA situation. Ndsu would probably have to add three sports, with two being women. Omaha, ORU, WIU, IUPUI, and IPFW would lose nothing. USD would be badly hurting, as they have neither baseball or men'soccer and would have to meet Title Ix.

The Big Sky, MAC, Sun Belt and other conferences mandate sports. Buffalo had to start baseball when they joined. UND had to offer men's tennis and SUU had to start VB.

[FargoBison]

That not what I said. The Slummit has three sports that need are required for eligibility of the AQ bid: MBB, m soccer, and baseball. It could mandate all three, and force the Dakota out of an FCOA situation. Ndsu would probably have to add three sports, with two being women. Omaha, ORU, WIU, IUPUI, and IPFW would lose nothing. USD would be badly hurting, as they have neither baseball or men'soccer and would have to meet Title Ix.

The Big Sky, MAC, Sun Belt and other conferences mandate sports. Buffalo had to start baseball when they joined.

 

Denver would need to add baseball, IUPUI would need to add baseball and SDSU would need to add men's soccer. USD would probably have to drop football or leave DI if that happened. I don't see that getting much traction. 

[Hammersmith]

Hammersmith quoted a number for FCOA at UND. Remember, that number is a max that a school can pay -- the full cost of attendance. A school can offer a lesser amount.

UND uses the first prong (proportionality) to comply with Title IX. UND's student body M/W ratio is basically proportional to its student athete M/W ratio.

NDSU uses the third prong (interests and abilities survey). That prong is not the one the NCAA recommends using; however, it is still legal were NDSU to be challenged in Federal court. What NDSU should worry about is their vastly disproportionate M/W ratios and their very, very good womens club hockey team and someone challenging their survey techniques i.e. how come NDSU isn't looking to add a womens sport (good womens club team = interest and ability).

 

Do you have an NCAA link backing that statement up? Because I have one that is neutral at worst, and maybe even slightly in favor of prong 3.

 

What a lot of you seem to forget is that NDSU was on the wrong side of a Title IX lawsuit not all that long ago. A mediator came in and gave the athletic department a list of things that needed to be changed. Within a year or so, all those changes were complete and the mediator signed off on it. A few years later, the department went through another close examination from an outside source when NDSU moved to DI. So a federal mediator and the NCAA inspectors have both looked at NDSU and judged that it satisfies prong 3. Yet some of you are convinced that an ax is about to come crashing down.

 

http://www.inforum.com/content/equal-ground-years-after-sex-discrimination-lawsuit-ndsu-has-made-things-right-when-it-comes

(interesting note: the four things wanted by women's coaches in this article(2009) have all been accomplished: higher assist. coaching salaries, bubble over Dacotah, soccer stadium, and renovated BSA.)

 

Would I like to see another women's sport at NDSU? Yep. I enjoy watching NDSU succeed in women's sports and would love to see us succeed in yet another. Do I think another women's sport will be started at NDSU sooner rather than later? Probably. I keep waffling between thinking NDSU is about to go FBS or not. I'll see some signs pointing one direction, then see signs pointing the opposite. If we go DI, adding a women's sport is a near certainty. Even if we stay FCS it's more than likely. I tend to favor restarting tennis. Low operating costs to start. Have a conference home ready to go. I'd love to restart S&D, but the facility situation is a big problem. NDSU will be adding a pool to its Wellness Center shortly(students have voted for it and it's in the upcoming state budget), but I don't know if it will be suitable for DI competition. If it is, then problem mostly solved. Hockey is possible, of course, but I'd view it as a distant third. I could easily be wrong, however. Someone far more connected to the NDSU athletic department suggested it was the most likely addition. But he posted it on April 1, and he has a habit of very dry humorous comments. He never elaborated if he was joking or serious.

[The Sicatoka]

Do you have an NCAA link backing that statement up? Because I have one that is neutral at worst, and maybe even slightly in favor of prong 3.

 

Sorry for the ugly formatting, but ... 

 

Reaction to the 2005 Additional Clarification has been largely negative. Critics oppose the model survey’s methodology. Shortly after its issuance, more than 140 congressional Democrats wrote to President George W. Bush, decrying the OCR’s interpretation.8

 Their chief complaint was that the survey “creates a major loophole and lowers the standard for Title IX compliance, jeopardizing the number of athletic opportunities available to women and girls in schools across the country.”9

 The National Collegiate Athletics Association (NCAA) has also expressed concern regarding the statistical evidence. The NCAA believes reliance on such data could adversely affect program expansion pursuant to Title IX mandates and urged its “members to decline use of the procedures set forth in the Additional Clarification.”10 

 

 

Source: http://www.willamette.edu/wucl/pdf/sportslaw/spring07/art4.pdf

 

Basically that says when criteria for use of the third prong (interests and abilities survey) was loosened up, the NCAA was opposed. --> Urged members to decline use of the Additional Clarification (a.k.a. the third prong approach). 

 

Why were the NCAA and 140 Congressional representatives opposed to the survey approach? As it says,

... the survey “creates a major loophole and lowers the standard for Title IX compliance, jeopardizing the number of athletic opportunities available to women and girls in schools across the country.”

 

 

 

129 womens athletes at NDSU (third prong: interests survey); over 200 at UND (first prong: proportionality). 

 

8 mens, 8 womens sports at NDSU; 10 mens, 11 womens sports at UND. 

[The Sicatoka]

 

What a lot of you seem to forget is that NDSU was on the wrong side of a Title IX lawsuit not all that long ago. A mediator came in and gave the athletic department a list of things that needed to be changed. Within a year or so, all those changes were complete and the mediator signed off on it. A few years later, the department went through another close examination from an outside source when NDSU moved to DI. So a federal mediator and the NCAA inspectors have both looked at NDSU and judged that it satisfies prong 3. Yet some of you are convinced that an ax is about to come crashing down.

 

When you keep getting challenged and keep needing to evaluate what you're doing, don't you think that maybe you should re-evaluate what you're doing to better align to what the rest of the NCAA does? 

[jdub27]

The athletically related student aid is 60/40. Coaches salaries, travel and recruiting budgets are very competitive. The NCAA approved NDSU's compliance when the school went DI. 

 

That still doesn't address the opportunity for participation part of the equation, a large part of what Title IX is meant to address.

 

Athletic aid is 61/39 in favor of men's teams.

Game-day operating expense is 64/36 in favor of men's teams.

Total expenses (excluding unallocated) is 65/35 in favor of men's teams.

 

Tell me again how those are equitable?

[The Sicatoka]

That still doesn't address the opportunity for participation part of the equation, a large part of what Title IX is meant to address.

 

Correct: Title IX was written to address money, ... and opportunity to participate. 

[mksioux]

I don't necessarily mind that UND is monitoring the landscape for football, but I didn't really like Faison's comment referencing only Big Sky schools.  Yes, UND is in the Big Sky, but I think monitoring what the other 3 Dakota schools do is as important, if not more important, than what the Big Sky schools do.  I'm sure Faison will be monitoring those schools as well, but it's somewhat interesting that he only mentioned the Big Sky.  

 

The bottom line is that if any of the Dakota schools offer FCOA for football, UND must as well.  In fact, I'd say the only acceptable landscape where UND doesn't offer FCOA for football is if none of the FCS schools do it.  If any of them do it, there will be a domino effect and UND has to be a part of it, preferably sooner rather than later.

[jdub27]

I don't necessarily mind that UND is monitoring the landscape for football, but I didn't really like Faison's comment referencing only Big Sky schools.  Yes, UND is in the Big Sky, but I think monitoring what the other 3 Dakota schools do is as important, if not more important, than what the Big Sky schools do.  I'm sure Faison will be monitoring those schools as well, but it's somewhat interesting that he only mentioned the Big Sky.  

 

The bottom line is that if any of the Dakota schools offer FCOA for football, UND must as well.  In fact, I'd say the only acceptable landscape where UND doesn't offer FCOA for football is if none of the FCS schools do it.  If any of them do it, there will be a domino effect and UND has to be a part of it, preferably sooner rather than later.

 

Liberty has already announced they are offering it at the FCS level but they continue to push to move FBS.

 

I do agree with your comments and can say that the athletic department is monitoring the situation closely and not with just the Big Sky schools.  Again, it comes down to paying for it.  If UND had the funds sitting around today, I fully believe they would do it across the board.

[mksioux]

Liberty has already announced they are offering it at the FCS level but they continue to push to move FBS.

 

I do agree with your comments and can say that the athletic department is monitoring the situation closely and not with just the Big Sky schools.  Again, it comes down to paying for it.  If UND had the funds sitting around today, I fully believe they would do it across the board.

I didn't know about Liberty.  It will be interesting to see if that will be enough for other schools to follow suit.  Perhaps if Liberty already has one foot out the door to FBS, it won't cause the domino effect.  

 

I was just a little concerned with the comment only referencing the Big Sky because FCOA is more important in who you recruit against than it is who you play against.  In UND's case, that isn't necessarily the same.  But I suppose Faison didn't have to specifically mention NDSU by name because if NDSU does it, I'm sure Montana and Montana State will follow suit.  At least I think that would be the case.

[Cratter]

Does anyone here think NDSU wont be offering FCOA?

[jdub27]

Does anyone here think NDSU wont be offering FCOA?

 

Not at the level some of their fans think.  Pretty sure they need to figure out wrestling first as that is where they will see it have a material impact immediately.  No coincidence their AD backed quite a bit after the initial announcement and hasn't said much since.  And it isn't because they want to keep it "under the radar" as a competitive advantage.

[The Sicatoka]

As much as I hate to see it, I would support cutting 1-2 programs if necessary.  UND sponsors 21 different teams, a good percentage higher than its peer schools.

 

I look at what the BSC sponsors and what UND sponsors, and think: drop baseball and M/W swimming and diving. 

[The Sicatoka]

 This isn't like a scholarship which can be written off as a paper transaction if necessary, this is actual cash that will have to be paid out to student-athletes.

 

That singular statement needs reiterating. 

 

A scholarship can be written into overhead of the cost of doing business (running the university). FCOA is cutting a check for real funds* out of a real account.

 

 

"Straight cash, homey." -- Randy Moss

[niouxsiouxfan]

The fact that UND is in "wait and see" mode, or "evaluating" the situation, makes me hesitant to have any faith in the Athletic Department, which there is little. Can't believe I'm seconding GFHockey, but raise tickets a few bucks, hit up boosters, sell more advertising, whatever needs to be done to raise the funds. Even cut a couple of programs if that makes fiscal sense. Lead, please don't follow. If we do it from the jump, we gain a competitive edge. Football will be paying for itself in a short period of time, and I would say MBB wouldn't be far behind. Hockey isn't the major money making program in college sports, that is proven. Put UND in the lead position on this, make everyone else catch up. I know many people in favor of paying a little more to make this a reality.

***oh and don't raise beer prices (or any liquids, for those of us who don't drink alcohol)***

[The Sicatoka]

Football will be paying for itself in a short period of time, and I would say MBB wouldn't be far behind. Hockey isn't the major money making program in college sports, that is proven. 

 

Football pays for itself nowhere save for a few P5 schools. Basketball is better because of far fewer scholarships but still not a lot of places. 

 

Hockey pays for itself at a very very few unique places. 

 

College athletics is subsidized for the most part most everywhere. 

[fightingsioux4life]

The fact that UND is in "wait and see" mode, or "evaluating" the situation, makes me hesitant to have any faith in the Athletic Department, which there is little. Can't believe I'm seconding GFHockey, but raise tickets a few bucks, hit up boosters, sell more advertising, whatever needs to be done to raise the funds. Even cut a couple of programs if that makes fiscal sense. Lead, please don't follow. If we do it from the jump, we gain a competitive edge. Football will be paying for itself in a short period of time, and I would say MBB wouldn't be far behind. Hockey isn't the major money making program in college sports, that is proven. Put UND in the lead position on this, make everyone else catch up. I know many people in favor of paying a little more to make this a reality.

***oh and don't raise beer prices (or any liquids, for those of us who don't drink alcohol)***

Exactly what I am thinking.  This is proactive thinking, not reactive thinking.  And this is what we need to do.

[UND-1]

Football pays for itself nowhere save for a few P5 schools. Basketball is better because of far fewer scholarships. 

 

Hockey pays for itself at a very very few unique places. 

 

Football loses ALOT of money at UND, much like everywhere else (like you said).  Hopefully, attendance will rise and it will lose less money in the future.  

 

But, it along with hockey are the two most visible programs so they help bring exposure/marketing to the university.