UND Enrollment

[Gothmog]

Kids realized they couldn't get into UND, so they applied to NDSU. That also explains UND's acceptance percentage edged back up a little, as those long shots simply didn't apply, as they had earlier.

Actually, this argument works better the other way around. Marginal students have become accustomed to applying to UND, because of their past lower admission standards.

[LeftyZL]

UND and NDSU have identical acceptance criteria. It's been that way for a few years now. NDSU is not accepting any less-qualified students than UND is getting, because the criteria is the same. It's that UND is recieving a lot more applicants who are not qualified to be college students than NDSU. Obvuisly, that's why UND turns away more students. In fact, one could say that this is happening because lately, more of the less-successful HS students who are unsure of their college entry qualifications are now applying to UND thinking that it will be easier to get in there than NDSU.

Your statement doesn't hold a lot of water since, as you stated, both schools have virtually the same acceptance criteria. I just looked up both, and NDSU has a slightly lower standard SAT score for a high school student with a 2.5 GPA than UND does. One could say maybe UND is receiving more applicants because people from ND high school students are tired of the Fargo arrogance that the city has shown at times. But I'm just one person.

On another note, if kids think that UND has easier college entry qualifications, as you stated, what are our high school counselors telling the students? Is it too complicated to look into a book or go online? Just pure laziness.

[TheBisonator]

Your statement doesn't hold a lot of water since, as you stated, both schools have virtually the same acceptance criteria. I just looked up both, and NDSU has a slightly lower standard SAT score for a high school student with a 2.5 GPA than UND does.

Average ACT scores are almost identical between both schools with NDSU at 23.0 and UND with 23.4 (the number I recall). Nobody takes the SATs in this part of the country. I couldn't even find a high school in the Twin Cities that offered an SAT test back in the late 90's. SAT's are irrelevent.

One could say maybe UND is receiving more applicants because people from ND high school students are tired of the Fargo arrogance that the city has shown at times.

Thanks for giving me that good laugh!! I had a hard day today, and needed something to take the edge off.

[SiouxForever]

Average ACT scores are almost identical between both schools with NDSU at 23.0 and UND with 23.4 (the number I recall). Nobody takes the SATs in this part of the country. I couldn't even find a high school in the Twin Cities that offered an SAT test back in the late 90's. SAT's are irrelevent.

Thanks for giving me that good laugh!! I had a hard day today, and needed something to take the edge off.

It's called walking to class in the winter when its below zero, enough said son!

[dallassiouxfan]

If you make that drastic of cuts, I think it would make more sense to keep Devils Lake and Williston over Bismarck. It would be much easier to make use of the Bismarck State Campus for other purposes, like state agencies. It would also help those communities maintain their status as regional centers.

I have to respectfully disagree.

[The Sicatoka]

Read the details in the admissions standards for both. The minimums for guaranteed acceptance is what you're quoting. Most assuredly not all of those applications have met those criteria (unless 23s on the ACT are like oxygen in the air).

So what you're really looking at is the raw number that applied and the raw number that the school chose to accept. It would be a better comparison if the number of "mandatory acceptances" (met all guaranteed criteria) was pulled out of the numbers (or at least shown to analyze) to see what each is really choosing (or accepting) to accept. Either way, 89%? The girls (ahem) "working" on Hennepin have better selectivity***.

UND

Number of applicants 3,698

Percent admitted 73.7%

Percent admitted who enrolled

Full-time 69.0% Part-time 0.8%

NDSU

Number of applicants 3,959

Percent admitted 89.0%

Percent admitted who enrolled

Full-time 56.8% Part-time 2.0%

Out east they have phrases for 89%: the "fog-a-mirror*" acceptance criteria or "safety school**".

* If you can fog a mirror you're in.

** The one you apply to as a fail-safe so you're sure you can say you were admitted somewhere. New Hampshire is continually called this by BC and BU.

*** Or at least that's what Rick's always complaining about.

[Hammersmith]

Well, Sic's comment is going to pull one more post out of me. I don't know why there's a small difference, but www.collegeboard.com has the slightly different acceptance numbers of 87%/NDSU vs. 74%/UND. I'm going to use those numbers since they also provide the detailed enrollment numbers I'm going to tack on at the bottom of this post. I think one of the reasons UND's number is lower is because UND has several prominent programs that are restricted initial enrollment. The med, law, and aviation(I think) programs all approve or reject your application immediately. NDSU's major restricted enrollment programs(pharm/arch) make their decisions after one or two years of classes. While it doesn't make up the entire difference, I think it's a significant contributer. Also, NDSU is in a growth phase while UND is not; that also makes a difference. As to the comparable quality of our respective student bodies, try the following stats. As you can see, the campuses are just worlds apart.

NDSU

ACT Composite Midldle 50%: 20-25

Average GPA: 3.33

Percent applicants admitted: 87%

• 46% In-state students
  
• 54% Out-of-state students
  
• 2% Part-time students
  
• 45% Women
  
• 55% Men
  
  • 16% in top 10th of graduating class
    
  • 40% in top quarter of graduating class
    
  • 74% in top half of graduating class
    
    • 27% had h.s. GPA of 3.75 and higher
      
    • 18% had h.s. GPA between 3.5 and 3.74
      
    • 18% had h.s. GPA between 3.25 and 3.49
      
    • 14% had h.s. GPA between 3.0 and 3.24
      
    • 19% had h.s. GPA between 2.5 and 2.99
      
    • 4% had h.s. GPA between 2.0 and 2.49
      
      
      ACT Composite Midldle 50%: 20-25
      Average GPA: 3.37
      Percent applicants admitted: 74%
      • 44% In-state students
        
      • 56% Out-of-state students
        
      • 1% Part-time students
        
      • 47% Women
        
      • 53% Men
        

      [*]16% in top 10th of graduating class

      [*]41% in top quarter of graduating class

      [*]76% in top half of graduating class

      [*]27% had h.s. GPA of 3.75 and higher

      [*]20% had h.s. GPA between 3.5 and 3.74

      [*]17% had h.s. GPA between 3.25 and 3.49

      [*]12% had h.s. GPA between 3.0 and 3.24

      [*]19% had h.s. GPA between 2.5 and 2.99

      [*]5% had h.s. GPA between 2.0 and 2.49

      stats from www.collegeboard.com (thanks Tony)

[The Sicatoka]

I think one of the reasons UND's number is lower is because UND has several prominent programs that are restricted initial enrollment. The med, law, and aviation(I think) programs all approve or reject your application immediately. NDSU's major restricted enrollment programs(pharm/arch) make their decisions after one or two years of classes.

So NDSU gets them in the door and then says "no" to their desired major where UND makes the call before they ever enroll.

That sounds in some ways like Dr. Kupchella's stated approach in his Strategic Plan II where he wants to enroll those who have the best tools to succeed so the second-year retention rate stays very high.

[Gothmog]

So NDSU gets them in the door and then says "no" to their desired major where UND makes the call before they ever enroll.

That sounds in some ways like Dr. Kupchella's stated approach in his Strategic Plan II where he wants to enroll those who have the best tools to succeed so the second-year retention rate stays very high.

The problem with your argument is that UND doesn't actually end up with a significantly more qualified student body than does NDSU. We don't know the qualifications of those that are turned down at either school. Perhaps UND simply has a higher percentage of unqualified applicants. The fact that the downturn in UND's enrollment coincides with more rigorous admission standards seems to imply that.

[Hansel]

The problem with your argument is that UND doesn't actually end up with a significantly more qualified student body than does NDSU. We don't know the qualifications of those that are turned down at either school. Perhaps UND simply has a higher percentage of unqualified applicants. The fact that the downturn in UND's enrollment coincides with more rigorous admission standards seems to imply that.

Sacramento State has a lower acceptance rate than UC-Davis, the qualifications of incoming classes are more relevant than acceptance rate IMHO

[Shawn-O]

So NDSU gets them in the door and then says "no" to their desired major where UND makes the call before they ever enroll.

That sounds in some ways like Dr. Kupchella's stated approach in his Strategic Plan II where he wants to enroll those who have the best tools to succeed so the second-year retention rate stays very high.

Since you bring up Strat Plan II, let's talk how we're doing on fall enrollment relative to that plan.

http://www.und.edu/stratplan/tables.html#9

Looks woefully short to me. Let's just take a step back and be objective for a change. On Kupchella's and Chapman's watch, NDSU has grown faster than UND, period. The constant pom-pom waving for Kupchella doesn't do anything to help matters.

[star2city]

Since you bring up Strat Plan II, let's talk how we're doing on fall enrollment relative to that plan.

http://www.und.edu/stratplan/tables.html#9

Looks woefully short to me. Let's just take a step back and be objective for a change. On Kupchella's and Chapman's watch, NDSU has grown faster than UND, period. The constant pom-pom waving for Kupchella doesn't do anything to help matters.

Give it six months, and then see if you are still complaining.

[jimdahl]

Give it six months, and then see if you are still complaining.

Maybe I'm just slow today, but I don't get it. You're looking forward six months for the final enrollment figures, Kupchella's departure, or...?

I thought Shawn-O's point was a good one -- while people are quick to point out that larger schools aren't necessarily better schools (true), and that benchmarking against NDSU is kind of silly (true), Kupchella did set specific targets for undergraduate enrollment that UND has failed to meet. The "we're happy with our current size" standard is clearly contradicted by UND's own strategic plan.

[star2city]

Maybe I'm just slow today, but I don't get it. You're looking forward six months for the final enrollment figures, Kupchella's departure, or...?

I thought Shawn-O's point was a good one -- while people are quick to point out that larger schools aren't necessarily better schools (true), and that benchmarking against NDSU is kind of silly (true), Kupchella did set specific targets for undergraduate enrollment that UND has failed to meet. The "we're happy with our current size" standard is clearly contradicted by UND's own strategic plan.

My point is that Kupchella's true legacy hasn't been written yet. I don't expect the enrollment figures to increase at all over the next six months, but I do have expectations (maybe I am too optimistic) that some announcements are forthcoming before Kupchella retires that will change perceptions.

[LeftyZL]

Since you bring up Strat Plan II, let's talk how we're doing on fall enrollment relative to that plan.

http://www.und.edu/stratplan/tables.html#9

Looks woefully short to me. Let's just take a step back and be objective for a change. On Kupchella's and Chapman's watch, NDSU has grown faster than UND, period. The constant pom-pom waving for Kupchella doesn't do anything to help matters.

Off-Topic Question...When looking at President Kupchella's Strategic Plan for the University, under Table 18 it states "Projects for the Future or Under Construction"...Is there any way to get an updated list of those goals since so many of the projects are just listed as proposed?

[Shawn-O]

My point is that Kupchella's true legacy hasn't been written yet. I don't expect the enrollment figures to increase at all over the next six months, but I do have expectations (maybe I am too optimistic) that some announcements are forthcoming before Kupchella retires that will change perceptions.

If the announcements are in regard to the lawsuit, I'll give credit where credit is due. I think he's handled the matter with the NCAA very well. Let's wait and see. My other guess would be large financial gifts? It seems to me that Tim and his team are the ones carrying the mail there, but I don't see what goes on behind the scenes.

[The Sicatoka]

My purpose in pointing to StratPlanII was to show that Kupchella didn't plan on rampant growth.

It is quite concerning that he's failed to meet even the moderate targets set forth. The low Aero number is the biggest concern. He and Smith need to get on that one. I know Smith can fix it.

[GeauxSioux]

[url=http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=177981&section=news]UND

[dakotadan]

Considering NDSU's marketing barrage and UND's utter lack of any sort of advertising in any aspect, it will not be difficult at all for NDSU to surpass UND next year.

[PCM]

Considering NDSU's marketing barrage and UND's utter lack of any sort of advertising in any aspect, it will not be difficult at all for NDSU to surpass UND next year.

I don't know how much marketing UND does in comparison to NDSU, but say it's an "utter lack of any sort of advertising in any aspect" is playing fast and loose with the facts.

[Cratter]

My purpose in pointing to StratPlanII was to show that Kupchella didn't plan on rampant growth.

It is quite concerning that he's failed to meet even the moderate targets set forth. The low Aero number is the biggest concern. He and Smith need to get on that one. I know Smith can fix it.

I also think it is a concern that they rely on Aerospace and are not expanding and exploring some growth sectors like business.

Something to think about would be how much larger NDSU would be than UND if UND did not ever start their aerospace program. One would think that UND having aerospace, the med school, and law that UND would be far larger enrollment wise than a nearby similar state university without those programs.

[Rick]

Something to think about would be how much larger NDSU would be than UND if UND did not ever start their aerospace program. One would think that UND having aerospace, the med school, and law that UND would be far larger enrollment wise than a nearby similar state university without those programs.

Michigan State is also larger than Michigan, but I don't think there is any doubt which school is more prestigious.

[Cratter]

Michigan State is also larger than Michigan, but I don't think there is any doubt which school is more prestigious.

There will always be exceptions to the rule.

Most schools want to grow. In everything: sports, financially, programs, population. If you aren't growing you are getting left behind. Even the UND President wanted "growth."

The key thing here is that UND has lost enrollment every year since 2004

I don't think that is a good trend to continue. What is the critical point for enrollment: zero?

To summarize, generally the larger the school the "more prestigious" the university. The largest school enrollment wise gets the most attention, UND. I would not want to be U of Mary, Dickinson State, et al. The University of Minnesota gets the most attention in that state. This can be said for numerous states.

[GeauxSioux]

There are some other notable exceptions regarding enrollment numbers

Auburn is larger than Alabama

Virginia Tech is larger than Virginia

NC State is larger than UNC

Miss State is larger than Ole Miss

AZ State is larger than Arizona

Oklahoma State is larger than Oklahoma

Utah Valley State is larger than both Utah and Utah State

and a little closer to home....

Montana State is larger than Montana.

South Dakota State is larger than South Dakota

More important than not being the largest school in the state is the question of why UND is not growing. Is it a lack of marketing?

Both schools were growing at approximately the same rate up until 2004, which was when NDSU moved to Division I. Is it more prestigious from a student's point of view to attend a Division I school? If that is the case, then UND's course should be corrected next year.

UND changed admissions standards a couple of years ago, which has had an effect, but the standards now are nearly the same as NDSU's. Just curious as to what others think the reason for the decline in enrollment is.

I believe that both schools have a goal to level out at 15,000 students, so eventually they will be nearly equal in terms of enrollment regardless, but UND needs to start heading that direction.

Edited September 14, 2007 by GeauxSioux

[GeauxSioux]

OUR OPINION : UND's new numbers

UND got some great news and some mildly good news this week. And it's