Building UND Athletics

[The Sicatoka]

Steps to Stopping Bleeding:

1. Stop the cause. Remove whatever instigated the wound.

2. Stop the bleeding. Apply pressure to cause wound to start to close and heal.

And I completely agree with UNDBIZ: the goodwill effects of the current course is very negative.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

REA has been a great boost to UND athletics. There was never a "promise" of a stated amount of money. I haven't seen a spread sheet for UND athletics but last time I saw an accurate summary UND FB wasn't losing $$. You may not be old enough to remember when UND FB supported hockey and a number of other sports. UND MBB and WBB have been profitable in the past. The Englestad gift guarantees UND hockey will be profitable and it should. The gift was also to help other UND sports. We did have some issues with the previous REA guy who was let go. He didn't want to do anything for UND athletics. (was an AC guy). Iwabucci guy, if you don't like other Sioux sports then go enjoy hockey. I was around when hockey needed FB and as athletes we had a great relationship with each other and had the same fan base. Hockey will need FB and other sports to be maximize chance of continued success. For those whinign about FB you can either be part of the problem or part of the solution. Donate $$ with a note to Kelly you want this program turned around now. Encourage all area kids to attend UND athletes or not. Don't need to see tax returns. No one is doing anything illegal and unless your name is Englestad it is none of our business. Just say thanks and enjoy.

Whoa Champ...I was responding to someone who was bitching that REA doesn't give enough money to UND athletics - Hello, its not owned by the University yet and therefore they have to manage maintenance and repair costs out of their own budget...I also believe in all the sports contributing to UND, but for the last few years the football program hasn't done much with its 60+ scholarship athletes to generate great interest in Football in GF and the Alerus profit/loss statements the last few years reflect how that has not only impacted UND's bottom line but that of the community as well. So get off the grander than thou kick because I've been to every other sports games at least once this year and I wouldn't be attending them if I was the one sport only fan you try to portray. By the way, I tailgate and attend each and every football game - so go shame someone else.

[FargoBison]

UND will be kicked out of the Big Sky then. That's why Denver can not get in the Big Sky; because the Big Sky demands it. If you want UND athletics to be more profitable, go all the way and drop everything.

Face it, we should be thankful for our unusual mix of sports. Bison fans mock it, but there football doesn't even run profitable. But all the Big Sky schools are envious of our revenue mix: that's exactly why we were invited. MAC schools can't generate the revenue we do except by student fees.

NDSU football isn't profitable....I beg to differ.

[mg2009]

If you don't think UND athletics is in a much better place than because of the Ralph and also the Betty then I'm not sure what kind of reality you live in. The tax returns for all of the entities are freely available to look through as they all operate as non-profits. Go ahead and point out where money is being wasted or withheld from UND. I've sat in on a presentation by Jody Hodgson a few years ago and they are open with the dollar amount directed back to UND along with other income that passes back to them. And at some point, UND will take over the building, meaning all the upgrades and maintenance that is being put back into the building instead of just going to UND will benefit UND.

What was the level of profit that was "promised" to UND vs what they are getting?

the money that went into the REA would have made a pretty good athletics endowment

[SiouxVolley]

NDSU football isn't profitable....I beg to differ.

“There is no FCS program that’s self-supporting, and my guess will ever be self-supporting. It’s just not the model that FCS will be able to withstand,” said Kyle Moats, the athletic director at Missouri State University.

[SiouxVolley]

the money that went into the REA would have made a pretty good athletics endowment

It is an endowment, but in a different form.

[82SiouxGuy]

NDSU football isn't profitable....I beg to differ.

You really don't need to beg.

[FargoBison]

“There is no FCS program that’s self-supporting, and my guess will ever be self-supporting. It’s just not the model that FCS will be able to withstand,” said Kyle Moats, the athletic director at Missouri State University.

I believe he was talking about entire athletic budgets...not individual programs. There are very few college athletic departments that can support themselves without subsidies.

[The Sicatoka]

<Howard Cosell voice>

It looks to these eyes like Volley used the jab to draw FargoBison into a counter-punch, and then Volley de-liv-ers with a solid rock, a straight right cross to the jaw.

</Howard Cosell voice>

[The Sicatoka]

Not to mince words too much, but when an AD says "program" do they mean "sport" or "department".

Most say department when they mean department, don't they? And to that point, most say "programs" (as in more than one sport), and never say "departments" (unless referencing the rest of their university).

[FargoBison]

Not to mince words too much, but when an AD says "program" do they mean "sport" or "department".

Most say department when they mean department, don't they? And to that point, most say "programs" (as in more than one sport), and never say "departments" (unless referencing the rest of their university).

The paragraph before that makes me think he was talking about the athletic departments of FCS schools. I doubt he would even know enough to comment on individual programs.

[SiouxVolley]

I believe he was talking about entire athletic budgets...not individual programs. There are very few college athletic departments that can support themselves without subsidies.

In 2011, NDSU took in $2,000,000 in ticket sales in the entire department. The football budget is way more then $2 mill, as the team costs easily nore than $1 mill in scholarship and R&B. Teammakers contributions have to be totally ascribed to football, and everything else has to be total loss leaders.

[FargoBison]

In 2011, NDSU took in $2,000,000 in ticket sales in the entire department. The football budget is more then $2 mill, as the team costs easily nore than $1 mill in scholarship and R&B.

In a world where teammakers and priority seating/tailgating doesn't exist...you might have a point.

[fightingsioux4life]

Whoa Champ...I was responding to someone who was bitching that REA doesn't give enough money to UND athletics - Hello, its not owned by the University yet and therefore they have to manage maintenance and repair costs out of their own budget...I also believe in all the sports contributing to UND, but for the last few years the football program hasn't done much with its 60+ scholarship athletes to generate great interest in Football in GF and the Alerus profit/loss statements the last few years reflect how that has not only impacted UND's bottom line but that of the community as well. So get off the grander than thou kick because I've been to every other sports games at least once this year and I wouldn't be attending them if I was the one sport only fan you try to portray. By the way, I tailgate and attend each and every football game - so go shame someone else.

Here we go with the whole "private entity" garbage again. I will state this one more time: REA exists to serve UND, UND does not exist to serve REA. Anything less than that is unacceptable and counter-productive to what we are trying to accomplish here.

[FargoBison]

In 2011, NDSU took in $2,000,000 in ticket sales in the entire department. The football budget is way more then $2 mill, as the team costs easily nore than $1 mill in scholarship and R&B. Teammakers contributions have to be totally ascribed to football, and everything else has to be total loss leaders.

NDSU's ticket sales in 2012 where $2.915 million...lets at least work with recent data.

[iramurphy]

Whoa Champ...I was responding to someone who was bitching that REA doesn't give enough money to UND athletics - Hello, its not owned by the University yet and therefore they have to manage maintenance and repair costs out of their own budget...I also believe in all the sports contributing to UND, but for the last few years the football program hasn't done much with its 60+ scholarship athletes to generate great interest in Football in GF and the Alerus profit/loss statements the last few years reflect how that has not only impacted UND's bottom line but that of the community as well. So get off the grander than thou kick because I've been to every other sports games at least once this year and I wouldn't be attending them if I was the one sport only fan you try to portray. By the way, I tailgate and attend each and every football game - so go shame someone else.

"Whoa" Sparky. Nothing here about anyone being grander than anyone.I'm not trying to portray anyone else as anything. Also not trying to pretend we don't need to move UND FB forward. Just ahve a different attitude and perspective. Maybe UND athletics shares their spread sheets with you but I wasn't aware UND FB was the financial "loser" you think is. Maybe it is but maybe it isn't. It shouldn't be hard to find out but don't forget to include the $$$$ donated to UND FB through the UND FB alumni to offset costs of scholarships and facilites. It is substantial. We also donate to other sports. We are all on the same team. Spread sheet should include that and I don't believe that is included in Alerus figures. Not pretending the poor attendence isn't a problem and I have no idea what the spread sheet for expenses and revenues at the Alerus is for UND FB but UND FB is very important to UND. I believe the recent drop in the Fr population is partly due to UND's FB, MBB, and WBB struggles and the fact that we have't had the same level of success in hockey. This is asituation that doesn't need finger pointing and in fighting.

[82SiouxGuy]

Here we go with the whole "private entity" garbage again. I will state this one more time: REA exists to serve UND, UND does not exist to serve REA. Anything less than that is unacceptable and counter-productive to what we are trying to accomplish here.

His point is that all costs and expenses have to come out of the funds before they transfer money to UND. They can't just transfer all revenues that come in. If UND owned the building then UND would pay those costs after the money was transferred. A facility is going to have costs and expenses no matter who owns it.

If you are that concerned about the funding, do your own homework instead of asking someone to spoon feed it to you. As has been stated on this thread, all of the information is available with a small amount of digging and a phone call or 2. You can see the Form 990's from past years at several different web sites. Google it. The forms are often 30+ pages long, you should be able to find 2011 for sure. You may find 2012, it takes a little while for them to get posted. 2013 may not have been filed yet if they operate on a budget year starting July 1 or somewhere else in the middle of the year. As a 501©3 non-profit, the 990 will provide a lot of the information, although not always a lot of detail. The IRS is very protective of the 501©3 status so 990's are pretty accurate. Call REA and talk to Jody or an accountant. Call the athletic department. And as a part of the state government, UND will provide a great deal of information to the public. Ranting about how REA is screwing UND on an internet bulletin board is just wasting people's time.

[Hammersmith]

Not to mince words too much, but when an AD says "program" do they mean "sport" or "department".

Most say department when they mean department, don't they? And to that point, most say "programs" (as in more than one sport), and never say "departments" (unless referencing the rest of their university).

The first sentence of the article is:

North Dakota State University’s athletics program needs millions of dollars each year from the school and its students to get by.

The rest of the article continues to use the word program to describe the entire athletics department, not individual sports. The Missouri State AD uses the term FCS not to refer to football, but as a way to describe one of the three broad groups within DI(FBS, FCS, & no-FB).

How about this quote that comes a couple paragraphs before the MSU quote:

The 74 other programs like NDSU and UND – Division I schools with teams in the smaller Football Championship Subdivision – that reported information to USA Today received nearly 70 percent of their revenues from their school and students, on average. Only four schools relied less on subsidies than NDSU. UND was just behind, at No. 7.

Again, the article consistently uses the term program to refer to an entire athletic department. When the article talks about a particular sport or team, it makes note of it in a way that separates it from the way the article uses the term program.

The Minnesota Golden Gophers athletics program, with its Big Ten football squad, pulled in $35.8 million last year through rights and licensing, according to the USA Today study.

So in this instance, program refers to athletic department. That may not hold true for future articles, but that is the way this author decided to go on this day.

God am I bored today.

[homer]

My opinion both schools are doing pretty well.

UND has some long term room to grow with football both attendance (roughly 4,000) and ticket prices (if the product on the field warrants). Also, men's basketball, women's basketball and volleyball. Would be minimal impact however. I believe hockey is maxed out and I don't know if you want to put any more on students.

FU football is maxed out. I don't see them being able to raise ticket prices much more than current prices. They can raise student fees and will have some potential once their new basketball facility is complete, however similar to UND impact with these sports would be minimal.

My take away from the article is both are doing well when compared to their piers.

[Shawn-O]

It is an endowment, but in a different form.

A captively held endowment.

[82SiouxGuy]

A captively held endowment.

Because of the North Dakota Legislature. Remember, they wouldn't accept the donation of the building if it was going to cost any money. They wanted to have a track record showing it would pay for itself, including long term upgrades. That's where the delay comes from in terms of turning the building over to UND.

[FSSD]

My opinion both schools are doing pretty well.

UND has some long term room to grow with football both attendance (roughly 4,000) and ticket prices (if the product on the field warrants). Also, men's basketball, women's basketball and volleyball. Would be minimal impact however. I believe hockey is maxed out and I don't know if you want to put any more on students.

FU football is maxed out. I don't see them being able to raise ticket prices much more than current prices. They can raise student fees and will have some potential once their new basketball facility is complete, however similar to UND impact with these sports would be minimal.

My take away from the article is both are doing well when compared to their piers.

Agreed compared to all the other FCS schools both schools are doing very well. I do think the direct comparison between the two schools is very flawed due to how both school comply with Title IX and conference requirements. UND had to add sports to join the Big Sky. The Summit League is much more forgiving - that is why Denver is in the Summit League.

[SIOUXFAN97]

which line from the 990 form would tell me how much rea gives to the athletic department?? line 19 or 22 or none of the above?

http://nccsdataweb.urban.org/orgs/profile/141846178#forms

[82SiouxGuy]

which line from the 990 form would tell me how much rea gives to the athletic department?? line 19 or 22 or none of the above?

http://nccsdataweb.u...141846178#forms

1) I don't think that is the 990 for the full organization. It seems to only be part of the organization. My guess is that they have more than 1 501©3 set up. It might be the 990 for the Betty, but that is just a guess.

2) You probably have to read through any explanations. I doubt that it's as simple as picking out 1 of those lines. Sometimes the answer is in one of the schedules later in the document.

3) You may need to talk with someone at REA to get the explanation or break out the number.

[82SiouxGuy]

One other thing to remember is that cash may not be the only thing that REA provides for UND. There is a value to services provided. If REA provides services at lower cost than UND would be able to provide for themselves (or no cost), there is a value to that because it is money that UND doesn't have to spend. It is often called an in-kind donation. That value is also probably mixed into the 990 somewhere. That's another reason you either need to read the attachments and schedules very thoroughly or get an explanation from someone at REA.