Conference Realignments - Take 2

[star2city]

Add the Dakota 3 and 1 more(Utah Valley?) you can have 2- 7 team divisions.

Adding Idaho (all sports), Seattle, Boise St, Air Force, and Denver would really make the Big Sky a special conference.

[bincitysioux]

You do know that the NCC was the best DII conference in the country when it was running don't you?

Yes...............yes it was. And now the Big Sky has the two premier programs fromt that storied conference.............................

[bincitysioux]

I seriously doubt that the MVC would take USD or SDSU before NDSU.

I seriously doubt that the MVC would take any of those schools................................

[homer]

You do know that the NCC was the best DII conference in the country when it was running don't you?

Have fun with that.....

[Matt]

Cratter. I normally respect what you write, but not this time.

UND hockey didn't need NDSU, SDSU, or USD hockey to get where it got. The vision of UND aviation didn't come from those schools. When UND really shines, it is when UND differentiates itself from those institutions.

DI is supposed to be about reaching beyond the Tri-state region. The Big Sky does that. The Summit doesn't offer any meaningful media beyond the two Dakota states.

I'm all for UND playing the other schools out-of-conference, but, in the long run, UND is far better off in a different conference than those three.

Alumni outside the tri-state region are hugely in favor of the Big Sky. Fans within the region are more influenced by Fargo and Sioux Falls media, so they are not as overwhelmingly enthusiastic.

This is a complex dynamic. I agree with you to some degree, but the regional media matters here. A lot. We criticize and laugh at them from time to time, but The Terry V audio reveals the narrative that UND will be fighting against. Everything is filtered through the MVFC/Summit prism of border states on the I-29/I-90 corridor. That dominates the media messaging, and it will only get worse with USD and Omaha. People grow up with Big Ten and the MVFC/Summit (formerly NCC). The marketing department will have its work cut out for it to push through that to get comparable media hits.

[PhillySioux]

This is a complex dynamic. I agree with you to some degree, but the regional media matters here. A lot. We criticize and laugh at them from time to time, but The Terry V audio reveals the narrative that UND will be fighting against. Everything is filtered through the MVFC/Summit prism of border states on the I-29/I-90 corridor. That dominates the media messaging, and it will only get worse with USD and Omaha. People grow up with Big Ten and the MVFC/Summit (formerly NCC). The marketing department will have its work cut out for it to push through that to get comparable media hits.

Excellent observation. Wayne Nelson's comments about institutional fit in today's herald chat are illustrative of the issue. You will never hear a Forum writer, argus leader writer or mcfeeley etc discuss institutional peers and fit. Whether they are obtuse or it's intentional the conversation doesn't seem to be changing.

[Cratter]

Cratter. I normally respect what you write, but not this time.

UND hockey didn't need NDSU, SDSU, or USD hockey to get where it got. The vision of UND aviation didn't come from those schools. When UND really shines, it is when UND differentiates itself from those institutions.

DI is supposed to be about reaching beyond the Tri-state region. The Big Sky does that. The Summit doesn't offer any meaningful media beyond the two Dakota states.

I'm all for UND playing the other schools out-of-conference, but, in the long run, UND is far better off in a different conference than those three.

Alumni outside the tri-state region are hugely in favor of the Big Sky. Fans within the region are more influenced by Fargo and Sioux Falls media, so they are not as overwhelmingly enthusiastic.

No disrespect taken. I love your insight.

My only question does the UND administration agree with you. They have to write the checks. I believe they would like a more tighter footprint. Most athletics lose money? So where does that "extra" money come from? academics? the credit card?

Isn't sports mainly about attendance? Mainly football and basketball? NDSU is a football first school. They will get the fans no matter what. Where UND seems to be struggling. UND needs a rival to get fan interest kick started again.

I believe it really is a race to FBS. UNDs greatest long term benefit would be build that stadium and really differentiate itself. We could get the whole state behind us and draw many out of staters for each football game like hockey. I think this would really excite the fan base. But unfortunately UND is basically stuck in FCS for the next twenty years or more thanks to the Alerus. Whereas NDSU was ready yesterday.

Its really only a matter of time before the Montana schools leave. Then UND is really an outlier. If the Dakota schools were in the Sky it might keep the Montanas in the Sky longer and possibly move to FBS together?

[Cratter]

Adding Idaho (all sports), Seattle, Boise St, Air Force, and Denver would really make the Big Sky a special conference.

See this type of "differentiation" I could get more behind. Get these teams and I won't remember what I just wrote.

[Cratter]

This is a complex dynamic. I agree with you to some degree, but the regional media matters here. A lot. We criticize and laugh at them from time to time, but The Terry V audio reveals the narrative that UND will be fighting against. Everything is filtered through the MVFC/Summit prism of border states on the I-29/I-90 corridor. That dominates the media messaging, and it will only get worse with USD and Omaha. People grow up with Big Ten and the MVFC/Summit (formerly NCC). The marketing department will have its work cut out for it to push through that to get comparable media hits.

Yeah doesn't UND need the Fargo market? Lots of NDSU home football games are broadcast statewide on NBC, They also "own" the GF market. Forum owns the Herald and WDAZ. UND doesn't even get its own weekend news tv broadcasts anymore (they pipe in WDAY). Hopefully they don't cut WDAZ even more!

[FSSD]

This is a complex dynamic. I agree with you to some degree, but the regional media matters here. A lot. We criticize and laugh at them from time to time, but The Terry V audio reveals the narrative that UND will be fighting against. Everything is filtered through the MVFC/Summit prism of border states on the I-29/I-90 corridor. That dominates the media messaging, and it will only get worse with USD and Omaha. People grow up with Big Ten and the MVFC/Summit (formerly NCC). The marketing department will have its work cut out for it to push through that to get comparable media hits.

I find TV funny... couple of years ago all he could talk about was how nasty USD and UND were and that NDSU was a much more civil partner. Faster forward a couple of years:

- SDSU fans are hanging dogs on billboards by the interstate

- NDSU has the police by the visitors bench and opposing coaches raising concerns about language and safety.

- SDSU has student athlete in the stands causing visiting team members to cry - NOTE: SDSU won the Summit League sportsmanship award - must be a low bar.

- Summit League has player brawls in the general public bathrooms during conference tournaments.

They wonder why ORU left.

Now TV is self proclaimed expert on conference realignment and football polls. In a couple years he will be wrong again and he will be pimp'n the next SDSU SID topic.. the guy is a empty mouth piece.

[Cratter]

Isn't what I am proposing basically what started the Big Sky?

Two border states: UM, MSU, Idaho, ISU. Then they added a couple close schools in Gonzaga and Weber St all in 1963.

If it was good enough for them

[star2city]

This is a complex dynamic. I agree with you to some degree, but the regional media matters here. A lot. We criticize and laugh at them from time to time, but The Terry V audio reveals the narrative that UND will be fighting against. Everything is filtered through the MVFC/Summit prism of border states on the I-29/I-90 corridor. That dominates the media messaging, and it will only get worse with USD and Omaha. People grow up with Big Ten and the MVFC/Summit (formerly NCC). The marketing department will have its work cut out for it to push through that to get comparable media hits.

The people and media in Bismarck and Minot will be turned off by the Sioux Falls crap.

The prism that UND needs to be concerned about is Bismarck, Minot, Williston, and Dickinson as well as Billings, not Sioux Falls.

Billings - the media capital of Montana - is what matters, not Sioux Falls.

The Billings media is pumped that UND is in the Big Sky.

It's difficult to imagine the latest projections out of western ND:

1.2 million barrels / day (triple durrent rate, which has already tripled in two years)

A Williston with 50,000 to 75,000 people in 15 years.

Dickinson almost as big as Williston.

Minot almost doubling.

Bismarck growing 50%.

50,000 transplants from Montana in North Dakota.

25,000 transplants from Idaho

A huge number of native ND's returning to ND

A ND economy more than double what it is now, and actually dominated by the West.

A western part of the state that would be energized by the Big Sky and geography..

Billings' growth will be taking off - as well as the smaller Eastern Montana towns.

Let NDSU have the Summit, Sioux Falls, and SD to itself. Let NDSU be viewed as Fargo State.

Let Terry Vandrovec think he knows something and wax his poetical bull, when he doesn't know squat about economics or TV media or anything UND.

USD and SDSU have absolutely no relevance in western ND, where population and wealth will only continue to grow.

IF UND goes back to the Summit, the chance for UND athletics to become "the" collegiate team in western ND will be wasted.

[Teeder11]

The people and media in Bismarck and Minot will be turned off by the Sioux Falls crap.

The prism that UND needs to be concerned about is Bismarck, Minot, Williston, and Dickinson as well as Billings, not Sioux Falls.

Billings - the media capital of Montana - is what matters, not Sioux Falls.

The Billings media is pumped that UND is in the Big Sky.

It's difficult to imagine the latest projects out of western ND:

1.2 million barrels / day (triple durrent rate, which has already tripled in two years)

A Williston with 50,000 to 75,000 people in 15 years.

Dickinson almost as big as Williston.

Minot almost doubling.

Bismarck growing 50%.

50,000 transplants from Montana in North Dakota.

25,000 transplants from Idaho

A huge number of native ND's returning to ND

A ND economy more than double what it is now, and actually dominated by the West.

A western part of the state that would be energized by the Big Sky and geography..

Billings' growth will be taking off - as well as the smaller Eastern Montana towns.

Let NDSU have the Summit, Sioux Falls, and SD to itself.

Let Terry Vandrovec think he knows something and wax his poetical bull, when he doesn't know squat about economics or TV media or anything UND.

Totally agree with this. J. Kolpack, Terry V. and the Fargo-Sioux Falls media corridor have gotten so much wrong about UND it's disgraceful; especially the Douple/Kelley pseudo drama.

[star2city]

Isn't what I am proposing basically what started the Big Sky?

Two border states: UM, MSU, Idaho, ISU. Then they added a couple close schools in Gonzaga and Weber St all in 1963.

If it was good enough for them

Actually, Montana and Idaho had just been evicted from the PAC8's precursor (USC, UCLA, Stanford, Cal, Montana, Idaho, Washington, and Oregon).

Montana and Idaho had to form a new league from scratch. At the time, they reached out to the Dakotas, but air travel wasn't at the state then that it is now.

[Matt]

The people and media in Bismarck and Minot will be turned off by the Sioux Falls crap.

The prism that UND needs to be concerned about is Bismarck, Minot, Williston, and Dickinson as well as Billings, not Sioux Falls.

Billings - the media capital of Montana - is what matters, not Sioux Falls.

The Billings media is pumped that UND is in the Big Sky.

It's difficult to imagine the latest projections out of western ND:

1.2 million barrels / day (triple durrent rate, which has already tripled in two years)

A Williston with 50,000 to 75,000 people in 15 years.

Dickinson almost as big as Williston.

Minot almost doubling.

Bismarck growing 50%.

50,000 transplants from Montana in North Dakota.

25,000 transplants from Idaho

A huge number of native ND's returning to ND

A ND economy more than double what it is now, and actually dominated by the West.

A western part of the state that would be energized by the Big Sky and geography..

Billings' growth will be taking off - as well as the smaller Eastern Montana towns.

Let NDSU have the Summit, Sioux Falls, and SD to itself. Let NDSU be viewed as Fargo State.

Let Terry Vandrovec think he knows something and wax his poetical bull, when he doesn't know squat about economics or TV media or anything UND.

USD and SDSU have absolutely no relevance in western ND, where population and wealth will only continue to grow.

IF UND goes back to the Summit, the chance for UND athletics to become "the" collegiate team in western ND will be wasted.

You are dead on with your data, but won't the recruiting philosophy have to change focus to go along with that? Looking at the media guide, about 60% of the football roster comes from states on the I-29/I-90/I-94 corridor or parts east. Overwhelmingly unbalanced MVFC-Big Sky media messaging (I didn't include kids from west of Jamestown or the Grand Forks kids in that estimate). There are definitely more kids from CA and AZ than there was prior to the D-1 move, but that's true for NDSU as well. It doesn't seem the recruiting base is changing much to coincide with a Big Sky media messaging focus to the west.

[johnson]

My guess is that Omaha puts alot of their resources into their hockey program. They don't have to compete with Creighton and UN-L as they do in basketball. Focus on being a hockey school and have that be their bread and butter.

I think cutting FB and WR allows them to give all remaining programs a pretty big boost. Hockey has done it on their own up to this point and pumping more funds will only help that program get even further. Obviously they want to see the school get a firm hold on the hockey fans in the area. I see them looking at hockey in the same kind of light that MSUM has lately. Bring some attention to the school with hockey while building up the other programs in the process. If they can get the BB programs into a couple of NCAA tourney's they could slowly start chipping away at the Creighton strangle hold in Omaha. With the cutting of those two athletic programs they are going to have to see some production across the board quick or the Admin and AD will be run out of town in a hurry.

[Yote 53]

I hope you don't think Terry V is the spokesman for all South Dakota. He is an SDSU hack and one of the reasons many USD people won't buy the Argus Leader, that and the Argus's totally biased coverage for SDSU over USD.

We all get a chuckle down here when reading about NDSU fans thinking they have a shot in the Valley. The Valley is a basketball conference and they want winning basketball programs. Give us a few years and South Dakota is going to take over and dominate the Summit like we dominated the NCC in basketball the last 2 decades. NDSU has football history but USD has the basketball history.

Truth is, the only way any Dakota schools get in the Valley is if there is a schism in that conference between the private and public schools. Then I could see a conference of the Dakotas, Missouri St, Indiana & Illinois St, SIU, UNI, and Wichita St forming. More likely, and probably a great idea already mentioned is for the Dakota 4 to band with the Montanas and build an awesome new western conference.

[darell1976]

Between 2012-2014 if the Sumitt loses just 2 members before 2015 and don't replace them with non transitioning teams then the Summit will lose their status as an auto-bid conference. The rule is 7 members and in 2012 they will have 8 (UNO is not counted until their transition is over in 2015). Better hope teams out east stay put like Oakland, IUPUI, and IPFW stays put. We all would hate to see USD win the conference and not be dancing...NDSU we could care less.

[PhillySioux]

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7153316/boise-state-bronocs-discussing-move-big-west-conference-non-football-teams

This must have an impact on Sac States future options with Big West. Star2?

[JohnboyND7]

UNC's been to the Big Dance more recently than NDSU - last spring actually - so I quess they really are awful year-in and year-out.

The BIg Sky always had an intention of gaining a foothold (albeit small) Denver media - especially cable - before adding a Dakota school. If NDSU and SDSU had waited until UNC finished its transition, the Big Sky would have been much more interested in those two after UNC had become an NCAA eligible member.

I said their football program is awful year-in and year-out. I find it really funny that you seem to think that you know what the Big Sky's intentions were at the time. No one in Denver watches Big Sky athletics unless they are an alumni and you know that.

[JohnboyND7]

Star, I don't think playing Montana and Montana St. is going to get the people of Western ND to be UND fans. I don't think it is overly important to grab a few fans from that area either. They have a long drive to Grand Forks or Fargo and road games are even further. People in North Dakota that aren't big into NDSU or UND now aren't going to spontaneously become HUGE fans, that is not how it works bro. Best thing you can do, is just try to get your teams on tv or on the radio often enough so that the fans you do have can watch/hear the team play.

[MplsBison]

The people and media in Bismarck and Minot will be turned off by the Sioux Falls crap.

The prism that UND needs to be concerned about is Bismarck, Minot, Williston, and Dickinson as well as Billings, not Sioux Falls.

Billings - the media capital of Montana - is what matters, not Sioux Falls.

The Billings media is pumped that UND is in the Big Sky.

It's difficult to imagine the latest projections out of western ND:

1.2 million barrels / day (triple durrent rate, which has already tripled in two years)

A Williston with 50,000 to 75,000 people in 15 years.

Dickinson almost as big as Williston.

Minot almost doubling.

Bismarck growing 50%.

50,000 transplants from Montana in North Dakota.

25,000 transplants from Idaho

A huge number of native ND's returning to ND

A ND economy more than double what it is now, and actually dominated by the West.

A western part of the state that would be energized by the Big Sky and geography..

Billings' growth will be taking off - as well as the smaller Eastern Montana towns.

Let NDSU have the Summit, Sioux Falls, and SD to itself. Let NDSU be viewed as Fargo State.

Let Terry Vandrovec think he knows something and wax his poetical bull, when he doesn't know squat about economics or TV media or anything UND.

USD and SDSU have absolutely no relevance in western ND, where population and wealth will only continue to grow.

IF UND goes back to the Summit, the chance for UND athletics to become "the" collegiate team in western ND will be wasted.

UND is in Grand Forks, right? As in, a city on the eastern border with Minnesota?

[MplsBison]

Figured I'd check in on this thread to read about the Big East, Big XII, etc. But, it's more of the same as the last thread (despite the warning in the OP): garbage fake statistics and false arguments about how UND must focus on western ND and how the Big Sky is the only possible choice.

All you need to know is that Star2 has emotionally invested himself into hating the Summit league because he's bitter about the nickname retirement. He'll go to any length to prevent UND from joining that conference.

That's apparent, just read the lengths he goes in his posts to pigeonhole UND into the Big Sky - regardless if there are Montana schools there or not.

Just look at this picture, does this make any sense to you?!

[star2city]

http://espn.go.com/c...-football-teams

This must have an impact on Sac States future options with Big West. Star2?

The WAC has reportedly turned down Boise's (and Air Force's) overtures, as the WAC still thinks it can get to a 12 basketball / 9 football arrangement. Without the WAC, Boise's options are just the Big West and Big Sky (which would have to modify its rules.) Boise is likely doing everything it can to avoid the Big Sky (not wanting to be at the same level as Idaho State).

To get interest from the Big West, Boise will probably have to subsidize travel, just like Hawaii was required to for admission. Boise recruits mostly in California for all sports, so on that level it makes sense. If the Big West is still keen on UC San Diego (for its stellar academics), that might leave out Sac State in any move to 12.

[star2city]

That's apparent, just read the lengths he goes in his posts to pigeonhole UND into the Big Sky - regardless if there are Montana schools there or not.

Just look at this picture, does this make any sense to you?!

Thank you for posting a map that looks very much like the key to major UND alumni locations.

Mpls: Have you overcome the trauma of the Summit League losing Oral Roberts? That was a big blow to the Summit. Do you think the Summit will add Chicago State?