New Nickname

[ericpnelson]

Grey Wolves?

the world is either black or white

[The Sicatoka]

Only Marvin the Martian.

The Martian Manhunter too.

[darell1976]

the world is either black or white

I thought the world was green and white.

[bison73]

The settlement agreement is an imperfect document, and there is no way that the drafters could have anticipated the way this played out.  The timeline for action in the agreement is particularly suspect, as there were significant delays occasioned by legislation, litigation, and God knows what else.  Heck, the NCAA already allowed a huge concession with respect to imagery at REA, so who knows where things will ultimately settle?

 

In light of events now passed, it is virtually impossible to interpret and apply the agreement literally.  You have to go beyond the four corners to breathe some meaningful life into the document.  The quoted clause about returning UND to the infamous "list" is meaningless because we are no longer engaged in conduct that would place us on said list.  Loophole city! 

 

My take is that the parties just assumed that there would be a new name, but that neither party expected there to be even the slightest possibility that UND would seriously consider going nameless.  The total absence (*presumed but not confirmed) of an NCAA rule affirmatively requiring that members have a nickname pretty much forecloses "sanctions."  NCAA's only options if UND stalls out would then be to (1) let UND slide, (2) sue for a breach of contract, or (3) enact a new rule, which they might not even be able to enforce retroactively.  

I dont think UND wants to spend anymore money on a losing situation. Sometimes you just have to fold up the tent and move on.

[darell1976]

I dont think UND wants to spend anymore money on a losing situation. Sometimes you just have to fold up the tent and move on.

That is true. Enough of the lawsuit talk, that ship sailed with Columbus and move on.

[MafiaMan]

That is true. Enough of the lawsuit talk, that ship sailed with Columbus and move on.

Careful! Let's not bring Columbus into the discussion...and risk additional NCAA sanctions!

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

That is true. Enough of the lawsuit talk, that ship sailed with Columbus and move on.

 

Like it or not, you've got an ambiguous contract sitting out there, and if one party doesn't like what the other party is doing, you're bound to end up in a lawsuit.  I have not once advocated suing the NCAA to establish a right to go nameless; I am merely suggesting that IF UND chooses to go that route, one of the NCAA's few options is to sue.

 

Also, do not forget that under at least one fair interpretation, UND is already technically in breach.  The 'deadline' in the settlement agreement has come and gone and we have not yet 'announced a transition to a new name.'  UND does not have a contractual right to stretch out the process, any more than it has a contractual right not to pick a name.  It's ultimately the NCAA's call whether to push the issue.  I don't think they will; they (and their goofy nickname policy) already won.

[darell1976]

Like it or not, you've got an ambiguous contract sitting out there, and if one party doesn't like what the other party is doing, you're bound to end up in a lawsuit.  I have not once advocated suing the NCAA to establish a right to go nameless; I am merely suggesting that IF UND chooses to go that route, one of the NCAA's few options is to sue.

 

Also, do not forget that under at least one fair interpretation, UND is already technically in breach.  The 'deadline' in the settlement agreement has come and gone and we have not yet 'announced a transition to a new name.'  UND does not have a contractual right to stretch out the process, any more than it has a contractual right not to pick a name.  It's ultimately the NCAA's call whether to push the issue.  I don't think they will; they (and their goofy nickname policy) already won.

The NCAA relaxed on the 2011 deadline because:

1. The state law debacle ate up most of that time and messed up the timeline

2. UND did indeed retire the Sioux name and has made an effort to begin the renaming process

 

If the NCAA sees UND stopping that process and announce they will be known as just UND with no nickname in sight, I believe the NCAA will slap UND with sanctions and make us equals to Alcorn State.

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

Yes, and we were in tin foil hat territory in 2005. And we said then it'd have to go to an Association-wide vote. Instead, the NCAA Executive Committee got vast new powers handed to it by membership vote after all of this.

Those powers, as you say, given to the Executive Committee are arbitrary and capricioius. If the Exec Comm decides it's a critical association-wide issue they can act.

Look in the mirror and ask yourself: Do you trust the NCAA Exec Comm?

Pretend it's 2005 all over again and ask yourself: Can they really force a school to do that?

Nothing's changed with the NCAA and how they do business. They get a "mission" or cause celeb in their heads and they go after it ruthlessly. I'd rather keep clear of their radar by controlling what's our to control.

 

I will give you this:  if the NCAA pushes back now, then all the UND people who were mocked for complaining that the NCAA was out to get them will be completely vindicated.

 

Circa 2005, the 'hostile and abusive' nickname policy was directed at how many schools?  At least a dozen, right?  And the whole thing was spun as good vs evil.  There were villains (schools using nicknames) and victims (socioeconomically depressed citizens of color).  In come the heroic NCAA knights in shining armor.  A crusade that perhaps some moderates could even justify.

 

Fast forward to 2015.  How many member institutions would be affected by a mandatory nickname rule?  One?  And who's the victim now?  Nobody, except maybe the NCAA's pride?  Not so much a crusade as a campaign of retribution against one small little school in the Northern Plains that dared to fight, and then backed down anyway.  Is the NCAA prepared to take on that sore-winner/bully role, especially now, given all that's on its plate?

[darell1976]

Careful! Let's not bring Columbus into the discussion...and risk additional NCAA sanctions!

Oops my bad, especially when his holiday is being renamed.

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

The NCAA relaxed on the 2011 deadline because:

1. The state law debacle ate up most of that time and messed up the timeline

2. UND did indeed retire the Sioux name and has made an effort to begin the renaming process

 

If the NCAA sees UND stopping that process and announce they will be known as just UND with no nickname in sight, I believe the NCAA will slap UND with sanctions and make us equals to Alcorn State.

 

That's what I keep waiting for someone to explain.  "Sanctions" for violating what NCAA rule?  Is there a "no pissing us off" misdemeanor?

[darell1976]

I will give you this:  if the NCAA pushes back now, then all the UND people who were mocked for complaining that the NCAA was out to get them will be completely vindicated.

 

Circa 2005, the 'hostile and abusive' nickname policy was directed at how many schools?  At least a dozen, right?  And the whole thing was spun as good vs evil.  There were villains (schools using nicknames) and victims (socioeconomically depressed citizens of color).  In come the heroic NCAA knights in shining armor.  A crusade that perhaps some moderates could even justify.

 

Fast forward to 2015.  How many member institutions would be affected by a mandatory nickname rule?  One?  And who's the victim now?  Nobody, except maybe the NCAA's pride?  Not so much a crusade as a campaign of retribution against one small little school in the Northern Plains that dared to fight, and then backed down anyway.  Is the NCAA prepared to take on that sore-winner/bully role, especially now, given all that's on its plate?

I wouldn't put it past the NCAA. They are known to kick the little guy and kiss ass to the big guys (aka Florida St)

[darell1976]

That's what I keep waiting for someone to explain.  "Sanctions" for violating what NCAA rule?  Is there a "no pissing us off" misdemeanor?

Its in the settlement and don't tell me the NCAA won't look at that and say "hey, you are to have a nickname, we gave you a break on the date but if you are permanently going without a name, you are in violation of that part of the settlement". As far as the NCAA and probably legal scholars are concerned UND has been in violation of that settlement since 2011. 

[Goon]

 Adopting a stupid nickname for the sake of "marketing" will only result in the marketing of an stupid nickname which will only result in terrible sales.  That whole marketing meme is code speak for simply adopting a new nickname quickly in order to have one and, more important for the "synaptically challenged academics" like Kelley, to say that we aren't the "Fighting Sioux" anymore (even though we aren't right now).  

 

Bravo, I agree with what you said. This is how we're going to end up with a stupid name like "Sun Dogs" if we the stakeholders don't slow this down. 

[darell1976]

Bravo, I agree with what you said. This is how we're going to end up with a stupid name like "Sun Dogs" if we the stakeholders don't slow this down. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_Sundogs

 

 

Great Plains College SunDogs

http://www.greatplainscollege.ca/athletics/

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

Its in the settlement and don't tell me the NCAA won't look at that and say "hey, you are to have a nickname, we gave you a break on the date but if you are permanently going without a name, you are in violation of that part of the settlement". As far as the NCAA and probably legal scholars are concerned UND has been in violation of that settlement since 2011. 

 

You and I are speaking the same language.  However, I want to be clear about one thing:  if the NCAA is torqued about some aspect of the settlement agreement, its only legal remedy is to sue for a breach of contract.  Sanctions on members would only be available for violations of NCAA rules and policies.  

 

I have said all along that there is not likely to be a meaningful economic remedy for the NCAA, because they haven't really been damaged.  And I don't think a court would order the extraordinary relief compelling UND to select a nickname.  

 

If there isn't already a mandatory nickname rule, sanctions are completely off the table.

 

My prediction:  NCAA won't sue, and if they do, nominal money damages and maybe a rebuke by the court for wasting its time.

[darell1976]

You and I are speaking the same language.  However, I want to be clear about one thing:  if the NCAA is torqued about some aspect of the settlement agreement, its only legal remedy is to sue for a breach of contract.  Sanctions on members would only be available for violations of NCAA rules and policies.  

 

I have said all along that there is not likely to be a meaningful economic remedy for the NCAA, because they haven't really been damaged.  And I don't think a court would order the extraordinary relief compelling UND to select a nickname.  

 

If there isn't already a mandatory nickname rule, sanctions are completely off the table.

 

My prediction:  NCAA won't sue, and if they do, nominal money damages and maybe a rebuke by the court for wasting its time.

If the NCAA wasn't so stupid they would have seen the damage in merchandising with the retirement of the Sioux logo. It was a money maker compared to the plain North Dakota name and interlocking ND logo. But thats the ignorance of the NC$$ (kinda like having the west regional in Fargo instead of a money maker like the Ralph).

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_Sundogs

 

 

Great Plains College SunDogs

http://www.greatplainscollege.ca/athletics/

 

The top one looks like an obstructed bowel.

[The Sicatoka]

The NCAA somehow got $60,000,000.00 out of Penn State when they had no, none, zero, standing to sanction Penn State for what was a criminal situation.

As I've said already, the NCAA membership has given the NCAA Exec Comm broad ranging powers to quickly deal with key issues (as defined by the Exec Comm). If and when they get the whim they'll sanction and punish first, and figure out if they had standing to do so later. That's what the history says.

And let me be clear: I don't trust the NCAA and especially its Executive Committee. There's no good reason to trust them.

Don't ever put it past the NCAA to miss a chance to kick the little guy to look tough and meaningful to the media and the rest of the Association. Proof? They nailed Alaska last week and now Weber State this week for things that are a drop in the bucket compared to the scandel at North Carolina (which has had nothing come down on them yet).

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

The NCAA somehow got $60,000,000.00 out of Penn State when they had no, none, zero, standing to sanction Penn State for what was a criminal situation.

As I've said already, the NCAA membership has given the NCAA Exec Comm broad ranging powers to quickly deal with key issues (as defined by the Exec Comm). If and when they get the whim they'll sanction and punish first, and figure out if they had standing to do so later. That's what the history says.

And let me be clear: I don't trust the NCAA and especially its Executive Committee. There's no good reason to trust them.

Don't ever put it past the NCAA to miss a chance to kick the little guy to look tough and meaningful to the media and the rest of the Association. Proof? They nailed Alaska last week and now Weber State this week for things that are a drop in the bucket compared to the scandel at North Carolina (which has had nothing come down on them yet).

 

In each of the cases you reference, there was (arguably) a violation of NCAA rules.  Whether it was eligibility or academic or whatever.  I don't recall the basis for PSU - was it some kind of lack of institutional control or FB program oversight?  And IIRC, PSU rolled over and took it in the shorts for PR reasons...not so much as a peep in its own defense AND it consented to the ridiculous monetary sanction.  At any rate, there was an established rule that was perceived to have been broken.

 

The hammer hath not yet fallen on UNC...that could be devastating.  SMU/death penalty kind of stuff, based on what I've read.

 

The missing piece with UND is that - at best (worst?) - there is a perceived slight.  No rules violation whatsoever.  A garden variety breach of contract (even proving that would be an uphill fight).

 

And don't get me started on my villain-victim analogy.  Victims and villains aplenty in some of the listed cases, especially at PSU (* understatement of the century).  Hero NCAA will need a new shirt when it's done patting itself on the back.

[JohnboyND7]

Flickertails.

 

Nickname for the state.  Hate on it as much as you want.  Former nickname for teh Flagship as well.  Unique....which apparently is a big deal to the UND fans who compensate for personal shortcomings by having big trucks.

[CMSioux]

That's what I keep waiting for someone to explain.  "Sanctions" for violating what NCAA rule?  Is there a "no pissing us off" misdemeanor?

Yes but a reminder - piss off the NCAA and they have ways of getting even - no hosting, if you are on the bubble you don't get in, the "if we catch you wearing any Sioux clothing your team goes home episode. I wouldn't doubt if they would threaten to take away any hosting UND has already been awarded.

[darell1976]

Flickertails.

Nickname for the state. Hate on it as much as you want. Former nickname for teh Flagship as well. Unique....which apparently is a big deal to the UND fans who compensate for personal shortcomings by having big trucks.

Kelley said we won't be the Flickertails again. We will leave the rodents to Minnesota.

[yababy8]

The settlement agreement is an imperfect document, and there is no way that the drafters could have anticipated the way this played out. The timeline for action in the agreement is particularly suspect, as there were significant delays occasioned by legislation, litigation, and God knows what else. Heck, the NCAA already allowed a huge concession with respect to imagery at REA, so who knows where things will ultimately settle?

In light of events now passed, it is virtually impossible to interpret and apply the agreement literally. You have to go beyond the four corners to breathe some meaningful life into the document. The quoted clause about returning UND to the infamous "list" is meaningless because we are no longer engaged in conduct that would place us on said list. Loophole city!

My take is that the parties just assumed that there would be a new name, but that neither party expected there to be even the slightest possibility that UND would seriously consider going nameless. The total absence (*presumed but not confirmed) of an NCAA rule affirmatively requiring that members have a nickname pretty much forecloses "sanctions." NCAA's only options if UND stalls out would then be to (1) let UND slide, (2) sue for a breach of contract, or (3) enact a new rule, which they might not even be able to enforce retroactively.

Thank you!!

Hey PTSD crowd read this like 27 times!

We need you to stop being scared. Why?, because you all pandering to these fears is going to cost us.

Go Spirit!!!

[jdub27]

Bravo, I agree with what you said. This is how we're going to end up with a stupid name like "Sun Dogs" if we the stakeholders don't slow this down. 

Slow down?  Huh?  The nickname has been retired for almost 2 full years.  And we have surveys about processes of a committee to discuss another committee.  Not sure how much more than can drag out this process.