Fullerton Still Talking Big Sky Expansion

[Gothmog]

IYHO correct?

Why would I have a link to your opinion?

Obviously, I was explaining why it would be impossible for me to provide the link you asked for. Sorry if you misunderstood.

On second thought, if you're referring to point 3, it's a statement of fact not an opinion. I'm inviting you to disprove it by providing a link.

[nd1sufan]

This is not something that Star2City dreamed up in the last couple of months and has nothing to do with jealousy. If you look back into old threads (I don't have the time right now to do it), Star2City predicted that UNC and Denver would get invites into the Big Sky due to the Altitude Network. UNC got in and Denver was possibly was invited but rejected their invitation. Dig around. It' there.

As far as FSSN. You have to admit, that it looks appealing when shopping for a conference.

[GeauxSioux]

Wow! Star2City must have a crystal ball. How else would he have figured out the the BSC would prefer schools in large media markets within its existing footprint.

Actually, the one and only reason UNC is in the Big Sky is because they are located in Colorado.

It may be easy to say at this time, but think back a couple of years ago and the conventional wisdom had NDSU in the Big Sky. Go back into the Bisonville archives. SU fans were sure they were in the Big Sky.

[southpaw]

This is not something that Star2City dreamed up in the last couple of months and has nothing to do with jealousy. If you look back into old threads (I don't have the time right now to do it), Star2City predicted that UNC and Denver would get invites into the Big Sky due to the Altitude Network. UNC got in and Denver was possibly was invited but rejected their invitation. Dig around. It' there.

As far as FSSN. You have to admit, that it looks appealing when shopping for a conference.

Actually, the one and only reason UNC is in the Big Sky is because they are located in Colorado.

As far as FSSN is concerned, I don't see it as a help or hinderance in getting into a conference. How many people can first find the channel they are on, and secondly how many people actually tune into a sport on that network that is sponsored by the Big Sky? The only sport people actually tune in to is hockey. Perhaps if you can work out a deal to get FSSN in every household in Minneapolis, it actually may carry some weight to a conference.

[The Sicatoka]

Let's see, Grand Forks area population ~95,000, Denver area population ~2.5 million. Is Denver apples and Grand Forks oranges, or the other way around?

Did I mention Grand Forks in the question?

Answer the question: Did UNC's proximity to the Denver media market, and their agreements with various media outlets, (a) lend to, or (b) detract from UNC's chances of entrance to the Big Sky Conference?

[Bison Dan]

It may be easy to say at this time, but think back a couple of years ago and the conventional wisdom had NDSU in the Big Sky. Go back into the Bisonville archives. SU fans were sure they were in the Big Sky.

No one was sure about the BSC - wishing and hopeful. As far as fssn is concerned - how much is that costing the rea? Any school can setup something like fssn if your willing to subsidize it. As far as the BSC is concerned who knows what they're thinking? The last time they looked at expansion geography and market were what the west coast schools in the BSC were looking at. I don't see any reason now why they would want to expand. Same with the Mid Con if they didn't have a couple of teams drop out, I doubt that they would have invited the SU's in.

[MplsBison]

The Big Sky is going to expand.

Of this I have no doubt.

They need at least 1 more for non football scheduling.

My guess is they'll take the path of least resistance and add SUU.

[GeauxSioux]

Link to the thread regarding Northern Colorado and Denver to the Big Sky and the influence of Altitude Network.

UNC/Denver

What still perplexes me about the Big Sky is, if geography was the biggest deterent to invitation for both NDSU and SDSU, why have them go through all of the paper work that the Big Sky had them do to be considered? Couldn't the presidents just look at a map and say "Too far"?

Bison Dan, you are probably right that it was more wishful thinking than anything else, but I do recall reading something to the effect that the word on the street is that the Bison are a lock for the Big Sky.

[Bison Dan]

Link to the thread regarding Northern Colorado and Denver to the Big Sky and the influence of Altitude Network.

UNC/Denver

What still perplexes me about the Big Sky is, if geography was the biggest deterent to invitation for both NDSU and SDSU, why have them go through all of the paper work that the Big Sky had them do to be considered? Couldn't the presidents just look at a map and say "Too far"?

Bison Dan, you are probably right that it was more wishful thinking than anything else, but I do recall reading something to the effect that the word on the street is that the Bison are a lock for the Big Sky.

I have no doubt someone on Bisonville would say that but without anything to back it up. Like I said wishful thinking. I wonder what conference usd and auggie are hoping to get in, I haven't heard anything from them on conference. You better have deep pockets if your going to be an independent for very long.

[star2city]

BTW - The notion that FSSN will significantly ease UND's acceptance into a DI conference, or that posessing such a system would have significantly aided NDSU's transition is exactly what I am disputing. Your argument assumes the point at issue, and is therefore fallacious.

Sometimes, I do wonder if I'm stuck in some time wharp relative to 2004, only now the tables are ironically turned. The same kind of "jealousy and wishful" talk was hurled by Bison fans at my preposterous concept that UNC would get a Big Sky bid over NDSU/SDSU because of media/cable issues. Now, being consistent and using those same principles, UND with its FSSN should be obviously be of interest to the BSC. But NDSU fans, now claiming to "comprehend" media issues, ridicule the very idea that UND would be in the Big Sky because of its media capabilities. Never mind that UND with its FSSN has essentially transformed the Dakotas and NW Minnesota into a Sacramento-sized media market.

Law of Bison fan conventional wisdom: when Bison fans reach agreement, the opposite happens:

Sure things according to conventional Bison wisdom:

UND will lose to Northern Iowa, badly.

UND athletics is a basket case financially.

UND athletics will be stuck as an independent for a long, long time.

The FSSN has no impact on conference decision making.

UND has absolutely no leadership, and is doomed.

NDSU will surpass UND in stature.

Grand Forks has nothing whatsoever going for it and is destined to be a hell-hole.

The Law of Bison Fan Conventional Wisdom strongly affirms ---> The future is very bright for UND and it athletic program.

[Bison Dan]

Sometimes, I do wonder if I'm stuck in some time wharp relative to 2004, only now the tables are ironically turned. The same kind of "jealousy and wishful" talk was hurled by Bison fans at my preposterous concept that UNC would get a Big Sky bid over NDSU/SDSU because of media/cable issues. Now, being consistent and using those same principles, UND with its FSSN should be obviously be of interest to the BSC. But NDSU fans, now claiming to "comprehend" media issues, ridicule the very idea that UND would be in the Big Sky because of its media capabilities. Never mind that UND with its FSSN has essentially transformed the Dakotas and NW Minnesota into a Sacramento-sized media market.

Law of Bison fan conventional wisdom: when Bison fans reach agreement, the opposite happens:

Sure things according to conventional Bison wisdom:

UND will lose to Northern Iowa, badly.

UND athletics is a basket case financially.

UND athletics will be stuck as an independent for a long, long time.

The FSSN has no impact on conference decision making.

UND has absolutely no leadership, and is doomed.

NDSU will surpass UND in stature.

Grand Forks has nothing whatsoever going for it and is destined to be a hell-hole.

The Law of Bison Fan Conventional Wisdom strongly affirms ---> The future is very bright for UND and it athletic program.

I've never seen anyone so hung up on fssn. Do you really think that Portland or E. Wash gives a rats ass about fssn. All they care about is their bottom line and flying to the midwest for all their conference games is expensive. How does fssn put a dollar in anyones pocket in the BSC? If W. Washington or C. Washington move to DI within the next 2 years who do you'll think they'll pick? Poor unc gets little or no support from the Denver market. It's location location location for BSC.

[GeauxSioux]

If it is location, location, location, why did the Big Sky request all of this information from schools, including SDSU and NDSU, to be considered in the last expansion? As I said in my last post, wouldn't the BSC presidents just need to pull out a map and say that the Dakotas are too far and out of our "footprint"? Not trying to be a smart aleck here, just looking for some conjecture.

[Cratter]

If it is location, location, location, why did the Big Sky request all of this information from schools, including SDSU and NDSU, to be considered in the last expansion? As I said in my last post, wouldn't the BSC presidents just need to pull out a map and say that the Dakotas are too far and out of our "footprint"? Not trying to be a smart aleck here, just looking for some conjecture.

Hey now. Don't go telling Bison fans this. They actually believe geography was the reason. When in reality it was many more factors of which geography had little to do with. The Big Sky stretches from CA to MT. They don't care that much about geography. We are not talking about the former NCC here where most of the schools are within three states.

[biff]

If it is location, location, location, why did the Big Sky request all of this information from schools, including SDSU and NDSU, to be considered in the last expansion?

Becasue most BSC schools were (and probably still are) interested in expanding to the Dakotas. What some of you folks like to foget is that some were pushing for the addition of the XDSU's.

[GeauxSioux]

Becasue most BSC schools were (and probably still are) interested in expanding to the Dakotas. What some of you folks like to foget is that some were pushing for the addition of the XDSU's.

I recall the Montana State president pushing hard for the 'SU's. But it would seem as the commissioner, Fullerton could have informally polled the presidents to know if there was a remote possiblity for the 'SU's, instead of making them jump through hoops. As I recall the invitation has to be unanimous when UNC got in. If geography was the main drawback, why didn't Fullerton know that some presidents would say no?

[FargoBison]

The vote for NDSU to get into the Big Sky was 5 in favor and 3 against(Sac St, NAU, PSU). Those three schools can't afford to travel to the Dakota's and I think they've made it pretty much clear that they won't add a Dakota school. Fulerton and the Mt State president tried as hard as they could to bring in NDSU but they could never convince the far western schools to bring them in. They probably thought the more those schools know about NDSU the better chance they would have at convincing them and that is why they requested NDSU's information even though location was still a huge issue.

You guys can talk about FSSN forever but it will not be UND's key into the Big Sky because it brings little to the table. Altitude Sports is on Direct TV and Dish Network and is broadcast on cable tv outlets in 10 western states, it provides a massive amount of exposure. Combine that with location and the Denver market and it's no wonder UNC was a shoe in. UND will face the same problems that NDSU faced in getting into the Big Sky but UND will not have a president in their back pocket or a travel partner. In my opinion UND faces a big uphill battle unless a far western school leaves for the WAC or Big West. I have a feeling I will be welcoming you guys into the Mid-Con in five years and the Great West even sooner, and I think that would be a much better fit for UND.

[biff]

I recall the Montana State president pushing hard for the 'SU's. But it would seem as the commissioner, Fullerton could have informally polled the presidents to know if there was a remote possiblity for the 'SU's, instead of making them jump through hoops. As I recall the invitation has to be unanimous when UNC got in. If geography was the main drawback, why didn't Fullerton know that some presidents would say no?

Fullerton is a politician. Gamble (MSU) probably thought they had a convincing arguement for the SU's. When the BSC sent notice out that they may expand, at one time didn't they even send letters to UND, USD and some others?

Anyone know when the next BSC meeting is?

[star2city]

The vote for NDSU to get into the Big Sky was 5 in favor and 3 against(Sac St, NAU, PSU). Those three schools can't afford to travel to the Dakota's and I think they've made it pretty much clear that they won't add a Dakota school. Fulerton and the Mt State president tried as hard as they could to bring in NDSU but they could never convince the far western schools to bring them in. They probably thought the more those schools know about NDSU the better chance they would have at convincing them and that is why they requested NDSU's information even though location was still a huge issue.

UNC is another vote for UND. When Sac St goes to the WAC, the vote would be, at a minimum, 6-yes for UND, and at most 2-no. DU may well be in the BSC before UND, that would make the vote 7-yes for UND and at most 2-no. UND will be in. The financials of the Altitude/Dakota-wide cable deal may very well switch NAU and PSU's vote if UND membership is not a net liability. Altitude wants an expanded range and would reward whoever (i.e. the Big Sky) can deliver more cable systems.

You guys can talk about FSSN forever but it will not be UND's key into the Big Sky because it brings little to the table. Altitude Sports is on Direct TV and Dish Network and is broadcast on cable tv outlets in 10 western states, it provides a massive amount of exposure. Combine that with location and the Denver market and it's no wonder UNC was a shoe in. UND will face the same problems that NDSU faced in getting into the Big Sky but UND will not have a president in their back pocket or a travel partner.

As stated earlier, the relationship between FSSN, MidContinent Communications could well result in Altitude also being on MidContinent Cable if UND --> BSC, effectively delivering two more states to Altitude and the BSC.

In my opinion UND faces a big uphill battle unless a far western school leaves for the WAC or Big West. I have a feeling I will be welcoming you guys into the Mid-Con in five years and the Great West even sooner, and I think that would be a much better fit for UND.

FargoBison:

You are one of the more thoughtful posters around, but I respectfully disagree. The Great West might be a possibility for a short-time, but NDSU will likely be in the Gateway then.

[Hammerhead]

Perhaps the Big Sky will give up on the large media markets. I live near Portland and the write-up of the PSU/Montana game was buried near the back of the sports section in The Oregonian.

...They are also interested mostly in the fickle dream that if they add a subpar school next to a major metropolitan area that they are going to have an instant jump in interest towards the BSC. Didn't happen with Sac State and didn't happen with Portland or Washington.

For those whom are truely lost and don't realize how much of a car salesman Fullerton really is, please spare yourself and wake up.

BTW, student body size doesn't matter in regards to media markets. PSU has more students than Oregon or Oregon State and is in a metro area that has about 1/3 of the state's population.

[DI IN FARGO]

This is not something that Star2City dreamed up in the last couple of months and has nothing to do with jealousy. If you look back into old threads (I don't have the time right now to do it), Star2City predicted that UNC and Denver would get invites into the Big Sky due to the Altitude Network. UNC got in and Denver was possibly was invited but rejected their invitation. Dig around. It' there.

As far as FSSN. You have to admit, that it looks appealing when shopping for a conference.

There is 2 reasons UNC got into the BSC.

1. Location (in the already established footprint of the BSC or footprint as they see it anyway).

2. To appease the west coast schools.

The West Coast schools threatened to leave had NDSU and SDSU gotten in. This would have jeopardized the autobid for the conference which is why or at least a big part of why they didn't choose NDSU and SDSU. If it were up to the Montana schools and thier fans we would have been in. Nothing to do with any concocted FSSN network garbage. Don't believe me go over and look at the Montana State fan board and read up on the NDSU/Ball State win thread. You can talk till your blue in the face about the BSC (and I hope you get in) but with the west coast biased it aint happening tv/cable contracts or not. If the west coast schools don't want to travel to Fargo/Brookings they won't want to travel to GF without a travel partner (or even with one in USD).

[Hammersmith]

There is one scenario for UND getting into BSC that is more likely than all others(IMHO). When NDSU and SDSU were rejected, Fullerton was requiring a unanimous vote. I believe that was because he was afraid of Sac State and Port State bolting to west coast conferences if their wishes were overruled. With UNC now in the mix, he might feel like he's got enough leverage to go with a standard vote if UND comes up. There is also a chance that former UND employee Terry Wanless might push his president(Sac) to vote for UND. That would give UND a likely 7-2 vote; enough to get in under a standard vote.

The thing to note about this scenario is that it has nothing to do with UND. It is all about the inner machinations of the BCS commissioner/presidents. What UND has, or doesn't have, doesn't really make a difference. That was one of the most frustrating things we Bison fans had to learn: It doesn't matter one whit how good you or your facilities are; you are completely at the mercy of factors beyond your institution's control.

UND is good enough to be in Big Sky; so were NDSU and SDSU. The reason some of us jump on your scenarios and predictions is because we've learned from hard experience that there is a fallacy at the heart of them: Your talents/strengths make a difference. They don't. Be the best choice you can be, and then wait. Don't seriously get your hopes up, and be exstatic when you get in.

I'm not pulling, or not pulling, for UND to get into Big Sky. I know it's not a matter of UND's abilities. I'm just observing(and occasionally commenting on) the process. I do this because processes and systems like these are like crack to me; I can't get enough.

Good luck to you, and whatever happens, happens.

[GeauxSioux]

1. Location (in the already established footprint of the BSC or footprint as they see it anyway).

2. To appease the west coast schools.

Did the Big Sky have to expand? It seems that you are implying that the Big Sky had to expand last year and that UNC was chosen simply because it was closer and thus wouldn't upset the west coast schools.

The West Coast schools threatened to leave had NDSU and SDSU gotten in. This would have jeopardized the autobid for the conference which is why or at least a big part of why they didn't choose NDSU and SDSU. If it were up to the Montana schools and thier fans we would have been in. Nothing to do with any concocted FSSN network garbage. Don't believe me go over and look at the Montana State fan board and read up on the NDSU/Ball State win thread. You can talk till your blue in the face about the BSC (and I hope you get in) but with the west coast biased it aint happening tv/cable contracts or not. If the west coast schools don't want to travel to Fargo/Brookings they won't want to travel to GF without a travel partner (or even with one in USD).

I know the thread on the Montana State board of which you speak. Some Bison fans will go anywhere to bash the Sioux.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

Sometimes, I do wonder if I'm stuck in some time wharp relative to 2004, only now the tables are ironically turned. The same kind of "jealousy and wishful" talk was hurled by Bison fans at my preposterous concept that UNC would get a Big Sky bid over NDSU/SDSU because of media/cable issues. Now, being consistent and using those same principles, UND with its FSSN should be obviously be of interest to the BSC. But NDSU fans, now claiming to "comprehend" media issues, ridicule the very idea that UND would be in the Big Sky because of its media capabilities. Never mind that UND with its FSSN has essentially transformed the Dakotas and NW Minnesota into a Sacramento-sized media market.

Law of Bison fan conventional wisdom: when Bison fans reach agreement, the opposite happens:

Sure things according to conventional Bison wisdom:

UND will lose to Northern Iowa, badly.

UND athletics is a basket case financially.

UND athletics will be stuck as an independent for a long, long time.

The FSSN has no impact on conference decision making.

UND has absolutely no leadership, and is doomed.

NDSU will surpass UND in stature.

Grand Forks has nothing whatsoever going for it and is destined to be a hell-hole.

The Law of Bison Fan Conventional Wisdom strongly affirms ---> The future is very bright for UND and it athletic program.

So how do you like those apples? or was it oranges?

BOBIWABUCHIFAN

[The Sicatoka]

That was one of the most frustrating things we Bison fans had to learn: It doesn't matter one whit how good you or your facilities are; ....

... The reason some of us jump on your scenarios and predictions is because we've learned from hard experience that there is a fallacy at the heart of them: Your talents/strengths make a difference. They don't.

If that's the case, why do conferences have you fill out informational reports and do campus visits?

Be the best choice you can be, and then wait.

Then why bother being the best you can? Didn't you just say that doesn't matter?

Something doesn't add up there.

[DI IN FARGO]

Did the Big Sky have to expand? It seems that you are implying that the Big Sky had to expand last year and that UNC was chosen simply because it was closer and thus wouldn't upset the west coast schools.

I know the thread on the Montana State board of which you speak. Some Bison fans will go anywhere to bash the Sioux.

It would appear to me that you don't have to worry about NDSU fans bashing UND. They seem to do it on their own out there. Pretty smart people I guess.