Kelley has deceived the media and you

[star2city]

you make a lot of assertions and accusations while knowing maybe 10% of the actual total facts. None of us on here will ever know all the discussions, negotiations and details that have gone into the nickname situation over the years between all the parties. Rumors and opinions aren't facts. Neither are opinions based on opinions. Making bold statements on emotion, opinion and 10% of the facts don't make them "facts". To claim you know enough to be calling out Kelley and demanding his head shows a level of ignorance that is beneath even an anonymous sports message board. It's reached the silly stage.

Some of us actually read the news. Everything stated in what you quoted is freely available in the media. Look it up.

[CAS4127]

you make a lot of assertions and accusations while knowing maybe 10% of the actual total facts. None of us on here will ever know all the discussions, negotiations and details that have gone into the nickname situation over the years between all the parties. Rumors and opinions aren't facts. Neither are opinions based on opinions. Making bold statements on emotion, opinion and 10% of the facts don't make them "facts". To claim you know enough to be calling out Kelley and demanding his head shows a level of ignorance that is beneath even an anonymous sports message board. It's reached the silly stage.

Actually, I think it may even be beyond that to "ignoramous stage".

[CAS4127]

Originally posted by star2:

Douple's original story about the nickname preventing UND from gaining admittance to the Summit League was always contrived. The nickname has been unfairly vilified for years, and sooner or later people began to believe it.

As Carlson stated, a now open dirty little secret is that certain members of the SBoHE always wanted the nickname gone. The SBoHE and Chapman hatched the nickname scheme with Douple, with Kelley complicit in it.

Since Douple's continued employment relies on NDSU's support at Summit President's meetings, Douple couldn't go out and expose the whole story, only the part about Kelley being involved. The SBoHE would have demanded Douple's scalp if Douple told more Many of the SBoHE members probably never knew about any fix. including Shaft and Espegaard.

Um, arent those statements a bit contradictory??!!! Just askin!!!

[WYOBISONMAN]

Douple's original story about the nickname preventing UND from gaining admittance to the Summit League was always contrived. The nickname has been unfairly vilified for years, and sooner or later people began to believe it.

As Carlson stated, a now open dirty little secret is that certain members of the SBoHE always wanted the nickname gone. The SBoHE and Chapman hatched the nickname scheme with Douple, with Kelley complicit in it.

Since Douple's continued employment relies on NDSU's support at Summit President's meetings, Douple couldn't go out and expose the whole story, only the part about Kelley being involved. The SBoHE would have demanded Douple's scalp if Douple told more. Many of the SBoHE members probably never knew about any fix, including Shaft and Espegaard.

One of the reasons that the nickname vote was so lopsided in the legislature was that legislators were so outraged by SBoHE nickname fix. That as well as the Chapman situation has totally antagonized the legislature toward the SBoHE.

The expenses that the Big Sky is concerned about are potential for UND to host a post-season tournament. Since there is often only five days to purchase a airplane ticket, there wouldn't be any cheap fares. For regular conference games, the air expenses are much much less, as those travel arrangements are made months in advance.

For Fullerton's dream of an FBS/FCS conference to happen, UND has to be part of the conference: nickname or not.

Good lord.......you have gone completely nuts! Like a little dog......biting at what ever is close....because you are in pain. This is completely irrational.

[planetearth]

Strange how none of the previous tirades have addressed the core issue of this thread:

Kelley claimed in the media that their was a Big Sky vote against UND's nickname.

Fullerton adamantly denied that, and stated that any vote regarding UND would be on the right to host.

The NCAA has claimed the Big Sky has passed a resolution identical to it's own on the nickname.

Those are the facts, and nobody has refuted those words from either Kelley or Fullerton or the NCAA.

Cleary, someone has misinformed the media and the NCAA.

It's either Fullerton or Kelley.

Stick your head in the sand all you want, either Kelley lied or Fullerton lied.

Kelley could have taken the ethical high road like Clifford would have done and reported the facts: instead he chose to launch an all-out political attack to get his way.

Links please.

In this thread, I have never ever denied that the Sioux nickname wouldn't have extremely serious consequences to the athletic department. If the Big Sky banned UND from hosting post-season events, that would be a major blow. There is absolutely no denying that.

But having a President with ethical issues is equally a major blow.

What was all your talk about the Big Sky being "above" the Midwest Snobbery?

You are full of many contradictions and seem to be grasping at straws.

[Hawkster]

Links please.

What was all your talk about the Big Sky being "above" the Midwest Snobbery?

You are full of many contradictions and seem to be grasping at straws.

I doubt you will get a reply from star. He lives in his own little delusional world and thinks that if you ignore what you don't like it can't hurt you or it will just go away. Ignoring the name issue for years is what got this university in the position it is.

[gabe01]

The bill was not going to pass until your hockey coach got involved and got everyone fired up about this "ingenious " plan. Blame him. Blame all the people who bought into it without having the foresight to see that the NCAA doesn't care. Its not a conspiracy. Its not Douple. Its not Carlson. He was not the only one who supported the bill. It takes more than 1 vote to pass. And all the facts are irrelevant because the Big Sky is going to follow the wishes of the NCAA. All of those facts are before all of this happened.

[FSSD]

The bill was not going to pass until your hockey coach got involved and got everyone fired up about this "ingenious " plan. Blame him. Blame all the people who bought into it without having the foresight to see that the NCAA doesn't care. Its not a conspiracy. Its not Douple. Its not Carlson. He was not the only one who supported the bill. It takes more than 1 vote to pass. And all the facts are irrelevant because the Big Sky is going to follow the wishes of the NCAA. All of those facts are before all of this happened.

You are absolutely correct Mr Carlson has one vote. But, he is the Majority Leader and Legislative Management Chairman for the House of Representatives. So, he plays a key role controlling legislative actives within the State of North Dakota. He played the lead role in further politicizing a polarizing topic at the state level. Mr Carlson knew prior to creating the bill that the Sioux name had very strong support within the state of North Dakota including both Sioux tribes. I believe the support shown by members of the Standing Rock and Spirit Lake tribes are the key components that lead to this legislation passing. Without that support this bill would have never made it to a vote on the floor. Please note - 8 of the 12 Grand Forks legislators voted against the bill. Saying that Hakstol drove this is "one whale of" a story and just "my oh my".

[KermitsHermits]

I'm curious as to what Gene Roebuck has to say about this current situation? On one hand in the last year he has said that it was absolutely necessary to get into a "real" conference". At the same time he said when they announced the retirement of the nickname "I wouldn't sell my soul, or nickname to get into a conference" when it was thought that the retirement was in part to gain access to the Summit League. I wonder what his feelings are about the nickname now, if it ends up having an effect on our Big Sky membership? Has his position changed?

[The Sicatoka]

BSC Commissioner Fullerton responds to Sen. Mac Schneider:

The issues that I raise in my letter to President Kelley are real. I had raised similar issues in March with the Grand Forks press, and at their recent meeting in Utah the Big Sky Presidents, merely confirmed they were where I thought they were. The NCAA sanctions that will most likely be upheld, as well as what I would see as a growing boycott over time from other member institutions, could very well render the University of North Dakota irrelevant as an NCAA Division I member. I have no doubt that right now the issue is having a negative effect not only on its scheduling opportunities (wihch drive the power rankings we all strive for) but I would guess that it is also beginning to have an effect on the minds of the young recruits who would ordinarily be considering the University of North Dakota. All this leaves the Big Sky Conference and any other NCAA Division I conference with very little reason to continue to offer membership to UND.

Obviously, "there are a few more cards left to play in this game". And, I can assure you we will take the time necessary to make an informed decision. And, no one, either at the University, or in the state of North Dakota, will not be given adequate warning of any impending action by the Big Sky Conference.

We all consider the University of North Dakota a terrific institution and our first wish is that we can get this all behind us, but the Presidents of the existing members were very clear in their guidance to me. And, they are very serious regarding the ideals they wish to represent. Let me know if I can be of asistance, and good luck.

http://legacy.grandforksherald.com/pdfs/BigSkyLetterSchneider.pdf

[dmksioux]

I'm curious as to what Gene Roebuck has to say about this current situation? On one hand in the last year he has said that it was absolutely necessary to get into a "real" conference". At the same time he said when they announced the retirement of the nickname "I wouldn't sell my soul, or nickname to get into a conference" when it was thought that the retirement was in part to gain access to the Summit League. I wonder what his feelings are about the nickname now, if it ends up having an effect on our Big Sky membership? Has his position changed?

I was kind of curious as well. Especially since it's appeared to cost the UND Women's Team a home game against the University of Iowa. That would have been a huge game to host.

[The Sicatoka]

Isn't Roebuck the coach who'd only ever played one style of defence ... until the switch to DI.

[coach daddy]

Isn't Roebuck the coach who'd only ever played one style of defence ... until the switch to DI.

What the hell does that have to do with anything being discussed here? Did he not recruit your daughter or something?

Buck has done alot of keep the name at UND and he worked very hard with the Spirit Lake tribe to make sure they realize the honor of the name. My guess today, knowing him like I think I do, he wants the name issue resolved. If that means putting it to rest, so be it. Losing the Iowa game was a big deal for everyone except the people blinded by this name thing.

Time for all to wake up. Al Carlson, do you hear me!!!!!

By the way, you spelled defense wrong, dope!!!

[The Sicatoka]

What the hell does that have to do with anything being discussed here? Did he not recruit your daughter or something? ...

By the way, you spelled defense wrong, dope!!!

1. I pointed that out because --> Even Roebuck changed when the circumstances around him forced him to. (There's a moniker message in that statement.)

2. I spelled it correctly north of the 49th parallel. (And thanks for the ad hominem attack.)

And dude, why so angry?

[Chewey]

except the people blinded by this name thing.

What, you mean like the professors and administrators (Jim Grijalva, Leigh Jeanotte, etc) who have fixated on this issue for 15 years? Ease up on the histrionics and attacks. Say what you want about Carlson, but he and the legislature and the Governor are the ONLY ONES who have listened to the Native Americans and alumni in this whole tired episode. Carlson and the legislature have done more to effectuate the purpose and terms of the surrender agreement than the SBoHE, NCAA or any party for that matter. Some may think he has ulterior motives, or whatever, and they are entitled to think that. That is a legitimate take on it but I am not sure that it would be borne out factually. The one thing that can be borne out factually is this: The legislature acted at the behest of the Native Americans and the super-majority who supports the nickname and logo and they did something about it. They are not the villains in this. Does anyone think that the legislation passes WITHOUT the support of Native Americans at Spirit Lake and on Standing Rock? Save your vitriol for those who have been sowing discord for years and then claiming the nickname and logo are "divisive" and "discriminatory." Save your vitriol for those who have morphed their arguments and tactics in response to those previous absurd claims being proved false.

[bigskyvikes]

^^Yeah, what he said!!

[The Sicatoka]

A question for the legal-eagles that peruse this forum:

Don't laws have to have a penalty associated with them to make them enforceable?

If you speed and get caught you get a ticket and a fine per the penalty associated with the traffic laws.

If you are 19 and have an open beer in your hand that's minor in posession, a class B (?) misdemeanor under state law, with penalty specified by law.

If you murder someone that's a class A felony with penalty associated by law.

So, "Fighting Sioux" is the moniker of UND is the law. So, what's the penalty for violation? Ticket? Misdemeanor? Felony?

Without a defined penalty for violation, where's the enforcement? No prosecutor will take a case that has no penalty for the offender, will they?

Some of you are saying the law is unconstitutional under state law.

I say it is unenforceable without a defined penalty, and the law doesn't define one.

State law says the state bird is the western meadowlark and the state horse is the Nokota. If I print up a brochure claiming they are the crow and the clydesdale do I face a ticket? The death penalty? It's the same kind of state law unless there's a defined penalty.

[WYOBISONMAN]

I think the issue is....would UND and the SBOHE go against something that is explicitly in violation of ND law (albeit a foolish law). I have a hard time seeing the law being ignored. I just needs to be repealed and have common sense prevail and the right thing done for UND and Higher Ed in ND.

[farce poobah]

A question for the legal-eagles that peruse this forum:

Don't laws have to have a penalty associated with them to make them enforceable?

If you speed and get caught you get a ticket and a fine per the penalty associated with the traffic laws.

If you are 19 and have an open beer in your hand that's minor in posession, a class B (?) misdemeanor under state law, with penalty specified by law.

If you murder someone that's a class A felony with penalty associated by law.

So, "Fighting Sioux" is the moniker of UND is the law. So, what's the penalty for violation? Ticket? Misdemeanor? Felony?

Without a defined penalty for violation, where's the enforcement? No prosecutor will take a case that has no penalty for the offender, will they?

....

What's the penalty? In this case, political.

At the time the law was passed, the SBOHE blinked because the "court of public opinion" says that North Dakotans overwhelmingly support Fighting Sioux as the nickname. (Phrased that way, it is still overwhelmingly in favor.) Had they come out then as appearing not to support "Fighting Sioux", it would have simply given more ammunition to the power-grabbing ambitions of Carlson and the legislature.

So in this case, the penalty to SBOHE was political.

We'll see how far the pendulum swings in the court of public opinion toward not wanting to risk UND athletics in their entirety ... and how far the court of public opinion places blame for this fiasco on Carlson and the legislature.

With all that said, your original premise - what's the penalty? - is spot on.

[yababy8]

I think the issue is....would UND and the SBOHE go against something that is explicitly in violation of ND law (albeit a foolish law). I have a hard time seeing the law being ignored. I just needs to be repealed and have common sense prevail and the right thing done for UND and Higher Ed in ND.

The only opportunity for the prevalence of common sense in this whole name change debacle would be where all of the fair minded RATIONAL members of our society would stand up to the faciest who prevade positions of influence and power in this country and say clearly and loudly,

"sorry we the people have spoken and we are not changing OUR name. If you want to destroy our

Teams because of our disobedience then so be it.

We here in Noth Dakota do not sell out who we are because of intimidation.

We love the name, want the name, and there is no rational argument to be had for changing it when it is loved, supported and respected ny the majority. So do what your going to do and in the end God will decide who did the right thing and who did not."

[GeauxSioux]

The only opportunity for the prevalence of common sense in this whole name change debacle would be where all of the fair minded RATIONAL members of our society would stand up to the faciest who prevade positions of influence and power in this country and say clearly and loudly,

"sorry we the people have spoken and we are not changing OUR name. If you want to destroy our

Teams because of our disobedience then so be it.

We here in Noth Dakota do not sell out who we are because of intimidation.

We love the name, want the name, and there is no rational argument to be had for changing it when it is loved, supported and respected ny the majority. So do what your going to do and in the end God will decide who did the right thing and who did not."

Your post lacks logic. You would destroy all of your teams just to keep the name. Why have a name if you have no teams to use the name?

Some times being right doesn't make it the right thing to do and I really don't think God cares if UND is known as the Fighting Sioux.

[dakota fairways]

A question for the legal-eagles that peruse this forum:

Don't laws have to have a penalty associated with them to make them enforceable?

If you speed and get caught you get a ticket and a fine per the penalty associated with the traffic laws.

If you are 19 and have an open beer in your hand that's minor in posession, a class B (?) misdemeanor under state law, with penalty specified by law.

If you murder someone that's a class A felony with penalty associated by law.

So, "Fighting Sioux" is the moniker of UND is the law. So, what's the penalty for violation? Ticket? Misdemeanor? Felony?

Without a defined penalty for violation, where's the enforcement? No prosecutor will take a case that has no penalty for the offender, will they?

Some of you are saying the law is unconstitutional under state law.

I say it is unenforceable without a defined penalty, and the law doesn't define one.

State law says the state bird is the western meadowlark and the state horse is the Nokota. If I print up a brochure claiming they are the crow and the clydesdale do I face a ticket? The death penalty? It's the same kind of state law unless there's a defined penalty.

not a legal eagle, but a very interested observer... this response is in the spirit of star's premise in starting this thread. (sorry, when I proofread this it is longer than I expected, but I sometimes tend to get wordy)

The Fighting Sioux bill presented by Mr Carlson and passed by the legislature was the first round in Carlson's attempt to disband the ND State Board of Higher Education. Carlson led the Fighting Sioux bill as an attempt to put the SBoHE on their heels and force them into a corner with this highly emotional issue in anticipation of his later bill to eliminate the SBoHE. If the Board has fought against this bill and put the active Sioux name supporters against the Board, Carlson's bill to disband the Board would have had more support from the people of the state who would have been screaming for the heads of the board members for fighting against the treasured Sioux name. I would have been one of them.

Fast forward a month, and the bill to shut down the State Board of Higher Education fails. The board retains the support of the people of ND, at least partly, because they did not take a stand against the retention of the Fighting Sioux name. The ploy blew up in Carlson's face and control of higher education in ND remains out of the legislature's hands.

Now, here we are in June of the following year: the Big Sky Conference has, for whatever reason you want to assign to it, thrown the last straw onto the back of the camel. For many of us, it is a dealbreaker and makes the fight to keep the Fighting Sioux name too expensive. For some, the fat lady has not yet sung but even those supporters hear the orchestra warming up behind the curtain. Carlson will make a politician's last gasp effort to make the NCAA see the light and allow UND to keep the name. In the meantime, he is not going to go down alone and has implicated Dr Kelly as the Wizard of OZ behind the curtain pulling the ropes that are making everything go his way. Not sure if I do or do not believe that Kelly is complicit in the stuff going on behind the scenes, but truly feel that Carlson was trying to use this issue as a way to injure the SBoHE before actually trying to take them down a month later.

What happens if the SBoHE and UND don't follow the law? Probably nothing, since there is no penalty spelled out, and it has been revealed to be a law that is detrimental to UND and the state of North Dakota, however the SBoHE is a state agency and as such will follow the law as long as it is in effect. The recourse the state has is either to repeal the law during the special session, or for the nickname supporters, to put the name up for a statewide referendum and use the vote of the people as an argument with the NCAA. If the vote of Sioux County could be represented as a vote of the members of the Standing Rock (I have total confidence that the precincts of Benson County that are part of the Spirit Lake reservation would ratify their previous vote), maybe the NCAA would allow the Fighting Sioux to be removed from the hostile and abusive list. At this point in time, since the three years have passed, the NCAA does not even have to listen to a vote, but merely stand on their previous agreement with UND. I know the nickname supporters will go to the last bell in support of the name, but at this point, there is no incentive for the NCAA to change their position, and to even allow UND an extra few months to get the bill repealed in November's special session without putting UND on the hostile and abusive list in the meantime is a compromise on the NCAA's part. They hold all the cards, and they do indeed hold the signed agreement as the trump card.

[GeauxSioux]

What happens if the SBoHE and UND don't follow the law? Probably nothing, since there is no penalty spelled out, and it has been revealed to be a law that is detrimental to UND and the state of North Dakota, however the SBoHE is a state agency and as such will follow the law as long as it is in effect. The recourse the state has is either to repeal the law during the special session, or for the nickname supporters, to put the name up for a statewide referendum and use the vote of the people as an argument with the NCAA. If the vote of Sioux County could be represented as a vote of the members of the Standing Rock (I have total confidence that the precincts of Benson County that are part of the Spirit Lake reservation would ratify their previous vote), maybe the NCAA would allow the Fighting Sioux to be removed from the hostile and abusive list. At this point in time, since the three years have passed, the NCAA does not even have to listen to a vote, but merely stand on their previous agreement with UND. I know the nickname supporters will go to the last bell in support of the name, but at this point, there is no incentive for the NCAA to change their position, and to even allow UND an extra few months to get the bill repealed in November's special session without putting UND on the hostile and abusive list in the meantime is a compromise on the NCAA's part. They hold all the cards, and they do indeed hold the signed agreement as the trump card.

There is the possibility that the law can be deemed unconstitutional. The legislature does not have the power constitutionally to make a law forcing a school, which is under the SBoHE domain, to change it's nickname.

Additionally, I'm of the mind that the Big Sky, not unlike the NCAA, would rather the name go away than get tribal approval. As long as the name stays there will be issues. One of the biggest is that even with tribal approval now, two years from now, one of the two tribal councils could vote to rescind approval and then UND would have one year to transition away from Fighting Sioux, starting the whole thing over again.

[The Sicatoka]

One of the biggest is that even with tribal approval now, two years from now, one of the two tribal councils could vote to rescind approval and then UND would have one year to transition away from Fighting Sioux, starting the whole thing over again.

And there folks is the other problem.

We've seen how fickle tribal politics can be.

All it will take is one minor event, one molehill made mountain, and UND is stuck back into this same position.

There's a reason the ND SBoHE wanted a 30 year contractual agreement (and not just a recindable "perpetual" statement). It's in italics.

[dakota fairways]

And there folks is the other problem.

We've seen how fickle tribal politics can be.

All it will take is one minor event, one molehill made mountain, and UND is stuck back into this same position.

There's a reason the ND SBoHE wanted a 30 year contractual agreement (and not just a recindable "perpetual" statement). It's in italics.

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