Why cant UND have a new nickname yet?

[82SiouxGuy]

I am aware that ESPN does use the nicknames all the time, but is that the reason for us getting a nickname, so the announcers have something to call us. As I was watching the Frozen Four & they congratulated Providence they called them the Terriers. I know that it wasn't ESPN, but still it was wrong.

 

Also in making my point, other than the announcers, who uses the nicknames. Do you say that the Pioneers are coming to play hockey this weekend or do you say Denver. I don't hear very many people using the nickname of Northern Arizona when they come to play football or basketball here. I guess one of my points was people know us as North Dakota just as we know our teams by their names, not nicknames.

If nicknames weren't important, and people never used them, then people wouldn't be upset about losing the Fighting Sioux nickname.  Whether you hear them or not, people use sports nicknames all of the time.  The Twins are playing the Indians this weekend.  The Wild lost to the Blues today.  Will AP play for the Vikings next year, or will the Vikings trade him to the Cowboys during the draft next weekend.  People talk about the Pios or Pioneers, the Red and Purple Mavericks, the Huskies, the Beavers, the Bison, the Yotes or Coyotes, the Jackrabbits or Bunnies, etc.  Even casual fans use the nicknames on a regular basis.  If you aren't hearing them you aren't paying attention.

 

Having more than 1 name to use for the team is one reason to have a nickname.  It is boring if sportswriters and announcers use the same name all of the time.  That is part of the reason they started using sports nicknames more than 100 years ago.  As a matter of fact, a lot of original nicknames were made up by sportswriters so they would have something different to use.  Nicknames are also important for marketing and branding.  They help build interest and affinity for a team.  They help sell merchandise.  They are used in chants and yells by fans, like "Sioux, Yeah, Yeah".  How does "North Dakota, Yeah, Yeah" sound?  Sports nicknames serve a lot of purposes, that's why every sports team has a nickname.

[jdub27]

 

Does the University of North Dakota really need a nickname? Do you really know the nicknames of other schools & does it really matter if they have a nickname. Most people don't know the nicknames anyhow. Ask your friends & family if they know the nicknames of the schools that we play in sports, especially hockey. I have been doing this & I am not surprised that people don't know the nicknames of the schools.

Without looking on the internet & not commenting, can you name the

...nicknames of the schools....

Denver

Colorado College

Omaha

Providence - they just won the frozen four & still didn't know

Ohio State

Penn State

St Cloud

Duluth

Miami of Ohio

RIT

Boston University

Boston College

Michigan State

Michigan

Mankato State

Michigan Tech

But if you ask they will know that it is Minnesota Gophers, Wisconsin Badgers & of course North Dakota Fighting Sioux.

Share this with others not from UND & you might be surprised at the results. Of course I might be surprised at the people who do know them. But my point is when we play these teams you don't ever hear anyone say we are playing the Bulldogs, no we are playing Duluth. So what is the real reason for a nickname? I would like someone to explain that to me.

 

 

So because you and a handful of casual fans you know don't know the nicknames to some randomly selected colleges UND should decide to not have a nickname?  Never mind that it helps differentiate UND when being discussed outside the region, helps increase brand awareness and marketing and will be the only real solution to actually moving on and help put the Fighting Sioux nickname controversy behind them.

[GDPritch]

 

Does the University of North Dakota really need a nickname? Do you really know the nicknames of other schools & does it really matter if they have a nickname. Most people don't know the nicknames anyhow. Ask your friends & family if they know the nicknames of the schools that we play in sports, especially hockey. I have been doing this & I am not surprised that people don't know the nicknames of the schools.

Without looking on the internet & not commenting, can you name the

...nicknames of the schools....

Denver

Colorado College

Omaha

Providence - they just won the frozen four & still didn't know

Ohio State

Penn State

St Cloud

Duluth

Miami of Ohio

RIT

Boston University

Boston College

Michigan State

Michigan

Mankato State

Michigan Tech

But if you ask they will know that it is Minnesota Gophers, Wisconsin Badgers & of course North Dakota Fighting Sioux.

Share this with others not from UND & you might be surprised at the results. Of course I might be surprised at the people who do know them. But my point is when we play these teams you don't ever hear anyone say we are playing the Bulldogs, no we are playing Duluth. So what is the real reason for a nickname? I would like someone to explain that to me.

 

Not to argue but while I may not refer to many of these schools sports teams by their nicknames I do know all of their nicknames save for RIT.  I'm a pretty big sports fan so I might not be your best "sample" so to speak. And I don't necessarily disagree with your assertion that perhaps UND doesn't even need a nickname.   

[Chewey]

Never mind that it helps differentiate UND when being discussed outside the region, helps increase brand awareness and marketing and will be the only real solution to actually moving on and help put the Fighting Sioux nickname controversy behind them.

If differentiation is what you're after, not having a nickname would differentiate UND just fine.  UND could even be a trend setter in that regard.  The latter part of your sentence is the real reason for the clarion call for a new nickname - any nickname.  As far as the school itself is concerned, brand awareness is developed and sustained by the strength of the programs it offers.  The brand is also based upon the perceived trustworthiness and credibility of those who run the place.  The aviation school, law school, medical school, etc. are still top notch regardless of whether the school has a nickname.  For athletics, trying to market a new nickname selected via some rash attempt to squelch and simply move past the former nickname would be wasted energy and could be counterproductive.  There would be marketing value in not selecting a nickname because of the message that the school had the very best nickname and logo in all of college athletics (and professional athletics, in my opinion) and held it and the Sioux people in such high reverence and esteem (exactly what the school used to say) that no other nickname would do.  Now, that is both a principled and powerful message that would sell and sell and sell.  And, it's consistent with what the school stated throughout.  And, it's not prohibited by the surrender agreement.  

[Old Time Hockey]

I am aware that ESPN does use the nicknames all the time, but is that the reason for us getting a nickname, so the announcers have something to call us. As I was watching the Frozen Four & they congratulated Providence they called them the Terriers. I know that it wasn't ESPN, but still it was wrong.

Also in making my point, other than the announcers, who uses the nicknames. Do you say that the Pioneers are coming to play hockey this weekend or do you say Denver. I don't hear very many people using the nickname of Northern Arizona when they come to play football or basketball here. I guess one of my points was people know us as North Dakota just as we know our teams by their names, not nicknames.

Welcome to the wrath of the nickname debate. Make a comment about maybe going without a nickname and BAM, you get mocked and ridiculed by 3-4 posters on this board almost immediately.

For what it's worth I knew every nickname on your list.

[TBR]

If differentiation is what you're after, not having a nickname would differentiate UND just fine.  UND could even be a trend setter in that regard.  The latter part of your sentence is the real reason for the clarion call for a new nickname - any nickname.  As far as the school itself is concerned, brand awareness is developed and sustained by the strength of the programs it offers.  The brand is also based upon the perceived trustworthiness and credibility of those who run the place.  The aviation school, law school, medical school, etc. are still top notch regardless of whether the school has a nickname.  For athletics, trying to market a new nickname selected via some rash attempt to squelch and simply move past the former nickname would be wasted energy and could be counterproductive.  There would be marketing value in not selecting a nickname because of the message that the school had the very best nickname and logo in all of college athletics (and professional athletics, in my opinion) and held it and the Sioux people in such high reverence and esteem (exactly what the school used to say) that no other nickname would do.  Now, that is both a principled and powerful message that would sell and sell and sell.  And, it's consistent with what the school stated throughout.  And, it's not prohibited by the surrender agreement.  

Very well stated. We don't have to assume identity with which we have no tradition. NCAA has already tacitly accepted no name by looking the other way during the three year "cool off" period. If need be just extend the cooling off period indefinately.

[Siouxperdouper]

Seminoles not hostile and abusive, Sioux hostile and abusive, WOW?  Enough said.

[Hayduke]

Not wanting a nickname reminds me of some little brat angry that they didn't get the sprinkles on the ice cream they wanted, so they lay on the floor kicking and screaming for attention.

Time for some "fans" to grow up.

[Ranger]

Not wanting a nickname reminds me of some little brat angry that they didn't get the sprinkles on the ice gcream they wanted, so they lay on the floor kicking and screaming for attention.

Time for some "fans" to grow up.

OK "dad/mom".

[Hayduke]

OK "dad/mom".

Damn straight. Go sit in timeout! lol

[darell1976]

Not wanting a nickname reminds me of some little brat angry that they didn't get the sprinkles on the ice cream they wanted, so they lay on the floor kicking and screaming for attention.

Time for some "fans" to grow up.

^^^^^this.

[Emerald joker]

Seminoles not hostile and abusive, Sioux hostile and abusive, WOW? Enough said.

Not arguing with you. So does that mean Wisconsin would play the Seminoles because the NC***HOLES says that name isnt hostile or abusive? The Sioux nickname wouldntv been hostile or abusive if the standing rock council wouldv let their people vote. I just love the thinking sense of some people

[Siouxphan27]

Not wanting a nickname reminds me of some little brat angry that they didn't get the sprinkles on the ice cream they wanted, so they lay on the floor kicking and screaming for attention.

Time for some "fans" to grow up.

I suppose next you will tell us Adults whining for a new nickname is not childish.

(Mother): Why are you crying little Timmy???

(sobs between words) "Because mommy, all the other little kids at school have nicknames and I don't! Waah waah waah!"

"I see.... It's ok little Timmy... You don't need a nickname to be recognized- a nickname doesn't define who you are--- your actions, your accomplishments, those are the things that people will notice about you, and will define who you are."

(Timmy, less sobbing): "really mommy? Thanks!"

(Hugs)

~The More You Know~

[Chewey]

This. ^^^^^^^^_

[jdub27]

If differentiation is what you're after, not having a nickname would differentiate UND just fine.  UND could even be a trend setter in that regard.  The latter part of your sentence is the real reason for the clarion call for a new nickname - any nickname.  As far as the school itself is concerned, brand awareness is developed and sustained by the strength of the programs it offers.  The brand is also based upon the perceived trustworthiness and credibility of those who run the place.  The aviation school, law school, medical school, etc. are still top notch regardless of whether the school has a nickname.  For athletics, trying to market a new nickname selected via some rash attempt to squelch and simply move past the former nickname would be wasted energy and could be counterproductive.  There would be marketing value in not selecting a nickname because of the message that the school had the very best nickname and logo in all of college athletics (and professional athletics, in my opinion) and held it and the Sioux people in such high reverence and esteem (exactly what the school used to say) that no other nickname would do.  Now, that is both a principled and powerful message that would sell and sell and sell.  And, it's consistent with what the school stated throughout.  And, it's not prohibited by the surrender agreement.  

 

I guess UND could just keep using the interlocking ND and continue to be confused with Notre Dame half of the time.  And I can't see how they would be a trend setter, how many schools do you actually think going without a nickname would be a good idea?  I do agree with you on the UND brand part though but giving the athletic department a nickname will only further that not hinder it.

 

My main point is that until UND moves onto a new nickname, there won't be closure and people will continue to cling onto the Fighting Sioux name.  The vast majority need something to focus on, without that they will continue to look to the past.

[scpa0305]

I suppose next you will tell us Adults whining for a new nickname is not childish.

(Mother): Why are you crying little Timmy???

(sobs between words) "Because mommy, all the other little kids at school have nicknames and I don't! Waah waah waah!"

"I see.... It's ok little Timmy... You don't need a nickname to be recognized- a nickname doesn't define who you are--- your actions, your accomplishments, those are the things that people will notice about you, and will define who you are."

(Timmy, less sobbing): "really mommy? Thanks!"

(Hugs)

~The More You Know~

Haha I like it.

[90siouxfan]

I guess UND could just keep using the interlocking ND and continue to be confused with Notre Dame half of the time.  And I can't see how they would be a trend setter, how many schools do you actually think going without a nickname would be a good idea?  I do agree with you on the UND brand part though but giving the athletic department a nickname will only further that not hinder it.

 

My main point is that until UND moves onto a new nickname, there won't be closure and people will continue to cling onto the Fighting Sioux name.  The vast majority need something to focus on, without that they will continue to look to the past.

You are making the assumption that the new nickname will make everyone move on.. I doubt it will

[jdub27]

You are making the assumption that the new nickname will make everyone move on.. I doubt it will

 

Everyone?  Not a chance, some will stubbornly continue to hang on to something that is never coming back and that is their prerogative I guess.  But for the large majority of people, it will make a big difference.  As long as there is nothing new to replace what was once there, the old name will continue to be used as a placeholder, which is exactly what a lot of the "no nickname" contingent is banking on and have been absolutely spot on thus far.

 

The issue continues to be a net negative for the University.  There is no possible measure where there are positives that outweigh negatives.  Because of that, I have a hard time understanding those that are against moving on.

[Chewey]

As long as there is nothing new to replace what was once there, the old name will continue to be used as a placeholder, which is exactly what a lot of the "no nickname" contingent is banking on and have been absolutely spot on thus far.

 

 

The teams are no longer using the Fighting Sioux nickname or logo; those were "hostile and abusive".  This was the issue.  Everyone's past that now.  Associations, remembrances, people's informal invocation of a former nickname, people's wearing of old jersey's at games, are not prohibited by the surrender agreement.  I think the NC00 is aware that it probably does not have a legal basis to demand UND select a new nickname when not having one does not violate the policy or the surrender agreement.  Add to this the fact that it has done nothing in vis-à-vis the "cooling off period" and permitted UND to stock up and sell off Fighting Sioux attire for almost 4 years post-drop dead date of the agreement and its position becomes even weaker.   

[darell1976]

The teams are no longer using the Fighting Sioux nickname or logo; those were "hostile and abusive".  This was the issue.  Everyone's past that now.  Associations, remembrances, people's informal invocation of a former nickname, people's wearing of old jersey's at games, are not prohibited by the surrender agreement.  I think the NC00 is aware that it probably does not have a legal basis to demand UND select a new nickname when not having one does not violate the policy or the surrender agreement.  Add to this the fact that it has done nothing in vis-à-vis the "cooling off period" and permitted UND to stock up and sell off Fighting Sioux attire for almost 4 years post-drop dead date of the agreement and its position becomes even weaker.   

So why can't UND hold on to the Fighting Sioux tradition and still have a new nickname...think Marquette!!  There are still fans dressed up like Indians but yet has the new nickname Golden Eagles. To some they will always be the Warriors and will hold on to everything Warrior like (gear, chants, etc.) but to appease some and especially the NCAA they will be the Golden Eagles and fans of Marquette can sport the Golden Eagle gear, chants, etc. Its the best of both worlds in an ugly subject called Political Correctness. Now UND can be the Fighting Sioux to some and to others they can be the UND XXXXX XXXXX. Both sides can chant go Sioux, and go XXXX, they both can wear Sioux gear, UND gear and XXXXX gear. As long as we all cheer for the University everyone wins.

[The Sicatoka]

If going without a nickname is next generation smart, the new trend, completely unique, the way to go, and so on and so on ... why hasn't a North American major sport professional sports team done it already. The way some describe the "no nickname" approach here those pro teams would make a fortune with no nickname.

[The Sicatoka]

As long as we all cheer for the University everyone wins.

You nailed it.

Many have been cheering for the Fighting Sioux, not the University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux.

With no more "Fighting Sioux" they don't realize who they've been cheering for is still there.

[Chewey]

So why can't UND hold on to the Fighting Sioux tradition and still have a new nickname...think Marquette!!  There are still fans dressed up like Indians but yet has the new nickname Golden Eagles. To some they will always be the Warriors and will hold on to everything Warrior like (gear, chants, etc.) but to appease some and especially the NCAA they will be the Golden Eagles and fans of Marquette can sport the Golden Eagle gear, chants, etc. Its the best of both worlds in an ugly subject called Political Correctness. Now UND can be the Fighting Sioux to some and to others they can be the UND XXXXX XXXXX. Both sides can chant go Sioux, and go XXXX, they both can wear Sioux gear, UND gear and XXXXX gear. As long as we all cheer for the University everyone wins.

Some fair points but the two situations are not similar.  I am not sure how Marquette came up with the name "Warriors" other than making the obvious reference to the indigenous people in the area.  I don't think a tribe, following sacred customs, etc. gave it to them.  I don't think there was a majority of indigenous people vocally supporting it when that particular controversy was addressed.  With UND, you had majorities of both Sioux tribes supporting retention, you had the SBoHE actively and not subtly lobbying for retirement irrespective of the 2009 vote, you had various people actively preventing a vote, you had an entire people silenced by administrative fiat (NCAA, SBoHE, UND).  Both involve an intrinsic wrong though I would say that the UND case is more insidious because of the outright disrespect shown the Sioux people and their customs by entities (UND/NCAA) claiming to respect and protect them.  In any case, the shrill absolutism and totalitarian tactics employed by those who espouse political correctness has reached such a level that it can't be met with passive acquiescence.  What's truly disappointing is that there are so many who are willing to do just that.  For purposes of convenience or expediency, they want to be indifferent or apathetic to the intrinsic wrong and just move past the whole matter. These sentiments find expression in comments made about the various marketing benefits to be realized by selecting a new nickname.  They also find expression in statements made about the NCAA's supposed strength of position regarding the surrender agreement.  The Vietnam War was an intrinsic wrong that was opposed by legitimate protest against greed and jingoism.  The sale of CDO's/derivatives that caused the 2008 financial collapse constituted an intrinsic wrong, especially given that not one person was convicted of wrongdoing.  What did we see?  Crickets chirping.  The levels to which political correctness has been taken constitutes an intrinsic wrong.  The irony or hypocrisy with all of this is that many of the same Vietnam War protesters participated in and benefitted from the sale of CDO's and many are now employing the same heavy-handed tactics via political correctness that they opposed decades ago. 

[Chewey]

If going without a nickname is next generation smart, the new trend, completely unique, the way to go, and so on and so on ... why hasn't a North American major sport professional sports team done it already. The way some describe the "no nickname" approach here those pro teams would make a fortune with no nickname.

Not an appropriate comparison.  On the one hand you have a monopolistic entity run by true believing academics inflicting its position and unassailable market hegemony against institutions with limited financial resources run by the same kind of true believing academics.  On the other hand, you have private enterprise where the people who run teams who are assaulted have the financial means to defend themselves.  Teams can move and you have major cities/states more than willing to build a Taj Mahal for any team willing to relocate.   They have not had to address this issue to the extent that it has infected the collegiate ranks and they have the money and the solidarity to prevent it from getting there.  The politically correct brown shirts are trying to ply the same script in the pro ranks as they have successfully employed in the collegiate ranks.  Attacking private franchises and billionaires who make money and attacking entire states and cities and national fan bases is a much more complex task than attacking individual, financially constrained institutions that have been infiltrated by academic lifers who are fellow politically correct deviants.  If some Commissioner of some league were to get the politically correct itch, teams would possibly spin off into other leagues a la the USFL. 

[darell1976]

If going without a nickname is next generation smart, the new trend, completely unique, the way to go, and so on and so on ... why hasn't a North American major sport professional sports team done it already. The way some describe the "no nickname" approach here those pro teams would make a fortune with no nickname.

Cleveland Browns