Fire Muss

[fightingsioux4life]

fightingsioux4life, on 10 November 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

College hockey football should not be run like the NHL NFL....or the AHL CFL.......or even the ECHL Arena Football. Most of these guys will never make it past the ECHL play a down after college. They are here to get an education and play hockey football while doing it. Keep the game and practices fun and expect good grades and good behavior in return.

Nice taking my comments out of context like that. Let me explain it to you more carefully this time: While collegiate athletics are not the same as professional athletics (these are student-athletes on scholarship, not multi-millionaires being paid by billionaires), winning and losing are more important in collegiate athletics than in high school athletics. Collegiate athletics are an important marketing tool for colleges and universities. The coaches are well-paid professionals and the student-athletes are going to school with very little coming out of their own (or Mom and Dad's) pockets. In high school athletics, the coaches usually double as teachers in the school system and the players are high school kids who play for fun; most of them aren't good enough to play college football. So yes, winning and losing is important in collegiate athletics, but not quite to the level of professional sports, where coaching changes happen far more often.

And, FYI, the example you ripped off from the hockey forum was a critique of Hakstol's coaching style, which is fair game in an online discussion forum like this. Thanks for playing, our hostess has some nice parting gifts for you.

[fightingsioux4life]

This, if true, is frightening. Not because the prospect of Muss staying is frightening, but because there appears to be influential people that think firing Muss would set the program back...as though there is anywhere lower left to fall...that the program-to them-hasn't hit rock bottom already.

This is why a change must be made now; the program hasn't hit rock-bottom yet. A couple of more years of this crap and it will. And it will be that much harder to rebuild it. The sooner we make a change, the better.

[mksioux]

The answer to your question would be pretty easy to find. The Big Sky went DI-AA in 1978. This link http://www.champions...e-fcs-playoffs/ shows the playoff history since that time.

Does anyone have the data of how many years in FCS or D1AA it has taken teams to make the playoffs for the first time? Especially the history of the Montanas, Montana States, Portland States, UNC, EWU, etc. How many years of being in FCS or D1AA before they had a playoff appearance? Are expectations of our football team by some people on this forum slightly out of touch?

I think it's pretty futile to compare the Big Sky's transition from DII to DI-AA in 1978, which was the first year of existence of DI-AA and the playoffs. Division affiliation back then was all over the place - some schools moving "up" to DI-AA, some reclassified "down" from University/DI status to DI-AA. Plus, the number of teams that made the playoffs started out at only four, then moved up to 8 in 1981, 12 in 1982, 16 in 1986, and 20 in 2010. So it would have been much harder to make the playoffs in those early years than it is now.

Having said that, some Big Sky notables:

Nevada: 1st year

Boise State: 3rd year

Idaho State: 4th year (national championship)

Montana: 5th year

Idaho: 5th year

Montana State: 7th year (national championship)

Eastern Washington: 3rd year

Portland State: 5th year

I think the only valid transition comparisons for UND are UNC, NDSU, SDSU, and USD. Of those, NDSU and SDSU clearly had better transitions. UND and USD were roughly about the same, but USD, after a coaching change, appears headed in the right direction and UND is headed in the wrong direction. UNC has been a train wreck and obviously not something UND wants to emulate.

[Bidago]

Locally, NDSU made the playoffs in 2010, their 3rd season of eligibility. SDSU made the playoffs in 2009, their 2nd season of eligibility.

UND's football program should be held to the same standard as these peer institutions

I wasn't necessarily expecting a playoff season this year, but I was expecting a much more competitive, disciplined & prepared football team. That falls on the UND coaching staff. No reason that UND fans should not expect a competitive team year in & year out. There is little to no pride or enthusiasm in this program right now, from the coaches and players (you can see it on game day) down to the fans/alumni. Changes need to be made for the long-term benefit of the football program. The longer a coaching change is put off, the longer the rebuilding will take. Changes need to start next Monday.

that really should NOT be to much to ask for and it DOES fall all the coaches - without a doubt

[Oxbow6]

Simply put as a season ticket holder for years I will be extremely disappointed if within a week following the UC Davis Faison doesn't let Muss go.

[gfhockey]

im done buying season tix also along with my 4 tailgating spots I buy per game. unless the people who have nexk credentials step up.

[dlsiouxfan]

Does anyone have the data of how many years in FCS or D1AA it has taken teams to make the playoffs for the first time? Especially the history of the Montanas, Montana States, Portland States, UNC, EWU, etc. How many years of being in FCS or D1AA before they had a playoff appearance? Are expectations of our football team by some people on this forum slightly out of touch?

I ask because it seems many on here have turned their back on the team because they hate the coach. I've had numerous conversations with people at UND, plus with others who have a long history with the program, knowledge of the Big Sky and experience in coaching college football since we joined the Big Sky. Since that time, the prevailing view of these people has been it will take at least until year 4 or 5 in the Big Sky for our program to get the point where we are a legitimate playoff team, year in and year out. The consenus of these people, whose opinions I value, feels there is zero chance Coach Mussman is fired. We think the UND Athletic Dept is going to stay the course, because it's the right thing to do and because firing a coach almost always sets a program back.

For me, watching UND sports, and especially football is like watching one of my children. I would never turn my back on one of my kids because someone else's kids are better than them at something. I would just continue to support and encourage them to get better and love them no matter what. I try to remember watching our team, is these are 18-22 year old college kids, here to get an education and play a game they love. We asked them to come here. We cheered when they agreed. I can't turn my back on that either. I'll continue to make all the games I can, and I expect us to be a playoff team before I tip over.

'

Honestly, if any of these people you know are employed in the athletic department then they are part of the problem and should be let go as well. This program is headed for 1 win or 2 win seasons indefinitely if Mussman remains the coach. The culture of this program absolutely sucks right now and I'd put 60% of the blame for that on the coaching staff. The remaining 40% of the blame lies with the players. I really question how much "love" these 18-22 years olds in our program have for the game or the program when we have seniors and juniors who play like they don't give a !@#$ and underclassmen who care so little about football that they can't stand on the sidelines anymore because they won't stop fucking around during games.

I'm a UND football letterwinner and season ticket holder and I've had about as much as I can stomach with this program right now. I've spoken with people within the athletic department (but outside of the coaching staff) who've worked along side or directly with the program for 10-15 years and they describe a program that's basically a disorganized mess. The gameday and practice locker rooms routinely look awful since the players take little to no pride in their working areas and post game discussions between the players after embarassing losses is mainly about where the night's party is at with little to no reflection on how poorly they've just played.

I've decided that if Mussman is still our coach after next season then we can only assume that Faison isn't really that serious about our football program and we need to change the title of this thread to "Fire Faison"

[fightingsioux4life]

Honestly, if any of these people you know are employed in the athletic department then they are part of the problem and should be let go as well. This program is headed for 1 win or 2 win seasons indefinitely if Mussman remains the coach. The culture of this program absolutely sucks right now and I'd put 60% of the blame for that on the coaching staff. The remaining 40% of the blame lies with the players. I really question how much "love" these 18-22 years olds in our program have for the game or the program when we have seniors and juniors who play like they don't give a !@#$ and underclassmen who care so little about football that they can't stand on the sidelines anymore because they won't stop fucking around during games.

I'm a UND football letterwinner and season ticket holder and I've had about as much as I can stomach with this program right now. I've spoken with people within the athletic department (but outside of the coaching staff) who've worked along side or directly with the program for 10-15 years and they describe a program that's basically a disorganized mess. The gameday and practice locker rooms routinely look awful since the players take little to no pride in their working areas and post game discussions between the players after embarassing losses is mainly about where the night's party is at with little to no reflection on how poorly they've just played.

I've decided that if Mussman is still our coach after next season then we can only assume that Faison isn't really that serious about our football program and we need to change the title of this thread to "Fire Faison"

I agree 100% with this, except that I put 100% of the blame on the coaching staff. They are the ones that recruited these kids, they are the ones that decide who plays and who sits, they are the ones that call the plays and decide what systems and schemes to use and they are the ones that have to set the tone for the entire program. Teams take on the personality and attitude of the head coach and, by extension, his subordinates. Just like in the military, if the operation goes bad, the blame lies with the officers that were in charge of it. This program lacks the leadership at the top and the right kind of players on the roster to be a success. The only way this gets fixed is with a top to bottom housecleaning. Give the new head coach whatever he needs to build the program the right way from top to bottom. He'll also have to weed out any players that are attitude problems. If that doesn't happen a week from today, I think Faison deserves whatever criticism he gets.

[Sioux Nation]

Valpo fired their coach and they don't even offer scholarships!

[Redneksioux]

This is why a change must be made now; the program hasn't hit rock-bottom yet. A couple of more years of this crap and it will. And it will be that much harder to rebuild it. The sooner we make a change, the better.

If 2000 fans at the alerus isn't rock bottom I don't want to know what rock bottom is.

[Sioux95]

Exactly, I put that on the coaching staff. Then in the post-game presser Muss makes excuses saying "we're supposed to continue to play, but typically they blow those dead..."

"Typically"? What happened to playing 'til the whistle instead of assuming the ref will call it dead? Obviously, UND cannot advance the ball since it went past the LOS, but I counted at least 4 UND players that could've just walked over & touched the ball dead before the UNC player picks it up. They gave up. That's an unprepared special teams unit & that's on the coaches. (In the 10th game of the season)

Agree that one was on the coaches

[jdub27]

Valpo fired their coach and they don't even offer scholarships!

They also are in a league where the rest of the schools don't offer scholarships (currently). He was 3-40 in his 4 years there.

[jdub27]

Nice taking my comments out of context like that. Let me explain it to you more carefully this time: While collegiate athletics are not the same as professional athletics (these are student-athletes on scholarship, not multi-millionaires being paid by billionaires), winning and losing are more important in collegiate athletics than in high school athletics. Collegiate athletics are an important marketing tool for colleges and universities. The coaches are well-paid professionals and the student-athletes are going to school with very little coming out of their own (or Mom and Dad's) pockets. In high school athletics, the coaches usually double as teachers in the school system and the players are high school kids who play for fun; most of them aren't good enough to play college football. So yes, winning and losing is important in collegiate athletics, but not quite to the level of professional sports, where coaching changes happen far more often.

And, FYI, the example you ripped off from the hockey forum was a critique of Hakstol's coaching style, which is fair game in an online discussion forum like this. Thanks for playing, our hostess has some nice parting gifts for you.

Call it out of context if you want, but they were your words and they were quite contradicting.

[Sioux Nation]

They also are in a league where the rest of the schools don't offer scholarships (currently). He was 3-40 in his 4 years there.

Gee jdub27........ Thanks for clarifying the obvious. Didn't I say they fired the coach and they don't even offer scholarships? Isn't it relative? I know USD, Butler, and Marist don't give scholarships either but they are winning programs. Muss and UND ARE FAST BECOMING THE VALPO OF THE BIG SKY WHO ALL GIVE SCHOLARSHIPS IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT.

[jdub27]

Gee jdub27........ Thanks for clarifying the obvious. Didn't I say they fired the coach and they don't even offer scholarships? Isn't it relative? I know USD, Butler, and Marist don't give scholarships either but they are winning programs. Muss and UND ARE FAST BECOMING THE VALPO OF THE BIG SKY WHO ALL GIVE SCHOLARSHIPS IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT.

Was just trying to figure out the correlation between him being fired and them giving scholarships.

[Sioux95]

I can't be a supporter of muss AND UND football at the same time. I think anyone who wants to see UND football reach its potential,and wants to see this program provide student athletes with an experience they will value for a lifetime can't be happy if muss gets another year at the helm. I personally think this program is becoming an embarrassment, and If Faison lets this continue, it won't be long before he will be applying at schools like Dickinson State for his next job opportunity

For those who think Muss should have another year, tell me something that makes me believe this program hasn't gotten worse every year since Lennon left.

[geaux_sioux]

Its time for a disciplinarian coach with a defensive background and Midwestern recruiting pipelines that is an alpha dog again. Someone who's not afraid to trim ALL of the fat and nips things before they become a cancer. We don't need more of the same. I don't share all I've heard but I can't defend Mussman as a leader for this program any more, I just can't. The program deserves better.

[fightingsioux4life]

Call it out of context if you want, but they were your words and they were quite contradicting.

So you are saying context doesn't matter? Yeah, I am glad you didn't teach my English classes in high school.

[bincitysioux]

...................I ask because it seems many on here have turned their back on the team because they hate the coach. I've had numerous conversations with people at UND, plus with others who have a long history with the program, knowledge of the Big Sky and experience in coaching college football since we joined the Big Sky. Since that time, the prevailing view of these people has been it will take at least until year 4 or 5 in the Big Sky for our program to get the point where we are a legitimate playoff team, year in and year out. The consenus of these people, whose opinions I value, feels there is zero chance Coach Mussman is fired. We think the UND Athletic Dept is going to stay the course, because it's the right thing to do and because firing a coach almost always sets a program back.

For me, watching UND sports, and especially football is like watching one of my children. I would never turn my back on one of my kids because someone else's kids are better than them at something. I would just continue to support and encourage them to get better and love them no matter what. I try to remember watching our team, is these are 18-22 year old college kids, here to get an education and play a game they love. We asked them to come here. We cheered when they agreed. I can't turn my back on that either. I'll continue to make all the games I can, and I expect us to be a playoff team before I tip over.

I think most of the regulars on this site would agree that I have a history of being a Mussman apologist.........................up until this season. The guy was promoted to the head job by interim A.D.'s, after getting the support of Dale Lennon to take over. He has had to deal with the transition to DI, the nickname issue, and an extended period with no conference affilitation. Basically, the the deck was stacked against him from the get-go.

However, with the resources that the University provides, this program should not be struggling like it is at this point. I was not as optimistic about this season as most of the members of this site were coming in. I said, prior to the season, that if North Dakota went 7-4 (best case scenario) and made the playoffs that Mussman would be deserving of Big Sky Coach of the Year honors, given what was returning on the team. Well, honestly I never expected 7 wins this season, but I CERTAINLY didn't expect only 3. And getting a 4th win will be a tall task.

And I admit, I would still probably be advocating for the current staff in a 3 or 4 win season this year, if we had at least been competetive against the top Big Sky teams. Fact is, we are not even close to being able to beat the best of the Big Sky.

If one considers Montana St., Eastern Washington, Montana, and Northern Arizona the cream of the crop in the conference, then I feel the need to point out that North Dakota is 1-7 against those schools since joining the league, and have we've been outscored 390 to 185 in those games.

Honestly, I'm confident that our 36 scholarship teams from 1999-2007 would have fared as good or better in the Big Sky than has our recent teams....................

It is time for a change, it is time to shake things up.

I have all the confidence in the world in Brian Faison as Athletic Director. He's done a helluva job in his time here with transition issues, nickname issues, coaching issues, and conference affiliation issues.

I will also support the team no matter what. I don't have pre-determined stipulations when my ticket renewals come every spring. I love the University of North Dakota, and I love college sports.

[gfhockey]

im gunna copy and paste that to Faison!

[Sioux Nation]

Was just trying to figure out the correlation between him being fired and them giving scholarships.

I don't think it's rocket science. My point was Valpo fired their coach before the season ended. Yes, they are a non-scholarship school in a non-scholarship conference. But that is my point.....knowing they compete without scholarships, one would think there wouldn't be urgency to fire a coach, let alone fire him before the season ends. North Dakota is in the midst of another 3 win season (with 7 home games) while getting blown out by the top tier teams in the Big Sky. I would imagine the standards at UND are a bit higher for football success yet we still have our head coach heading into the last game. I hope that clears things up for you.

[jdub27]

I don't think it's rocket science. My point was Valpo fired their coach before the season ended. Yes, they are a non-scholarship school in a non-scholarship conference. But that is my point.....knowing they compete without scholarships, one would think there wouldn't be urgency to fire a coach, let alone fire him before the season ends. North Dakota is in the midst of another 3 win season (with 7 home games) while getting blown out by the top tier teams in the Big Sky. I would imagine the standards at UND are a bit higher for football success yet we still have our head coach heading into the last game. I hope that clears things up for you.

Fair point. At this level, I don't see a large benefit to firing your coach mid-season unless there are off the field issues as well. I've said all along that IF Mussman is let go, it will be at the end of the season.

[Siouxperfan7]

Please God have it be next Monday!!

[BobIwabuchiFan]

If Monday comes and Muss is still the coach, then we need to formally change this topic to FIRE FAISON...If the AD can't see what's happening to the program, then he has to go as well....

[jdub27]

I think most of the regulars on this site would agree that I have a history of being a Mussman apologist.........................up until this season. The guy was promoted to the head job by interim A.D.'s, after getting the support of Dale Lennon to take over. He has had to deal with the transition to DI, the nickname issue, and an extended period with no conference affilitation. Basically, the the deck was stacked against him from the get-go.

However, with the resources that the University provides, this program should not be struggling like it is at this point. I was not as optimistic about this season as most of the members of this site were coming in. I said, prior to the season, that if North Dakota went 7-4 (best case scenario) and made the playoffs that Mussman would be deserving of Big Sky Coach of the Year honors, given what was returning on the team. Well, honestly I never expected 7 wins this season, but I CERTAINLY didn't expect only 3. And getting a 4th win will be a tall task.

And I admit, I would still probably be advocating for the current staff in a 3 or 4 win season this year, if we had at least been competetive against the top Big Sky teams. Fact is, we are not even close to being able to beat the best of the Big Sky.

If one considers Montana St., Eastern Washington, Montana, and Northern Arizona the cream of the crop in the conference, then I feel the need to point out that North Dakota is 1-7 against those schools since joining the league, and have we've been outscored 390 to 185 in those games.

Honestly, I'm confident that our 36 scholarship teams from 1999-2007 would have fared as good or better in the Big Sky than has our recent teams....................

It is time for a change, it is time to shake things up.

I have all the confidence in the world in Brian Faison as Athletic Director. He's done a helluva job in his time here with transition issues, nickname issues, coaching issues, and conference affiliation issues.

I will also support the team no matter what. I don't have pre-determined stipulations when my ticket renewals come every spring. I love the University of North Dakota, and I love college sports.

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