How will you vote June 12th?

[82SiouxGuy]

These jobs pay around 100K & the drilling & service work are here to stay in our lifetime - Housing & Cities will catch up - & there is 3 known formations only one barely being touched

And if the price of oil goes down to $40 per barrel it won't matter because the cost will be too high to drill. Or if other things change and the demand for oil goes down. Things look good out there, but there are no guarantees that they will continue. It is far too early in the process to know what will happen long term.

[darell1976]

You compare "Redskins", "Satans", or "Wops" with Fighting Sioux - we know where you always stood

The thing about those 3 names is the schools that were associated with those names still live on, and will always live on. Just like UND will live on without the Fighting Sioux just like they did from 1883-1930.

[The Sicatoka]

You compare "Redskins", "Satans", or "Wops" with Fighting Sioux - we know where you always stood

Seriously? Go back on this board to the 2000 to 2007 timeframe. I'm as staunch for the moniker as it comes. (Back then fourwindsboy wasn't so fond of me.)

Then came the settlement and the unwinnable war. And I started to see and realize the real price that sanctions would bring.

I guess I'm right there with Dave Hakstol and Tim O'Keefe. I'll ride with them.

[UNDColorado]

Ask someone who's lived in north Grand Forks, Devils Lake, or Wahpeton less than 10 years what the moniker of the local high school is.

You'll hear "Knights", "Firebirds", or "Huskies". They've never heard of "Redskins", "Satans", or "Wops".

That's also what the influx of people in the west will bring.

I graduated from Devils Lake High in 03; that year in football we couldn't wear our pants with the logo and at the state hockey tournament we were just Devils Lake Then of course I choose a university with a nickname issue. This crap is fit for the big screen lol

You are right btw, my parents and brother live there and everyone has moved on. Just like the Sioux logo I still love my retired high school hockey logo.

[bincitysioux]

Lets play a little

Most of ND Hates eastern ND (Always have) if they don't hate they really dislike or could care less about it

In 10 to 20 yrs Bismarck & Minot are going to be bigger & wealthier than GF - Maybe even Dickinson & Williston

Not just the oil Rich but the high paying Jobs that could last 30 40 or more yrs

Farming & Beets are not going to keep pace

For sometime it will be envy like GF has with fargo - But you have no idea how the tide is going to change

I'm not following your correlation, but even if I could, as usual it is mostly wrong.

Agriculture has been, currently is, and always will be the engine that drives North Dakota's economic bus. The development of the oil patch is like a turbo-charger that was recently added to that engine to boost performance. Someday, the bearings on that turbo will fail, and it will either be replaced with something else or simply removed, leaving the engine to all the work itself.

[bincitysioux]

Ask someone who's lived in north Grand Forks, Devils Lake, or Wahpeton less than 10 years what the moniker of the local high school is.

You'll hear "Knights", "Firebirds", or "Huskies". They've never heard of "Redskins", "Satans", or "Wops".

That's also what the influx of people in the west will bring.

If there was ever possibly a better sports nickname in the state of North Dakota that the Fighting Sioux, it was the Satans. Man that was cool.............

[UND92,96]

There is apparently going to be an article in tomorrow's Forum regarding the results of a poll commissioned by Forum Communications of 500 likely voters on this particular issue. Today's article dealt with the poll results as they pertained to Measure 2. Should be quite interesting. http://www.thedickin...ticle/id/58042/

— Forum Communications Co. commissioned Essman/Research, an independent research firm in Des Moines, Iowa, to poll North Dakota residents on two initiated measures on the ballot June 12 and the evolving matchups in the U.S. House and Senate races.

— The poll gathered information from 500 likely voters in the state between May 3 and May 8. Of that sample, 392 surveys were completed on land line telephones, and 108 surveys were completed on cell phones.

— The confidence level of the poll is 95 percent, with a margin of error of plus or minus 4.3 percent.

— Essman developed the survey and the random sample and conducted the polling.

Coming up

— Wednesday: Measure 4, the Fighting Sioux nickname issue.

— Thursday: The U.S. Senate race.

— Friday: The U.S. House race.

[UND92,96]

Poll shows support for retiring Fighting Sioux name: http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/236548/

[crb1]

Regardless of how you feel about the nickname and logo it has gotten to the point where UND needs to be able to retire the nickname for the better of the university and students. It pains me to vote Yes but I will not be a willing participant in the death kneel of UND sports.

[The Sicatoka]

" ... the following members of the University of North Dakota Sioux Booster Board urge North Dakota residents to vote “yes” on Measure 4 and allow the Fighting Sioux nickname to be retired with dignity."

(signed)

Lowell Schweigert, president; Charlie Bridgeford, Dave Delisle, Dave Duncan, Gary Euren, Sue Hafner, Marilyn Hagerty, Rex Huss, Matt Jacobson, Pete Kuhn, Oly Olafson, Al Pearson and John Schmisek.

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/361032/group/Opinion/

[fightingsioux4life]

" ... the following members of the University of North Dakota Sioux Booster Board urge North Dakota residents to vote “yes” on Measure 4 and allow the Fighting Sioux nickname to be retired with dignity."

(signed)

Lowell Schweigert, president; Charlie Bridgeford, Dave Delisle, Dave Duncan, Gary Euren, Sue Hafner, Marilyn Hagerty, Rex Huss, Matt Jacobson, Pete Kuhn, Oly Olafson, Al Pearson and John Schmisek.

Wow, what a bunch of granola-eating, politically correct hippies! It's plainly obvious that they have had it in for the nickname and logo all along, so we should just shun them and vote no on June 12th, right? Only if you believe the irrational rantings of the "nickname at all costs" crowd, led by the "incomparable" Rob Port.

If you want your sanity intact, please get out and vote YES on Measure 4 so we can move on and build a successful Division I athletic department.

[UNDBIZ]

Well, now wait a second.......

http://www.inforum.c...5/group/Sports/

Looks like they even got this little tidbit in the article on the UND-NDSU football series resuming.....

Taylor said both sides talked a few months ago on a few occasions, but communication stopped until UND could get its nickname situation resolved, he said.

[Chewey]

Poll shows support for retiring Fighting Sioux name: http://www.grandfork...icle/id/236548/

Very credible poll. The same one that predicted Pomeroy would slam Berg. The same one that only polled 12 people in Sioux County. Would not put too much faith in it.

[UNDBIZ]

Very credible poll. The same one that predicted Pomeroy would slam Berg. The same one that only polled 12 people in Sioux County. Would not put too much faith in it.

If you kept on reading the SAB post, you would've seen that it wasn't a Forum poll that showed Pomeroy beating Berg, it was a Democrat poll published in the Forum. This one polled 25 people in Sioux County and acknowledged that it was difficult to get in contact with many more. It's a poll, they aren't supposed to be exact, perhaps you should've taken a statistics course while at UND. Don't get your panties in too big of a bunch. What I got from the poll is that it could still go either way....

[82SiouxGuy]

Very credible poll. The same one that predicted Pomeroy would slam Berg. The same one that only polled 12 people in Sioux County. Would not put too much faith in it.

I put even less faith in the opinion of Reed Soderstrom and others that say the sanctions won't damage UND. They have absolutely no basis of fact for those opinions.

[UNDBIZ]

I put even less faith in the opinion of Reed Soderstrom and others that say the sanctions won't damage UND. They have absolutely no basis of fact for those opinions.

But.... but..... the hockey team was under sanctions..... and..... and even though..... even though there are no home NCAA playoff games for NCAA hockey...... the sanctions which don't allow home playoff games didn't seem to hurt the hockey team..... therefore..... we can conclude the sanctions wouldn't hurt any sport at UND...... right??

[82SiouxGuy]

But.... but..... the hockey team was under sanctions..... and..... and even though..... even though there are no home NCAA playoff games for NCAA hockey...... the sanctions which don't allow home playoff games didn't seem to hurt the hockey team..... therefore..... we can conclude the sanctions wouldn't hurt any sport at UND...... right??

The most damaging of all sanctions is not being able to wear the logo and nickname on uniforms for the playoffs, because then people can't see what a magical, wonderful logo it really is.

[yababy8]

The most damaging of all sanctions is not being able to wear the logo and nickname on uniforms for the playoffs, because then people can't see what a magical, wonderful logo it really is.

Previously the most amazing thing to me in this whole name debacle was how the powers that be both locally and nationally missed the hypocrisy and racism that pervaded the NCAA's Native American Nickname policy.

Then I was even more shocked at how the NCAA could have so little regard for the voice and wishes of the Sioux Tribe.

..The lack of appropriate and objective nation media coverage did not shock me one bit. Although it did vex me..

Now I have become every more amazed at how, through relentless propaganda the NCAA with the help of their good old pal- the press, have effectively taken an utterly awesome nickname (known across the nation and beyond-ya know the value of brand identification-UNDBIZ might have taken that class at UND, or how about named the best Jersey in all of North American hockey, I could continue...) and made its own fans turn on it to the point of belittling it's significance?? Baffling and sad!!

You all like to quote Hak and how he said what he said about it being time to retire the name because he sees eminent cost to the University. In the same interview he clearly stated his feelings about the name by asking the press to refer to his previous statements about the name and its value and his passion for it. You all remember than press conference right??

So I guess I would ask all of you 'kill the name' folks that, while you are campaigning for the death of the name through the vote of the people who love it, show some respect for the name and for what it truly is and what it has meant to so many.. I for one, would appreciate that..

[82SiouxGuy]

Previously the most amazing thing to me in this whole name debacle was how the powers that be both locally and nationally missed the hypocrisy and racism that pervaded the NCAA's Native American Nickname policy.

Then I was even more shocked at how the NCAA could have so little regard for the voice and wishes of the Sioux Tribe.

..The lack of appropriate and objective nation media coverage did not shock me one bit. Although it did vex me..

Now I have become every more amazed at how, through relentless propaganda the NCAA with the help of their good old pal- the press, have effectively taken an utterly awesome nickname (known across the nation and beyond-ya know the value of brand identification-UNDBIZ might have taken that class at UND, or how about named the best Jersey in all of North American hockey, I could continue...) and made its own fans turn on it to the point of belittling it's significance?? Baffling and sad!!

You all like to quote Hak and how he said what he said about it being time to retire the name because he sees eminent cost to the University. In the same interview he clearly stated his feelings about the name by asking the press to refer to his previous statements about the name and its value and his passion for it. You all remember than press conference right??

So I guess I would ask all of you 'kill the name' folks that, while you are campaigning for the death of the name through the vote of the people who love it, show some respect for the name and for what it truly is and what it has meant to so many.. I for one, would appreciate that..

It is a great nickname and logo. But it isn't magical. It isn't irreplaceable. It can't cure cancer. It is a college sports nickname and logo, nothing more and nothing less. The attitude that the nickname and logo are more important than the University is what we are making fun of (at least what I was making fun of since I don't want to speak for everyone else). That's what the smileys were there for, to make fun of the idea that the logo is somehow magical. And to make fun of the idea that the sanctions are not going to cause damage to the athletic department. The University and the athletic department are the entities that are most affected by the NCAA sanctions (not the fans), and they are what needs protecting the most. The sanctions will slowly erode the entire athletic department and every sport on campus. You get nickname-at-all-cost group to stop spreading the lies about the sanctions not affecting the University and I'm pretty sure that no one would be making any jokes related to the logo being somehow magical.

[UNDBIZ]

Previously the most amazing thing to me in this whole name debacle was how the powers that be both locally and nationally missed the hypocrisy and racism that pervaded the NCAA's Native American Nickname policy.

Then I was even more shocked at how the NCAA could have so little regard for the voice and wishes of the Sioux Tribe.

..The lack of appropriate and objective nation media coverage did not shock me one bit. Although it did vex me..

Now I have become every more amazed at how, through relentless propaganda the NCAA with the help of their good old pal- the press, have effectively taken an utterly awesome nickname (known across the nation and beyond-ya know the value of brand identification-UNDBIZ might have taken that class at UND, or how about named the best Jersey in all of North American hockey, I could continue...) and made its own fans turn on it to the point of belittling it's significance?? Baffling and sad!!

You all like to quote Hak and how he said what he said about it being time to retire the name because he sees eminent cost to the University. In the same interview he clearly stated his feelings about the name by asking the press to refer to his previous statements about the name and its value and his passion for it. You all remember than press conference right??

So I guess I would ask all of you 'kill the name' folks that, while you are campaigning for the death of the name through the vote of the people who love it, show some respect for the name and for what it truly is and what it has meant to so many.. I for one, would appreciate that..

I love the name, I respect the name, I simply don't have much respect any more for people who would knowingly destroy the University that name currently represents. It's a matter of priorities and the nickname at all costs crowd appears confused as to what is actually more important. UND can survive without the logo, but the logo can't survive without UND.

Oh and no i did not take a brand identification course (to be honest the Marketing program at UND is a bit of a joke). I did take several classes with UND athletes though and wouldn't you know it, their opinion is the same as mine is now. 3 years ago I was one of you people, calling for Pres. Kelley's head and the rest of the SBHE with him. I've come to realize that North Dakota is not going to beat the NCAA in this fight, and I refuse to cut off my nose to spite my face. Keeping the name does no harm to the NCAA, it only hurts UND, its students, and its athletes. You will not find a post made by me "bad-mouthing" the name, because I love the name..... but some things are more important.

[The Sicatoka]

Read my signature. That's where I'm at.

[sioux rube]

Read my signature. That's where I'm at.

I'm with ya.

[82SiouxGuy]

This is so much bigger than UND sports (or any kind of sports for that matter). This is about fighting back against racist PC hatred.

It's a sports nickname. The issue is college sports. There is no issue, and definitely no nickname, if you take away the sports.

[yababy8]

It is a great nickname and logo. But it isn't magical. It isn't irreplaceable. It can't cure cancer. It is a college sports nickname and logo, nothing more and nothing less. The attitude that the nickname and logo are more important than the University is what we are making fun of (at least what I was making fun of since I don't want to speak for everyone else). That's what the smileys were there for, to make fun of the idea that the logo is somehow magical. And to make fun of the idea that the sanctions are not going to cause damage to the athletic department. The University and the athletic department are the entities that are most affected by the NCAA sanctions (not the fans), and they are what needs protecting the most. The sanctions will slowly erode the entire athletic department and every sport on campus. You get nickname-at-all-cost group to stop spreading the lies about the sanctions not affecting the University and I'm pretty sure that no one would be making any jokes related to the logo being somehow magical.

I get where the kill the nickname crowd is coming from. I understand it poses a threat to the Athletic future of North Dakota. I don't judge people harshly at this point for such positions..

I do however believe that the preponderance of rhetoric is currently coming from the kill the name side. Save the name opponents speak in absolutes when they should be speaking from a point of speculation. That doesn't mean they are wrong. It just means that they don't KNOW the future. Here are a few examples:

1. No one can say they know that the Big Sky will boot UND if we vote to keep the name. If I had to choose in a forced bet of a million dollars having to pick between the Big Sky booting us and them letting us stay following a keep the name vote, I would pick that they wouldn't boot us. They know the power of words and how cheap they are to speak and suggesting it is a possibility and actually doing it are very different things. Note: I'm not saying I'm highly confident they won't but there is no question which way I would put my money on that one..

2. Kill the nicknamers are interpreting others schools statements regarding "not scheduling until the name issue as resolved" as meaning that if we keep the name we are going to be blackballed from competition with their university forever. I feel that if we keep the name only through poor diplomacy would these schools actually bail on us long term. I may be wrong, but we do not know. We don't so don't try to say we do. You don't need to debate this with me, I already said you might be right. Did I mention that you don't know.

3. No one is considering the fact that keeping the name keeps us in the fight. The Federal judge that threw out the lacking attempt by the Spirit Lake lawyers suit commented that a few of the grounds in that case had merit but would need to be brought by UND. Well I hear no one talking about that. And this leads me to number 4;

4. ..Why don't we have an honest discussion about what the next steps that should be taken by UND, the SBofHE, the Sioux Tribe and the government of North Dakota IF the name resolution results in favor of keeping the name (next steps other than/beyond fighting the resolution itself). This is something that has never happened since the days of the settlement(if you want to call that a fight). At least it has not been transparent. I read a post today from fightingsioux4life where he passionately advocated for college hockey to fight against the Canadian Major Junior league and dispel their rhetoric regarding their superiority and I loved his post. It had passion, ownership and will, yya know the things that we were all tought to value in this country. I can say that I have never seen anything like that from the leadership groups in this fight( with the exception of the Sioux people themselves). I think we should all vote No and keep the name and send a big fat message to the leadership players, Kelley, Faison, SBofHE the Governor, Congress, and some worthy Attorney General to get with the Sioux people and devise a strategy. I know you will say we are beyond that, we have no cards becuase of the settlement and we can't because it will hurt the university, but can't never did a god damm thing and I would be very interested in a vote of the people forcing these players to actually do it..

Do you all think they would??

More Kill the name rhetoric:

5. Kill the namers say that it will diminish UND athletics if we keep the name but I don't hear them consider the devaluation of our program if we lose the Sioux name. I would say that 90% of the cost here will be in the hockey program. It is a Nationally known program and the Sioux name is a major part of that. Anyone remember how Blais felt about the nickname. I know, you will say Blais would probably not support keeping the name now. That's not my point. My point is what he said and that is still true. I'm pretty confident Blais would not redefine his value of the name itself? Losing the name will cost the hockey program the only question is how much. And yes I know you all believe that keeping it will cost more. I get it.

Just don't try to spin it by denying that killing the name will have NO COST. And many on here have been doing just that by saying it is just a nickname and the program is the atheletes not a nickname. That is not honest. The Sioux nickname carries a lot of wieght and goodwill and losing it will have an effect, period!

.

6. Kill the namers constantly compare our situation with that of South Carolina's. While they do this they never speak of the significant difference between the two. South Carolina's flag is an affront to Black People as it represents a historic support of slavery against Black people. The day we should be comparing South Carolina to us is the day Black organizations sue the NCAA to keep the flag. Note: I realize that it is another school under sanctions, I get that. But to compare the two marginalizes the differences and in those differences lies the greatest hypocrisy spewed by the NCAA. So at least if you are going to compare the two and marginalize that which we should NOT want marginalized, concede the truth in it for Pete's sake..

7. The kill the name group has been doing quite a bit of whining on this forum regarding name calling and person attacks. While I have not been posting much lately I have been reading everything and here is my interpretation for what it is worth. Kill the namers are lambasting the few people brave enough to throw out posts in support of the name. The personal put downs are tilted way in the direction of the Kill the namers. It seems to me to be almost like a mob mentality where people are starting to feel pretty comfortable degrading those who support keeping the name. I kinda feel like I'm watching the accused when I see the responses to a post by Davek or Fetch..

And I'm very curious as to why a few of the Kill the namers are always so close to their keyboard that they respond day and night to any keep the name post in a matter of minutes.. I know goon, that is a conspiracy theory no one is working against the name, they are all honest Sioux fans. Kelly and Fiason did everything they could to save it. Flat out exhausted themselves for years.

8. on that note, anyone every wonder why you have never heard Fiason say during one of his media sessions that while he was told by any of these "we're not scheduling you" universities how he tried really hard to convince them to not take that position because UND believed very strongly in keeping the name because EVERY vote, survey, poll ever done clearly showed that the Sioux people wanted UND to keep the name. We should ask the AD's of all of the Big Sky members how tall he stood on a soap box and fist pounded to support UND through this battle.

9. Kill the namers have taken to propaganda language rhetoric to spin their position. "nickname at all cost crowd" I've addressed this one before. It reminds me of our media, "access of evil" kind of stuff meant to evoke a negative image. Very impressive to use against your fellow North Dakotans. It inspired me to come up with "kill the namers" ya like it?? What you want UND to stop using the name- that kills it right?? How does that feel??? Murderers?? <---wow this is kinda fun and catchy, now I see where you all get it..

Once again, I will reiterate, "I understand the Kill the nickname position. It has rational to it. It has sense to it. BUT to quote, an oft repeated Kill the nickname phrase right back back at ya all,

"Quite drinking the coolaid!@"

and most importantly, respect the SIOUX name for what it is. It is has more value and meaning to the state of North Dakota and most of UND's current student body and US ALUMNI" than even just a great name qualifies..

[82SiouxGuy]

I'm not going to go through your post item by item. We have covered most of them multiple times. I will concentrate on 3 and 4, because they are the most important. Yes, the judge said that a few of the items MAY have merit (he didn't say they would win, just that they could be worth discussing), but only if brought by UND. What he failed to point out is that UND CAN'T sue the NCAA again regarding this issue. That is also part of the settlement. Neither side can sue the other on this issue unless the other side violates the settlement agreement. And when I say UND, that also includes the State Board of Higher Education and the State of North Dakota. So even if the issues actually would have merit, no one that actually has standing would be able to explore the issues in a court of law. There are no more lawsuits against the NCAA.

Because UND and the state can't sue, there are only 2 possible outcomes at this point. If the nickname is kept, UND stays on sanctions. If the nickname can be retired, then UND can get off sanctions. That is it. The NCAA has repeatedly said that they won't vary from the settlement. And the point of discussing the South Carolina situation is that it proves that the NCAA will keep the sanctions in place long term. They aren't going to back off. Nothing that UND, the state or the tribes will do from this point forward will change the 2 options.

We have discussed the fact that UND loses either way on this issue, so don't even try to say that we haven't. It just isn't part of every discussion because that is understood. Losing the nickname is definitely a loss. But being under the sanctions long term is a bigger loss. We tried pointing that out and were told that the sanctions were "manageable" or "negligible" or "not real". Then we were told that nothing was worth losing the nickname, that allowing the athletic department to be destroyed was a small price to pay for keeping the nickname. We had lifelong UND fans and alumni called racists and Nazis because we weren't willing to sacrifice the athletic department to keep a nickname. We were told that people that had decided it was time to retire the nickname had been brainwashed, or were sellouts, etc. And this has gone on for a long time. Do you really wonder why people have pushed back? Especially when they are trying to protect an institution that they love? The extreme people on the side of keeping the name have not been civil for months. I think that people have been quite restrained with their responses to some of the garbage that has been thrown out.

We are at the bottom line. There is no middle ground left. That is why the discussion has reached the point we are at now.