Dartmouth joins the anti-Sioux crusade

[redwing77]

What do you SUK at or on?

Don't feed the troll. Thanks

[administrator]

Because you already perpetuate a hostile and abusive environment. ... You folks are doing a good job of seeing to it that I see the most privileged side of ugly.

Keep the discussion about the topic at hand ("Dartmouth joins the anti-Sioux crusade"). Just attacking other posters with whom you disagree is why your posts are getting called out as "trolls" and ignored. Engage in a civil discussion without personal attacks, and people will be glad to engage you in such; otherwise kindly leave.

[lzgoalie35]

Oh that is ridiculous. You know where the harm is -- you and all of Grand Forks -- well, North Dakota for that matter -- have been told that it DOES HURT. If a child says, stop, that hurts, we all teach them to quit doing the thing that hurts. Since I have been hurt, over and over on this logo stuff, why can't you just quit bullying and give up that name? Also, my children have been hurt over it so that makes you all guilty of child endangerment, so to speak. If you have not heard about an incident directly related to the logo, that is because SOMEONE has covered it up. This is all logical reasoning.

Talking down to Sioux fans on a Sioux fans forum does not help your "logical reasoning" argument. Your analysis for associating children with a logo debate is quite low on the ladder of 'logical arguments.' If you have been hurt, remove yourself from the apparent problem you have with us. If your children have been hurt by it, do the same. You can control, to an extent, what you see and hear every day about "hostile and abusive" nicknames. If I'm misunderstood, it is up to the parent to take care of their children, so are you not somewhat responsible for what they are exposed to? Your libel is quite inappropriate in calling North Dakotans guilty of child endangerment.

If you want to make it a problem, then you can certainly make a stink, like you have, in these forums. Granted, you may be one for insisting 'facts' without basis (covering up incidents...I'm not sure that any one person in ND doesn't know about the Sioux name debate), but if you were in Grand Forks, you'd have to look long and hard to see blatant racism toward the Sioux tribe, name, or logo.

Creating a problem without suggesting a solution besides assuming false facts and saying 'change the name'...doesn't sound like you have any basis for argument.

[Goon]

Poor baby. Clear liquids, rest and no dairy products until it stops.

*oh, oh, am I being a racist against dairy farmers now?*

No beer either.

[Goon]

Florida State ...

Fully endorsed, and approved, by the NCAA.

Funny thing I haven't seen anything like it at UND. There isn't any evidence at all. Implied evidence is not evidence.

[dakotadan]

Does anybody else think that dumbpeople's postings attacking everyone seem rather familiar?

[Goon]

Does anybody else think that dumbpeople's postings attacking everyone seem rather familiar?

Yeah but they would never let GK back into the system. His tactics seem real familiar. I am sure they are monitoring IP addresses and would shut him down right away.

[Sioux-cia]

Yeah but they would never let GK back into the system. His tactics seem real familiar. I am sure they are monitoring IP addresses and would shut him down right away.

dumbpeople is spouting the same senseless rhetoric that GK starting posting shortly after he became a member here. Baseless accusation, referring to non-documented racist events, insulting SS.com members etc. I don't believe dumb is GK but I do believe that GK is her mentor. I find this really sad because in GK's last posts and actions have led me to truly believe he is mentally ill.

Name Change advocates believe strongly in changing the name. Name Supporters believe strongly in keeping the name. The name change issue has been discussed on this forum for years. Some Name Changers come here to 'give a their point of view' as if we have never considered them or heard them before they bring them to this forum. When we don't agree with them, we're racists, we're attacking them, etc. RW77 hit it right on the nail head in his post.

[undsportsfan]

Talking down to Sioux fans on a Sioux fans forum does not help your "logical reasoning" argument. Your analysis for associating children with a logo debate is quite low on the ladder of 'logical arguments.' If you have been hurt, remove yourself from the apparent problem you have with us. If your children have been hurt by it, do the same. You can control, to an extent, what you see and hear every day about "hostile and abusive" nicknames. If I'm misunderstood, it is up to the parent to take care of their children, so are you not somewhat responsible for what they are exposed to? Your libel is quite inappropriate in calling North Dakotans guilty of child endangerment.

If you want to make it a problem, then you can certainly make a stink, like you have, in these forums. Granted, you may be one for insisting 'facts' without basis (covering up incidents...I'm not sure that any one person in ND doesn't know about the Sioux name debate), but if you were in Grand Forks, you'd have to look long and hard to see blatant racism toward the Sioux tribe, name, or logo.

Creating a problem without suggesting a solution besides assuming false facts and saying 'change the name'...doesn't sound like you have any basis for argument.

So anyone who's children have witnessed racism here in Grand Forks should move away? I can't control what is said to my children if they are at school. Or in the playground. So that means I should home school them?

This summer, a child was playing in my backyard with other children. Then they made fun of him because he was a boy with braids. Then they said something about that's how all Sioux look. I took the children aside and discussed the situation and that it wasn't right. During the discussion, one of the kids said something about the Fighting Sioux and that's all he knows about Indians. So I took him under my wing and taught him a little more. All kids walked away with learning something. However, once again, it was another incident that came in from the logo apparently.

And as stated/asked, "You can control, to an extent, what you see and hear every day about "hostile and abusive" nicknames. If I'm misunderstood, it is up to the parent to take care of their children, so are you not somewhat responsible for what they are exposed to? "

My response is to that, that is why the nickname needs to cease to exist. Then that doorway will be shut. Yes there other doorways, etc... And that's why when this issue is discussed, we should attempt to be mature about it. I don't agree with people coming in here and have their drive by comments either.

And this is a forum, I assumed we discuss and debate. How can you debate if there's no one on the opposing side of the discussion? And so, that's why I'm responding.

Yes there are members of this ss.com that agree that the name will eventually change and for the better. Unfortunately they do not want to be verbally attacked for having an opinion, they've expressed it to me in private, yet they have also asked me to keep from using their names. And that I have done, and will remain to do. Unlike other's who've tried to reveal my identity and post personal information on here. People have been told to refrain from personally attacking others, but certain people have been able to continue to do so without any form of reprimand.

[Goon]

dumbpeople is spouting the same senseless rhetoric that GK starting posting shortly after he became a member here. Baseless accusation, referring to non-documented racist events, insulting SS.com members etc. I don't believe dumb is GK but I do believe that GK is her mentor. I find this really sad because in GK's last posts and actions have led me to truly believe he is mentally ill.

Name Change advocates believe strongly in changing the name. Name Supporters believe strongly in keeping the name. The name change issue has been discussed on this forum for years. Some Name Changers come here to 'give a their point of view' as if we have never considered them or heard them before they bring them to this forum. When we don't agree with them, we're racists, we're attacking them, etc. RW77 hit it right on the nail head in his post.

Well this does it looks real familiar, scary isn't it? I mean really, I read GK's blog and he is saying a lot of the same types of things only without the profanity.

[Diggler]

RW77 hit it right on the nail head in his post.

I'll take 'Words you never thought would be spoken' for $2000, Alex.

[administrator]

I find this really sad because in GK's last posts and actions have led me to truly believe he is mentally ill.

To everyone -- as requested above, please refocus the discussion in this thread on its topic ("Dartmouth joins the anti-Sioux crusade") rather than personal attacks on other current and former members.

[gjw007]

All I can gather from this is the situation at Dartmouth is pretty sad.

[HockeyMom]

All I can gather from this is the situation at Dartmouth is pretty sad.

I believe that the old saying- the grass isn't always greener on the other side fits in pretty well.

[dakotadan]

So anyone who's children have witnessed racism here in Grand Forks should move away? I can't control what is said to my children if they are at school. Or in the playground. So that means I should home school them?

So you are saying there are racist people in schools? So then using the logic of some name-changers, we should close all schools.

Now that wouldn't stop racism now would it?

This summer, a child was playing in my backyard with other children. Then they made fun of him because he was a boy with braids. Then they said something about that's how all Sioux look. I took the children aside and discussed the situation and that it wasn't right. During the discussion, one of the kids said something about the Fighting Sioux and that's all he knows about Indians. So I took him under my wing and taught him a little more. All kids walked away with learning something. However, once again, it was another incident that came in from the logo apparently.

You took a perfect opportunity to teach some people about a different group of people. For that I applaud you, we should all take these opportunities. But couldn't we also use the Sioux nickname and logo as an opportunity to teach people on a national stage about American Indians of the midwest and north central plains? How about instead of constantly battleing each other, both sides work together to ensure that the name is used with respect and honor. To me that seems like one of the best options for everyone. The fact that these young children did not know more about American Indians is not the fault of the nickname.

[iramurphy]

So anyone who's children have witnessed racism here in Grand Forks should move away? I can't control what is said to my children if they are at school. Or in the playground. So that means I should home school them?

This summer, a child was playing in my backyard with other children. Then they made fun of him because he was a boy with braids. Then they said something about that's how all Sioux look. I took the children aside and discussed the situation and that it wasn't right. During the discussion, one of the kids said something about the Fighting Sioux and that's all he knows about Indians. So I took him under my wing and taught him a little more. All kids walked away with learning something. However, once again, it was another incident that came in from the logo apparently.

And as stated/asked, "You can control, to an extent, what you see and hear every day about "hostile and abusive" nicknames. If I'm misunderstood, it is up to the parent to take care of their children, so are you not somewhat responsible for what they are exposed to? "

My response is to that, that is why the nickname needs to cease to exist. Then that doorway will be shut. Yes there other doorways, etc... And that's why when this issue is discussed, we should attempt to be mature about it. I don't agree with people coming in here and have their drive by comments either.

And this is a forum, I assumed we discuss and debate. How can you debate if there's no one on the opposing side of the discussion? And so, that's why I'm responding.

Yes there are members of this ss.com that agree that the name will eventually change and for the better. Unfortunately they do not want to be verbally attacked for having an opinion, they've expressed it to me in private, yet they have also asked me to keep from using their names. And that I have done, and will remain to do. Unlike other's who've tried to reveal my identity and post personal information on here. People have been told to refrain from personally attacking others, but certain people have been able to continue to do so without any form of reprimand.

I think UNDsportsfan brings up reasonable points. I have emailed private communication and I agree with her that the name will likely change and if that is what she strongly believes in, then keep working to make it change. I think the reason the other boys made fun of the child with braids was because he was different and they didn't understand. The Sioux logo doesn't have braids so I think the child may have been mistaken in associating the logo if that is what he did. This is not unusual behavior for children. It also occurs both ways from American Indian kids toward blacks, causcasions and hispanic kids. I think this is a good example of how almost anything negative directed at American Indians can rightly or wrongly get associated with the logo issue.

I also think the multiple examples of hostility and racist behavior at Dartmouth is evidence that the negative or racist behavior here at UND, when it occurs, would very likely occur regardless of the logo. It occurs because of ignorance and bigotry rather than the logo.

The use of the Fighting Sioux name could be used to bridge our differences and make things better, but I don't think there will be any compromise on behalf of the opponents. They are very close to achieving their goal of forcing the change and unless the many American Indians who support keeping the logo are willing to put up with the abuse and harrassment they will get from the opponents of the name, UND will change the name at some time in the future. I will predict there will be no improvement in the lives of our American Indian students just because the name changes and likely there will be negative backlash for quite some time.

It is too bad that people on both side of this issue weren't smart enough years ago to do whatever necessary to have prevented this from becoming such a contentious issue.

[Sioux-cia]

It is too bad that people on both side of this issue weren't smart enough years ago to do whatever necessary to have prevented this from becoming such a contentious issue.

I think they thought they had but I agree with your statement.

[Tommiejo]

I think they thought they had but I agree with your statement.

Hey that makes two of us.

[Riverman]

"

My response is to that, that is why the nickname needs to cease to exist. Then that doorway will be shut.

And this is a forum, I assumed we discuss and debate. How can you debate if there's no one on the opposing side of the discussion?

Did we ever find out why it is ok for schools on the reservations to keep using said nicknames?

Or undsportsfan, will you choose to ignore this simple question.

[Sioux-cia]

Did we ever find out why it is ok for schools on the reservations to keep using said nicknames?

Or undsportsfan, will you choose to ignore this simple question.

Name and Logo supporters are told to support the change and work with the Name Change Supporters. Did we ever get a straight answer to the many times asked question, "When UND wins the lawsuit, will the name change supporters accept the outcome and work with UND to make any changes that will make the name and logo more acceptable to those few who oppose it?" I already know the answer but would still be interested in an answer that is not prefaced with all the same rhetoric that is a non-answer. A simple Yes or No will suffice.

IMHO, the use of Native American name and logo for athletic teams is because the majority (as had been shown by polls ad nauseaum) of Native Americans do not perceive them to be hostile or abusive. They are proud of the athletes who are represented by these names and logos by ANYONE.

How many times does it need saying?? The minority of a minority (a few Native Americans who presume to speak for all Native Americans), no one, has the right to 'not be offended'!! The majority of Native Americans who have been polled by independent repected poll agencies are NOT opposed to Native American name and logo use for athletic teams.

It's been stated because someone looks different, the name and logo is used to throw out racial slurs. And, if they name and logo are changed, then when a racial slur is hurled they will know that it is because they are a Native American, not a sports fan. That kind of convoluted 'reasoning' makes no sense to me. A racial slur is a racial slur and the hurler is not going to be deterred because there is no name or logo to hide behind

Native Americans aren't the only minority group who look different and are subject to racism. My older son has had long hair his entire life. His hair is still long, down to mid back. He is dark and surprisingly looks a lot like the Fighting Sioux logo. Is he hiding behind 'they're all racist, that's why I can't, I don't, no one will let me, yada yada yada.' No. He has a VERY healthy self esteem and accepts responsibility for his own actions and if someone attempts to put him down they are unsuccessful. I am proud to say that both my sons, brown, Hispanic looking boys, have healthy self esteems. They are comfortable in any any group, black, white, brown, red, yellow, etc. Why? Because while they were raised to have pride in where they come from, they were also taught that we are all God's creatures regardless of color. I pity the children who are raised in hate of other cultures, who are raised to believe the world is against them, who have parents who in the name of their race are racist.

Well, enough ....., for now.

[Chewey]

Name and Logo supporters are told to support the change and work with the Name Change Supporters. Did we ever get a straight answer to the many times asked question, "When UND wins the lawsuit, will the name change supporters accept the outcome and work with UND to make any changes that will make the name and logo more acceptable to those few who oppose it?" I already know the answer but would still be interested in an answer that is not prefaced with all the same rhetoric that is a non-answer. A simple Yes or No will suffice.

IMHO, the use of Native American name and logo for athletic teams is because the majority (as had been shown by polls ad nauseaum) of Native Americans do not perceive them to be hostile or abusive. They are proud of the athletes who are represented by these names and logos by ANYONE.

How many times does it need saying?? The minority of a minority (a few Native Americans who presume to speak for all Native Americans), no one, has the right to 'not be offended'!! The majority of Native Americans who have been polled by independent repected poll agencies are NOT opposed to Native American name and logo use for athletic teams.

It's been stated because someone looks different, the name and logo is used to throw out racial slurs. And, if they name and logo are changed, then when a racial slur is hurled they will know that it is because they are a Native American, not a sports fan. That kind of convoluted 'reasoning' makes no sense to me. A racial slur is a racial slur and the hurler is not going to be deterred because there is no name or logo to hide behind

Native Americans aren't the only minority group who look different and are subject to racism. My older son has had long hair his entire life. His hair is still long, down to mid back. He is dark and surprisingly looks a lot like the Fighting Sioux logo. Is he hiding behind 'they're all racist, that's why I can't, I don't, no one will let me, yada yada yada.' No. He has a VERY healthy self esteem and accepts responsibility for his own actions and if someone attempts to put him down they are unsuccessful. I am proud to say that both my sons, brown, Hispanic looking boys, have healthy self esteems. They are comfortable in any any group, black, white, brown, red, yellow, etc. Why? Because while they were raised to have pride in where they come from, they were also taught that we are all God's creatures regardless of color. I pity the children who are raised in hate of other cultures, who are raised to believe the world is against them, who have parents who in the name of their race are racist.

Well, enough ....., for now.

Agreed. The other side can't offer anything other than "racist events" "racist treatment" conjured up in their own little circles. GK is a good example of this in that he ghosted himself as some third party, made entirely hateful and racist remarks and conducted himself in a reprehensible way all to forward the agenda of the name change crowd. That's pretty sick and manipulative if you ask me. Of course, the name changes whole argument is based not on fact but on manipulation. It's ok for them to be bigots because they define what constitutes bigotry? The fact that our higher institutions of learning, so-called, have produced people who use such convoluted logic with straight faces -- not to mention the professors who agree with them -- speaks volumes.

[GeauxSioux]

Maybe the NCAA should be looking into the President of Dartmouth's lack of institutional control.

Dartmouth paper: cover of Indian scalper was mistake

The two gave no ground, however, on the Review's criticism of recent college actions -- particularly Harper's college-wide apology for scheduling a hockey game later this month against the University of North Dakota's "Fighting Sioux." North Dakota is one of several schools whose use of American Indian imagery has been labeled "hostile and abusive" by the National Collegiate Athletic Association.

"There is such a thing as minding your own business. There is also such a thing as achieving a bit of perspective, even a sense of humor," the two wrote. "There are no `racists' or people who `hate' at The Dartmouth Review.

[Goon]

I agree with her that the name will likely change and if that is what she strongly believes in.

I was wondering why you have come to this conclusion? Not mean to flame just wondering?

I personally don't see us changing the logo not in our lifetimes, where is the money for the logos to removed from the arena going to come from. Unless the NCAA beats us in court and I don't see that happening, this is going to be a long drawn out fight and Even if we lose we are going Division One and won't have a playoff game in any sport but men's hockey for at least 5 years. Beside if UND wins I think other school will join the fray to exact some pay back on the NCAA for its over stepping its bounds.

I think when its all said and done I think the Name Change people are not going to get the result they are looking for. As we can see from Dartmouth, changing the name did nothing for fighting racism. changing the name might actually cause resentment for the people that were screaming about the name the loudest. I am not saying this is right, just reality. It appears its worse, sad thing is they are a ivy league school and they are not looking good. I don't see any of the problems they are having here.

[Goon]

Maybe the NCAA should be looking into the President of Dartmouth's lack of institutional control.

Dartmouth paper: cover of Indian scalper was mistake

No kidding, who is hostile and abusive?

[Tommiejo]

No kidding, who is hostile and abusive?

Hey Goon I agree with you on that one & also those folks at Dartmouth wouldn't even know the truth even if there were standing in a fresh pile of it. Also before I forget GO GATORS Chop on those Buckeyes. Yes I do have reservation for Jan 8 in AZ. I'm not going to miss this one for the world.