ND Supreme Court Rules against the NDSBoHE

[UNDBIZ]

Where is this big movement from NDSU supporters? All of the NDSU supporters I know that would vote "yes" wouldn't be doing it to hurt UND, they'd be doing it because they think the NCAA is wrong and want UND to keep the name. Those are the minds UND needs to change.

I don't know a single NDSU fan that is planning to vote for this to hurt UND.

But hurting UND is exactly what they would be doing if they vote to keep the law. By threatening sanctions against the entire state, it allows the Bison faithful to understand how bad the sanctions would actually be. If this was the case, I doubt any of them would stick to their guns and vote to keep the name because "they think the NCAA is wrong."

[Siouxperfan7]

Where is this big movement from NDSU supporters? All of the NDSU supporters I know that would vote "yes" wouldn't be doing it to hurt UND, they'd be doing it because they think the NCAA is wrong and want UND to keep the name. Those are the minds UND needs to change.

I don't know a single NDSU fan that is planning to vote for this to hurt UND.

Then you don't know many NDSU fans!!! There are plenty of NDSU fans that are loving this whole train wreck between UND and the NCAA!! They relish in it!! There is a large group of Bison fans that would love to see UND athletics crumble to the ground. Such a result would only strengthen NDSU's athletic department. Trust me, they are out there.

[homer]

The NCAA has a pretty clear policy on Native American nicknames and nowhere does it say that an entire state will be punished because of one school. The whole thing is designed to punish schools that are not in compliance, not states.

Also the SC ban allows for any NCAA postseason game that was earned on merit to still take place in SC. Only predetermined tournaments(like NCAA basketball regionals) are banned. I really doubt the NCAA would be interested in placing the kind of sanctions on ND schools that have been talked about, specifically postseason games earned on merit.

I don't see the NCAA expanding the punishment to the entire state cause I don't think they want to drag anyone else into this. But as others have mentioned, when you have a school who is trying to retire the name and get off the list but isn't being allowed to do that by the state, maybe the entire state should fall under the same sanctions. Like I said though, I am not holding my breath that this happens nor do I want it to happen.

[FargoBison]

But hurting UND is exactly what they would be doing if they vote to keep the law. By threatening sanctions against the entire state, it allows the Bison faithful to understand how bad the sanctions would actually be. If this was the case, I doubt any of them would stick to their guns and vote to keep the name because "they think the NCAA is wrong."

Yes but that isn't their intent in voting "yes", these people I'm talking about are NDSU supporters who like UND hockey(yes I know plenty of them). I still don't think these people quite grasp just what this all means for the university and the entire athletic department, they just aren't that involved with anything associated with UND outside of hockey.

[ScottM]

Where is this big movement from NDSU supporters? All of the NDSU supporters I know that would vote "yes" wouldn't be doing it to hurt UND, they'd be doing it because they think the NCAA is wrong and want UND to keep the name. Those are the minds UND needs to change. I don't know a single NDSU fan that is planning to vote for this to hurt UND.

They know damn well the sanctions are designed to hurt UND, otherwise the hockey team wouldn't have played in generic unis. Any vote, for any reason, in favor of UND keeping the Sioux moniker is really aimed at hurting UND, not some insipid notion of "freedom of speech" or the "NC$$ is 'wrong'". Their motivations in voting are irrelevant.

If UND is to be saddled with the Sioux moniker as a state school, the entire state should share in that joy.

[FargoBison]

Then you don't know many NDSU fans!!! There are plenty of NDSU fans that are loving this whole train wreck between UND and the NCAA!! They relish in it!! There is a large group of Bison fans that would love to see UND athletics crumble to the ground. Such a result would only strengthen NDSU's athletic department. Trust me, they are out there.

I know tons of NDSU fans, the group of people you are talking about is a very tiny segment of the voting population. Some of you have been reading too much Bisonville.

[UNDBIZ]

Yes but that isn't their intent in voting "yes", these people I'm talking about are NDSU supporters who like UND hockey(yes I know plenty of them). I still don't think these people quite grasp just what this all means for the university and the entire athletic department, they just aren't that involved with anything associated with UND outside of hockey.

The intent doesn't matter, the result does. In regards to the NDSU folks not being educated on the extent of the sanctions, I see the expansion of the sanctions to include our sister to the south as a great method of educating them. Again however, I see little to no chance of the NCAA expanding the sanctions to Moo U.

[Gothmog]

I crizicize any citizen who wishes to destroy the athletic department of my favorite school. Whether they attend UND, NDSU, Mary, Minot State, or even Lake Region

But again, you don't actually know, and never will know, that that has happened on a scale large enough to affect the outcome. You're just lashing out at a rival.

BTW - I don't live in ND anymore. If I did, I'd definitely vote no.

[Gothmog]

They are not punished for displaying the South Carolina flag on campus. South Carolina has a Confederate flag that was initially flown over the State Capital building. When the NCAA started to object to that the state moved the flag to a Soldiers Memorial dedicated to the veterans of the Confederate Army. The memorial is part of the State Capital grounds. No Confederate flags are flown on college campuses (at least officially) and South Carolina does not incorporate the Confederate flag in their state flag like Mississippi does. Edit: Flying the Confederate flag over the memorial has been put into state law and needs a super majority to be removed from state law.

Well, thanks for the education. But It doesn't really change the original point. The NCAA has no reason to expand the sanctions.

[johnson]

UND and its supporters fought everyone and everything they could to keep the name well after the deadline passed. All the while everyone on the outside were trying to explain that the constant fight wouldn't end well. Many of you on this board were still fighting this issue during the last legislative session. You sent emails supporting the bill to your representatives and were also high fiving Al Carlson early on.

Now instead of taking care of business before it reached the ridiculous stage of the legislature getting involved you have the people of ND deciding for UND. If you would've opened your eyes for a minute before it reached the Al Carlson level of stupidity none of this would be happening right now. I believe many of you on this board wanted to choke the life out of Mac Schneider when the SBoHE voted to drop the nickname at a board meeting and UND could've taken care of the issue before that vote even took place. This is absolutely nobody else's fault but UND's. To suggest punishing every other NCAA member in the State of ND is just another closed minded temper tantrum that got UND in this mess in the first place. Take responsibility for your own actions which includes the very start of this fight years ago.

[Hayduke]

Even if does seem far fetched you do know its spreading all over Bisonland like a wildfire. If not people wouldn't talk about it. People are scared at the SU and that is why some are thinking of ways to discredit it. If this reaches Gene Taylor or Craig Bohl and most likely with the internet and word of mouth it may I bet some phone calls will be made to the NCAA to see if they really would do this. IMO as good as NDSU was in their title run...home field helped them greatly. Imagine playing at JMU, and GSU.

Honestly, I don't think the NCAA would do it.

But...

What if they did? After all, they could say the whole state is backing a "hostile" nickname, therefore the whole state will be banned from hosting games. South Carolina could be the precedent.

Also, this idea, if it spreads, could be used to vote down support of the nickname. So, I honestly wouldn't mind this rumor fly around to put the fear of jebus into the SU folks to vote against the nickname, or else...

[Chewey]

Yes the NCAA policy on NA nicknames is clear. That doesn't mean that they can't change it at any time.

Just to show that the NCAA doesn't have to follow an exact policy, Alabama also has Confederate flags flying over a Civil War memorial on the State Capital grounds. They are not subject to the same policy as South Carolina.

To make things even less fair for South Carolina schools, both the ACC and the SEC have instituted a similar ban on hosting playoffs in South Carolina. So schools like Clemson and South Carolina can't even host conference playoff games.

The point should be that NDSU supporters should not be fighting against UND on this issue because they could become involved at some time in the future for no good reason.

Would you really expect any SU grad to appreciate that nuanced approach?

[The Sicatoka]

Would you really expect any SU grad to appreciate that nuanced approach?

Maybe just CAS.

He went apoplectic at the notion of the NCAA having power to expand the sanctions.

[darell1976]

I know tons of NDSU fans, the group of people you are talking about is a very tiny segment of the voting population. Some of you have been reading too much Bisonville.

Aces is one guy who says he is getting his friends and family to vote to keep the name to spite UND athletics. There are more people like him out there that are NOT on Bisonville.

[ScottM]

UND and its supporters fought everyone and everything they could to keep the name well after the deadline passed. All the while everyone on the outside were trying to explain that the constant fight wouldn't end well. Many of you on this board were still fighting this issue during the last legislative session. You sent emails supporting the bill to your representatives and were also high fiving Al Carlson early on. .

Really? Who?

Most of us on this board who supported UND and its attempts to drop the Sioux moniker actively fought against the introduction and passage of Clueless Al's legislation because we understood the NC$$ was wrapped in its own little, self-righteous bubble and that it would not back down one iota.

And here we are nearly a year later. Clueless Al is still clueless, the NC$$ hasn't budged and UND is under sanctions by virtue of the actions of the North Dakota legislature, So I'd say it's only fair that the people of the state really understand the full measure of the sanctions they brought upon UND through their elected legislature, or through their own votes.

[watchmaker49]

Then you don't know many NDSU fans!!! There are plenty of NDSU fans that are loving this whole train wreck between UND and the NCAA!! They relish in it!! There is a large group of Bison fans that would love to see UND athletics crumble to the ground. Such a result would only strengthen NDSU's athletic department. Trust me, they are out there.

Jealousy will eat you alive.

[watchmaker49]

Really? Who?

Most of us on this board who supported UND and its attempts to drop the Sioux moniker actively fought against the introduction and passage of Clueless Al's legislation because we understood the NC$$ was wrapped in its own little, self-righteous bubble and that it would not back down one iota.

And here we are nearly a year later. Clueless Al is still clueless, the NC$$ hasn't budged and UND is under sanctions by virtue of the actions of the North Dakota legislature, So I'd say it's only fair that the people of the state really understand the full measure of the sanctions they brought upon UND through their elected legislature, or through their own votes.

Scott, johnson is right there was a lot of support on this board for Al and mocking of anyone who said there would be problems. I am not saying you but there were many others.

[UNDBIZ]

Scott, johnson is right there was a lot of support on this board for Al and mocking of anyone who said there would be problems. I am not saying you but there were many others.

I'd agree at that time there was more support. However, after the NC$$ told big Al to f!$# off, the majority of SiouxSports supported the retirement to save UND.

[darell1976]

I'd agree at that time there was more support. However, after the NC$$ told big Al to f!$# off, the majority of SiouxSports supported the retirement to save UND.

I re-read a thread that was started on Feb. 21st, 2011 when the House Bill was first passed. I was more worried about UND losing its DI status or having it postponed come July 1st than anything else. Any idea if that is a possibility??

[watchmaker49]

I'd agree at that time there was more support. However, after the NC$$ told big Al to f!$# off, the majority of SiouxSports supported the retirement to save UND.

I would say at the minimum 90% supported the retirement after Al left Indianapolis with his tail bewteen his legs. Al did not suffer his humiliation lightly though and instead decided to make more problems.

[johnson]

Really? Who?

Most of us on this board who supported UND and its attempts to drop the Sioux moniker actively fought against the introduction and passage of Clueless Al's legislation because we understood the NC$$ was wrapped in its own little, self-righteous bubble and that it would not back down one iota.

And here we are nearly a year later. Clueless Al is still clueless, the NC$$ hasn't budged and UND is under sanctions by virtue of the actions of the North Dakota legislature, So I'd say it's only fair that the people of the state really understand the full measure of the sanctions they brought upon UND through their elected legislature, or through their own votes.

This is what you don't seem to understand. If UND would've taken care of its own affairs well before any of this started you wouldn't be throwing temper tantrums after it was taken out of UND's hands. The AG of ND who holds a degree from UND law signed an agreement to get tribal approval. Most individuals sat on their a**'s and assumed everything would be handled by someone else. The AG on Heitkamps show last week admitted he was willing to help the SBoHE with getting tribal approval but stated that he didn't recieve a return call from the board for his help on the issue. He didn't really make an effort himself to make sure an agreement was being reached.

After the deadline passed instead of honoring the agreement that was signed by the AG you kept resisting. With numerous reasons from others on why not to keep fighting it still continued. The majority of UND supporters didn't see the light until it was too late. The Kupchella era could even be brought into this but what good would it do at this point. UND fans have split and are now on separate sides which won't improve even when this issue gets resolved. Politicians are trying to save their careers after making bad choices. Now we have come to fans on message boards suggesting we take down every other school in ND with them if the vote goes the wrong way. Instead of handling the issue themselves they lost the ability to decide for themselves. It didn't have to come to this and you are not willing to take responsibility for your own actions or inactions in some cases.

[watchmaker49]

I re-read a thread that was started on Feb. 21st, 2011 when the House Bill was first passed. I was more worried about UND losing its DI status or having it postponed come July 1st than anything else. Any idea if that is a possibility??

Anything is possible in this world. The only thing that I have found to be impossible is putting toothpaste back in the tube.

[UNDBIZ]

I'd agree at that time there was more support. However, after the NC$$ told big Al to f!$# off, the majority of SiouxSports supported the retirement to save UND.

I re-read a thread that was started on Feb. 21st, 2011 when the House Bill was first passed. I was more worried about UND losing its DI status or having it postponed come July 1st than anything else. Any idea if that is a possibility??

That's entirely possible. I must admit I didn't go back and check old threads. I guess I can safely say I know many people who supported Carlson's bill at the time who now support retirement of the name.

Edit: Ah now that I read your post again I think I misread it the first time. In terms of whether UND could lose its D1 status or have it postponed, I would guess it's possible but I really don't know.

[watchmaker49]

That's entirely possible. I must admit I didn't go back and check old threads. I guess I can safely say I know many people who supported Carlson's bill at the time who now support retirement of the name.

Edit: Ah now that I read your post again I think I misread it the first time. In terms of whether UND could lose its D1 status or have it postponed, I would guess it's possible but I really don't know.

That's entirely possible. I must admit I didn't go back and check old threads. I guess I can safely say I know many people who supported Carlson's bill at the time who now support retirement of the name.

Edit: Ah now that I read your post again I think I misread it the first time. In terms of whether UND could lose its D1 status or have it postponed, I would guess it's possible but I really don't know.

From the pages that I went through from the Feb. 21st thread it seems that most of the people that cheered for Al rarely post here anymore. The ones that still do, excluding Chewey, DaveK, etc. want the name to be retired to save everything else. So in a sense Johnson was partially right but wrong about the majority of the posters here.

[82SiouxGuy]

This is what you don't seem to understand. If UND would've taken care of its own affairs well before any of this started you wouldn't be throwing temper tantrums after it was taken out of UND's hands. The AG of ND who holds a degree from UND law signed an agreement to get tribal approval. Most individuals sat on their a**'s and assumed everything would be handled by someone else. The AG on Heitkamps show last week admitted he was willing to help the SBoHE with getting tribal approval but stated that he didn't recieve a return call from the board for his help on the issue. He didn't really make an effort himself to make sure an agreement was being reached.

After the deadline passed instead of honoring the agreement that was signed by the AG you kept resisting. With numerous reasons from others on why not to keep fighting it still continued. The majority of UND supporters didn't see the light until it was too late. The Kupchella era could even be brought into this but what good would it do at this point. UND fans have split and are now on separate sides which won't improve even when this issue gets resolved. Politicians are trying to save their careers after making bad choices. Now we have come to fans on message boards suggesting we take down every other school in ND with them if the vote goes the wrong way. Instead of handling the issue themselves they lost the ability to decide for themselves. It didn't have to come to this and you are not willing to take responsibility for your own actions or inactions in some cases.

You have no clue who has or has not done something to resolve this issue, or when they did something. You make broad accusations without any evidence. As watchmaker said, most of the posters on this site that supported Carlson's Folly have moved on to infest other places. I know that there are regular posters on this board that made strong efforts to stop this nonsense at several different stages.

And none of the blame placing helps the situation as it currently sits. But it is a game that many of the posters from south of Grand Forks like to play. I swear that some of you live in the past and can't get past any real or perceived transgression, but have to wallow in it over and over and over again. Right now it is important that UND finds a usable solution to this issue. That starts with educating the public about the true and long term effects of the sanctions, and of the secondary effects. That might result in a NO vote in June. Spirit Lake getting its lawsuit thrown out would also help because some people may realize that there is no magic button that is going to change the minds of the NCAA. A yes vote would require the SBoHE take the issue back to the Supreme Court. And more education would need to be done before a vote is taken on a constitutional amendment.