Discontinuing the UND Shuttle Service is a HUGE, UNFORGIVABLE MISTAKE

[The Sicatoka]

I have a million dollar idea for someone:

Run a shuttle/cab service from the ramp to REA on game day.

There seems to be a large number of folks willing to pay for that ride and many here are saying it is surely a money-maker.

[82SiouxGuy]

I have been thinking about this myself. If UND is so cash-strapped, why don't they get rid of the campus-wide shuttles that run 9 months out of the year, 5 days a week (minus Christmas Break, Spring Break and Holidays) because they don't make money and thus are 100% "in the red"? If they can't afford to run shuttles for home hockey games (while charging for ramp parking), how can they afford those weekday shuttles for students? This is yet another 2+2=5 moment that doesn't pass the smell test. But according to some people on this forum, we should just accept whatever explanation is dished out by the suits in Twamley Hall and never, ever question authority.

As for me, I will continue asking the questions that should be asked. After all, we are all stakeholders here. Right?

The only place you ask questions is on internet forums, not exactly the most efficient way to get information.

The daily shuttles are for students. Remember students, the reason that colleges exist? Not college hockey fans, but actual students. The campus is large enough now that it is difficult to get from class on one end of campus to a class on the other end of campus within the 10 minutes between classes. UND provides shuttle service so students can get from class to class on time. What a novel concept, a college providing a service to help students get to class. I'm sure that if you asked the proper people you will find that the shuttles are either paid out of student fees or another fund related to operation of the college. Either one would be another novel concept, student fees paying for a student service or a fund for operations of the college paying for part of the operations. But, why would a college waste money doing something for students?

I really can't comprehend how you can try to compare a college providing services for students, to that same college losing money to help non-students go to a hockey game. And one more time I will say it, ask the question of the people that actually make the decisions rather than thinking your being powerful and holding people responsible by asking a question on an internet forum. You might actually get your answer from the people that have the full information.

[Cratter]

Ironic but when I was kid everyone walked to school any many lived more than 5-6 blocks away. Didn't matter how cold it was. We also went outside at recess no matter how cold it was. Now your kid can not take a little cold? Or is it you that can not take a little cold?

This is pretty funny. I walked the same distance every day in elementary school here in Grand Forks to Lewis and Clark....and I know it was a hike as I lived on the boarder (18th ave south) between the two schools (Viking and Lewis and Clark). I musta started walking the distance in first or second grade...don't remember the exact grade.

[fightingsioux4life]

Parking lots take money to build and maintain. It's expensive to move snow all winter. It costs money to paint lines, clean the lots, repair, etc. Retail businesses build that into their overhead. Using the UND parking lots for sporting events wasn't part of the original budget for those lots. And the extra traffic causes issues that need to be paid for. Places like Grand Forks are just late to the party, more and more of them charge for parking. The difference is the amount. Like I said, I've paid $20 or $30 for parking at the Final Five.

Everything costs money. Does anyone else notice that down at NDSU, they generally don't talk about how they can't afford this and that; they just get it done. Both schools have one big revenue sport (NDSU has football, UND has hockey), both schools have similar enrollments and both schools have sports that need subsidies from both within and outside the athletic department. But it just feels like NDSU makes progress, while UND makes excuses. I hope that some of that $300+ million endowment can be used to address some of these shortcomings. It would enhance our programs and help make them more successful, which in the long-run will help generate more revenues. And that is my primary concern, the long-term health of UND as a whole.

[Cratter]

So this argument really comes down to people complaining about a walking distance (in north dakota winter)?

As has been pointed out there are still plenty of options. It's not like they tore down a ramp. Why would you even want to ride the shuttle when you can park closer and walk at the albatross for the same price and not have to deal with the hassle of using a shuttle bus?

[fightingsioux4life]

And one more time I will say it, ask the question of the people that actually make the decisions rather than thinking your being powerful and holding people responsible by asking a question on an internet forum. You might actually get your answer from the people that have the full information.

This is a discussion forum. People come here to discuss things. That is what I am doing. I know all you care about is "exchanging information", but not everyone shares the same viewpoint. And no, I don't think I am "being powerful" posting on here, I just get a kick out of you defending the establishment on every single issue, no matter how Orwellian or boilerplate the answer sounds like. I wasn't born yesterday and dried behind the stove and my momma didn't raise a fool for a son. I also have BS and MS Degrees in Public Administration, I have worked on campus for the better part of 10 years and I am an astute observer of politics. Thus, I think I have a pretty decent grasp as to how upper-level management thinks and behaves about issues big and small and how big institutions like UND operate. That is why I am quick to call out BS when I hear it. It is a skill you should try sometime; it is very useful.

As for asking questions of the people in power, that generally does not yield much return on investment. You saw the boilerplate answer that YaneA got. That is what big institutions do when they make unpopular decisions, they answer the questions without actually answering them. Since boilerplate answers do nothing more than tick me off, what is the point of asking the question? Cynical? Yes, but I have found this to be true more often than not.

[smokey the cat]

Based on this logic, Wal-Mart could get rid of their on-site parking and replace it with paid RV parking because "we are responsible for getting ourselves there" (taxi, city bus....whatever). And you would probably plunk down the cash for taxi fare or bus ticket and still shop at Wal-Mart. Well, at least you would have the store to yourself because 99% of the people would not stand for that nonsense. So why should UND hockey fans put up with it?

Also, how do you think it would work if the Xcel Energy Center in St. Paul had very limited on-site parking and people "were responsible for getting themselves there"? Without that big parking ramp connected to the arena, it would be a disaster. But when it comes to UND hockey, it's "just the way it is".

This small-time, local-yokel mentality will simply not work in the long-term. We wanted Division I athletics, we got Division I athletics. But unless we want to settle for being "Division I in name only", we had better start solving (or at least start planning to solve) some of these issues.

Parking ramps were in place before the Xcel Center was built.

[Cratter]

I've been to plenty of hockey games. Never used the shuttle once. Always seemed pointless to me. As 82 pointed out, So many better options for parking!

[smokey the cat]

This is pretty funny. I walked the same distance every day in elementary school here in Grand Forks to Lewis and Clark....and I know it was a hike as I lived on the boarder (18th ave south) between the two schools (Viking and Lewis and Clark). I musta started walking the distance in first or second grade...don't remember the exact grade.

And you did not even think twice about it. All your little friends were doing the same thing. Like the kids walking from 17th ave. s and 15th st. to Lewis and Clark everyday. At one time L&C's boundary's were from 18th ave s. and s. 9th st to 17th ave s. and 15th st to Demers to s. 10th st and back to Elks Park. And the kids walked from all corners to school everyday without a whine, even the kindergarteners.

[fightingsioux4life]

So this argument really comes down to people complaining about a walking distance (in north dakota winter)?

As has been pointed out there are still plenty of options. It's not like they tore down a ramp. Why would you even want to ride the shuttle when you can park closer and walk at the albatross for the same price and not have to deal with the hassle of using a shuttle bus?

The crux of this issue isn't "walking distances", although that is the most obvious problem for most people. The real issue is, why a $104 million hockey arena doesn't have more adequate parking for its customers? And what does that say about UND as an institution? This is something that probably should have been addressed when the arena was being built, but it's obviously too late to wring our hands about that now. What we need is some creative thinking from creative people to figure out a long-term solution to this problem. And, despite what some people on here will tell you, it is a problem. Any large-scale sports or entertainment venue needs adequate parking options that are reasonably close to the building itself. REA does not. This is one of REA's few flaws. Fixing it would generate a lot of customer goodwill, which is tough to earn but very easy to lose.

[fightingsioux4life]

Parking ramps were in place before the Xcel Center was built.

My point is, without those parking ramps, people going to events at the X would be SOL. And it would cause all sorts of problems in downtown St. Paul.

[fightingsioux4life]

And you did not even think twice about it. All your little friends were doing the same thing. Like the kids walking from 17th ave. s and 15th st. to Lewis and Clark everyday. At one time L&C's boundary's were from 18th ave s. and s. 9th st to 17th ave s. and 15th st to Demers to s. 10th st and back to Elks Park. And the kids walked from all corners to school everyday without a whine, even the kindergarteners.

And while we are at it, lets go back to the horse and buggy.

[Cratter]

The crux of this issue isn't "walking distances", although that is the most obvious problem for most people. The real issue is, why a $104 million hockey arena doesn't have more adequate parking for its customers? And what does that say about UND as an institution? This is something that probably should have been addressed when the arena was being built, but it's obviously too late to wring our hands about that now. What we need is some creative thinking from creative people to figure out a long-term solution to this problem. And, despite what some people on here will tell you, it is a problem. Any large-scale sports or entertainment venue needs adequate parking options that are reasonably close to the building itself. REA does not. This is one of REA's few flaws. Fixing it would generate a lot of customer goodwill, which is tough to earn but very easy to lose.

I agree. I think a parking ramp should be built. There's a perfect spot for it in the gravel by the wellness center. The REA could build a bar at the top and only be open on hockey games. Be a great way to enhance the Gameday experiece and the Ralph's bottom line. But they seem pretty cash strapped too as they can't even afford video boards for the Betty! Haha

[fightingsioux4life]

I agree. I think a parking ramp should be built. There's a perfect spot for it in the gravel by the wellness center. The REA could build a bar at the top and only be open on hockey games. Be a great way to enhance the Gameday experiece and the Ralph's bottom line. But they seem pretty cash strapped too as they can't even afford video boards for the Betty! Haha

Put a $1 tax on all concession items (beer, nachos, Coke, hot dogs). That would raise mad money (especially the beer! ). Add a $1 surcharge to all tickets. Do this for all events at REA, not just hockey. I think you would be surprised at how much money gets raised and how quickly it happens.

[82SiouxGuy]

Based on this logic, Wal-Mart could get rid of their on-site parking and replace it with paid RV parking because "we are responsible for getting ourselves there" (taxi, city bus....whatever). And you would probably plunk down the cash for taxi fare or bus ticket and still shop at Wal-Mart. Well, at least you would have the store to yourself because 99% of the people would not stand for that nonsense. So why should UND hockey fans put up with it?

Also, how do you think it would work if the Xcel Energy Center in St. Paul had very limited on-site parking and people "were responsible for getting themselves there"? Without that big parking ramp connected to the arena, it would be a disaster. But when it comes to UND hockey, it's "just the way it is".

This small-time, local-yokel mentality will simply not work in the long-term. We wanted Division I athletics, we got Division I athletics. But unless we want to settle for being "Division I in name only", we had better start solving (or at least start planning to solve) some of these issues.

As I stated in an earlier post, retail businesses have to make parking part of their overhead. You can buy the same product in many different places. If Walmart wanted to charge for parking, Target would have free parking and take all of the customers. How many other places are offering UND hockey live and in person? Not exactly the same, is it?

Have you been to Xcel? They don't have any parking dedicated to the Xcel Energy Center. They share a ramp with the convention center, it's even named after the convention center. Even if there is nothing happening at the convention center or anywhere else downtown, that ramp will not handle even half of the crowd for a hockey game. On the Xcel Energy Center web site they recommend 10 other ramps, some of them more than 5 blocks away. None of those ramps provide shuttle service to the arena. Most of them charge more than any of the parking lots around the REA, and those are the furthest away. I have paid $20 for the convention center ramp and $30 for a surface lot west of Xcel. Even the ramp at UND is within the same distance as the recommended parking ramps for Xcel and you can find plenty of parking closer to REA than that.

You have a very distorted view of what most of Division I is like. There is a small group at the very top that has a huge budget and can do all kinds of things. UND has a bigger budget and does a lot more than a lot of Division I schools. As a matter of fact, they are almost exactly in the middle of 227 Division I schools according to this database http://usatoday30.us...base/54955804/1. That is in spite of being in only the second full year in Division I. According to that database UND ranks right ahead of Montana in athletic department revenue and more than 10 places ahead of NDSU. Montana State is the only school in the Big Sky with higher revenue. The first 3 schools also rate very well by having among the lowest subsidies by the school itself. More than 50% of their revenue come from tickets, donors, sponsors, etc. UND is about 80th overall among the 227 schools schools on the list and approximately 70 of those schools are from the big conferences. Montana State ranks lower with about 30% of revenues coming from outside sources. UND is still growing the program to where it is going to be. You don't get everything overnight. UND is not going to be Texas or Ohio State.

PS. The list of 227 schools in the database linked above includes only public schools. Private schools will also have a wide spread in athletic department revenue and expenses with some schools ranking above UND and some ranking below UND..

Edited October 23, 2013 by 82SiouxGuy

[smokey the cat]

And while we are at it, lets go back to the horse and buggy.

Horse and sleigh!

[WiSioux]

Who knew this thread would go on so long. I try to read it and be amused but it just makes me so frustrated. I agree with 82. I have never expected ANY venue to provide a shuttle for me. I don't see walking a few blocks as a problem. If you don't want to walk from Memorial Stadium, leave your house earlier, park on a closer street and wait in the lobby where it is warm for the doors to open. If you have elderly, children, disabled, etc drop them off at the door then go park the car (how you leave I am not sure). There are SO MANY other options than the shuttle and I think parking is adequate around the Ralph.

[gfhockey]

someone needs to get fired for this disaster...whether its Faison lucke Kelley or hodgson

[jdub27]

Everything costs money. Does anyone else notice that down at NDSU, they generally don't talk about how they can't afford this and that; they just get it done. Both schools have one big revenue sport (NDSU has football, UND has hockey), both schools have similar enrollments and both schools have sports that need subsidies from both within and outside the athletic department. But it just feels like NDSU makes progress, while UND makes excuses. I hope that some of that $300+ million endowment can be used to address some of these shortcomings. It would enhance our programs and help make them more successful, which in the long-run will help generate more revenues. And that is my primary concern, the long-term health of UND as a whole.

Yeah, NDSU has been really on the ball about getting the remodel of the BSA done, 10 years and counting.

This is a discussion forum. People come here to discuss things. That is what I am doing. I know all you care about is "exchanging information", but not everyone shares the same viewpoint. And no, I don't think I am "being powerful" posting on here, I just get a kick out of you defending the establishment on every single issue, no matter how Orwellian or boilerplate the answer sounds like. I wasn't born yesterday and dried behind the stove and my momma didn't raise a fool for a son. I also have BS and MS Degrees in Public Administration, I have worked on campus for the better part of 10 years and I am an astute observer of politics. Thus, I think I have a pretty decent grasp as to how upper-level management thinks and behaves about issues big and small and how big institutions like UND operate. That is why I am quick to call out BS when I hear it. It is a skill you should try sometime; it is very useful.

As for asking questions of the people in power, that generally does not yield much return on investment. You saw the boilerplate answer that YaneA got. That is what big institutions do when they make unpopular decisions, they answer the questions without actually answering them. Since boilerplate answers do nothing more than tick me off, what is the point of asking the question? Cynical? Yes, but I have found this to be true more often than not.

You claim to want to "discuss" things and say that you are "asking the questions that should be asked". To who? A bunch of anonymous people on the internet?? If you really wanted answers, you would ask some of those people you work on campus with and actually get real answers instead of just complaining here. If you do it here, you know that you aren't likely to get the answer you want and you'll be able to complain some more that no one is answering your questions.

My point is, without those parking ramps, people going to events at the X would be SOL. And it would cause all sorts of problems in downtown St. Paul.

You ever tried to park at the Metrodome?

The crux of this issue isn't "walking distances", although that is the most obvious problem for most people. The real issue is, why a $104 million hockey arena doesn't have more adequate parking for its customers? And what does that say about UND as an institution? This is something that probably should have been addressed when the arena was being built, but it's obviously too late to wring our hands about that now. What we need is some creative thinking from creative people to figure out a long-term solution to this problem. And, despite what some people on here will tell you, it is a problem. Any large-scale sports or entertainment venue needs adequate parking options that are reasonably close to the building itself. REA does not. This is one of REA's few flaws. Fixing it would generate a lot of customer goodwill, which is tough to earn but very easy to lose.

So you want an arena that is at capacity maybe 25 nights a year to eat up a bunch of the limited space left on campus so you don't have to walk less than 1/2 mile on those nights? The Ralph isn't in the middle of the boonies where space is unlimited, it was put on campus because that is where it belongs.

[MafiaMan]

Do you feel that any other venue has that obligation to provide you close parking at a reasonable rate? If you went to the Final Five at Xcel, did you feel that Xcel had an obligation to provide "reasonable parking", or did you pay whatever the prices? The closest lots were often $20 or $30. Have you gone to events at the Metrodome? Do you believe that they had an obligation to provide "reasonable parking"? There has never been a lot of parking real close to the Metrodome and the parking has never been reasonable. Or is REA the only venue that you believe has this obligation to provide "reasonable parking"?

Of the venues listed in your argument here, only one is a college facility. A more valid comparison would be Mariucci Arena, Kohl Center, or the Herb Brooks National Hockey Center.

[Snake]

Based on this logic, Wal-Mart could get rid of their on-site parking and replace it with paid RV parking because "we are responsible for getting ourselves there" (taxi, city bus....whatever). And you would probably plunk down the cash for taxi fare or bus ticket and still shop at Wal-Mart. Well, at least you would have the store to yourself because 99% of the people would not stand for that nonsense. So why should UND hockey fans put up with it?

I like how you killed your argument in the same paragraph. People would simply choose to shop where they don't have to pay for parking if it was overall beneficial to them.

Try finding another UND hockey game to go to where you don't have to pay for parking and walk into the arena in the cold...

[Snake]

Put a $1 tax on all concession items (beer, nachos, Coke, hot dogs). That would raise mad money (especially the beer! ). Add a $1 surcharge to all tickets. Do this for all events at REA, not just hockey. I think you would be surprised at how much money gets raised and how quickly it happens.

Why hurt the little guy buying concessions for their kids?

[Snake]

You ever tried to park at the Metrodome?

You ever tried to take a leak at the Metrodome?!? Parking is the least of their problems!

[82SiouxGuy]

Of the venues listed in your argument here, only one is a college facility. A more valid comparison would be Mariucci Arena, Kohl Center, or the Herb Brooks National Hockey Center.

He said that "reasonable parking" was an implied obligation for WHOEVER is selling the ticket. He didn't say college facility. That's why I used 2 professional venues that were close to the Grand Forks area but that I knew had parking issues. I wasn't trying to use comparable arenas in this case. There is ABSOLUTELY NO IMPLIED OBLIGATION FOR REASONABLE PARKING, whatever the hell that even means. The parking situation is very public. If you attend games with any regularity you should know the parking situation. If you don't you aren't paying attention. The building has been open for 12 years. Plenty of parking options have been listed in this thread alone within walking distance.

[jdub27]

Of the venues listed in your argument here, only one is a college facility. A more valid comparison would be Mariucci Arena, Kohl Center, or the Herb Brooks National Hockey Center.

Never been to the last two, but I know we parked at least a 10 minute walk away from the Mariucci when I was there. Looking at the Kohl Center website it doesn't appear that there is a lot of parking right next to the building. No clue on the Herb Brooks Center, though with a capacity of less than half of the Ralph, I would assume parking isn't as big of a problem.