Media Stories on the Sioux Name

[The Sicatoka]

mksioux (and I guess jimdahl):

I read your post and a name popped into my head: Neville Chamberlain.

[Vegas_Sioux]

Somehow I doubt "Myles" was the bully in school.

He was the one getting his lunch money stolen now he takes it out on us

[UND92,96]

mksioux (and I guess jimdahl):

I read your post and a name popped into my head: Neville Chamberlain.

"Chamberlain. You could hold his head in the toilet and he'd still give you half of Europe."

--George Costanza

[dagies]

Somehow I doubt "Myles" was the bully in school.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

[jimdahl]

mksioux (and I guess jimdahl):

I read your post and a name popped into my head: Neville Chamberlain.

Except I'm already on record in favor the warlawsuit (and am, somewhat obviously, a big supporter of the Sioux and the nickname) .

The reason I jumped into this fray is because I thought it an important point when Sultan noted that there are harmful externalities other than the NCAA's rule. Defeating the policy in the courts, based on improper procedure in its passage, may provide a reprieve against the tournament sanctions. However, it may not provide the needed relief from opponent or conference boycotts. That's not a heretical thing to say, instead I think it's something we need to be thinking about, especially as we begin the transition to Division I.

I still think the best outcome for all parties would be to work with the tribes to get their approval, which would satisfy Sioux fans, the NCAA, and most nickname opponents (again, I know if it were easy, we would have already done it). Any other outcome is going to be painful and leave a lot of people unhappy.

[dagies]

mksioux (and I guess jimdahl):

I read your post and a name popped into my head: Neville Chamberlain.

I have to admit that jimdahl and mksioux's posts make some sense to me, it's just that I'm not quite ready to accept that that time has come. In the meantime, The Sicatoka's post reminded me of this Winston Churchill quote:

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

- Winston Churchill

[undsportsfan]

I still think the only way out of this that would make everyone happy would be to get tribal approval (again, I know if it were easy, we would have already done it).

Unfortunately though, councils change every two years, and each person is will have a different perspective on it. And when it comes to the public voting, just as in any town, county, or state, you just don't get everyone out to go vote... and it's also difficult when people don't have all the information I guess.

I think for many natives on reservations, including myself, some of us just didn't know what it was all about until you either started following the news (which is always misleading) or lived where the problem really was.

It's just one of those neverending things when it comes to trying to gain tribal approval. About anything. Not just this nickname. And many tribal council members just get annoyed with UND asking them to make a decision. It's not on their main agenda, though many feel its important, but there are just other issues to deal with.

It's just an unfortunate situation for everyone.

Oh Jim... Like the new updates!

[ScottM]

The reason I jumped into this fray is because I thought it an important point when Sultan noted that there are harmful externalities other than the NCAA's rule. Defeating the policy in the courts, based on improper procedure in its passage, may provide a reprieve against the tournament sanctions. However, it may not provide the needed relief from opponent or conference boycotts. That's not a heretical thing to say, instead I think it's something we need to be thinking about, especially as we begin the transition to Division I.

I still think the best outcome for all parties would be to work with the tribes to get their approval, which would satisfy Sioux fans, the NCAA, and most nickname opponents (again, I know if it were easy, we would have already done it). Any other outcome is going to be painful and leave a lot of people unhappy.

I don't see any reason to dispute that reasoning. Even if the NC$$ lost in court, the schools and conferences are still free to pick their own opponents, regardless of their own hypocrisy read: "money". Moreover, the move to D1 probably has enough appeal to the monied alums and boosters, they may very well push to end the name to make it as spectacular as possible.

As to your last point, there will be enough bad blood over this issue to last generations.

[mksioux]

mksioux (and I guess jimdahl):

I read your post and a name popped into my head: Neville Chamberlain.

Yep, my post was exactly like building up a rogue dictatorship empire through appeasement that will eventually lead to tens of millions of deaths. My bad.

Please read my last few hundred posts in the nickname forum and tell me if you still think I'm a Chamberlain on this issue.

I never said to immediately drop the nickname because Minnesota won't schedule us. What I'm saying is if there is any possible way to settle with the NCAA short of dropping the entire nickname, now is the time to do it. Settling with the NCAA will not guarantee that schools won't boycott us, but it seems like the best bet right now, short of dropping the name altogether.

[Matt]

Yep, my post was exactly like building up a rogue dictatorship empire through appeasement that will eventually lead to tens of millions of deaths. My bad.

Please read my last few hundred posts in the nickname forum and tell me if you still think I'm a Chamberlain on this issue.

I tend to agree. Pandoras box is open. You don't take a stance against the nickname and then change your mind when the nickname hasn't changed. How can we force any team to schedule someone they don't want to, regardless of whether the lawsuit is won? This pendulum isn't swining back.

[82SiouxGuy]

I never said to immediately drop the nickname because Minnesota won't schedule us. What I'm saying is if there is any possible way to settle with the NCAA short of dropping the entire nickname, now is the time to do it. Settling with the NCAA will not guarantee that schools won't boycott us, but it seems like the best bet right now, short of dropping the name altogether.

I don't think that the NC$$ has any interest in settling right now. They believe they are totally right and in control of the situation. It is possible that closer to the trial, if they see a lot of evidence build up against them, they may have a change of heart. It will probably be many months before there is any chance of movement on either side.

[Shawn-O]

Man, this is a tough one. Recruiting probably just got a little more difficult today for Coach Lennon and Coach Jones, unfortunately. Right now my heart and my head say to keep battling, keep fighting the good fight. The best place to start would be with the things I can control. Any casual support of Gopher athletics, through the purchase of football or basketball tickets for a handful of games a year, will cease effective immediately (I'm sure they'll have the nerve to send me another mailer this summer promoting Gopher football). It's a drop in the bucket I know, but it's something I can control. I would urge any other UND alumni in the Twin Cities to do likewise. Also, I'm sure most of the talk radio guys would be glad to point out how ludacris and hypocritical this is as well.....I think I'll fire off a few e-mails before bed....

[Goon]

I don't think that the NC$$ has any interest in settling right now. They believe they are totally right and in control of the situation. It is possible that closer to the trial, if they see a lot of evidence build up against them, they may have a change of heart. It will probably be many months before there is any chance of movement on either side.

Aren't they going to like interview like 20 of the NCAA's staff. That would be interesting to see what they come up with, emails etc.

I say that we fight them tooth and nail.

[GeauxSioux]

NCAA pass won't sway Minnesota

Any future exception to school policy against playing teams with American Indian nicknames shouldn't be based strictly on which teams the NCAA considers "hostile and abusive," members of the University of Minnesota's Advisory Committee on Athletics said Tuesday.

That means the committee may recommend not scheduling games against UND even if the the North Dakota school wins its lawsuit against the NCAA or reaches a compromise with the association that allows retaining some version of its Fighting Sioux nickname and logo.

Nobody gets a pass from this member.

Another committee member, Child Development Professor Maria Sera, agreed with Brady's argument. "In my personal opinion, I think that's discriminatory, too. Some schools have the money to buy off certain influential tribe members to keep their names, and others have to change," Sera said. "I would apply (the policy) across the board. Many Native Americans find (American Indian logos) very offensive. I see no need to offend people for something so minor."

Can you believe....

"If it's offensive to one person in a group, it's offensive," she said.

Welcome to America in the 21st century.

Their advisory panel appears to be made up of a group of liberal types. A Child Psycology professor, a Child Development professor, a nutrionist ...

[mksioux]

Well, scrap everything I said yesterday.

It appears they're going to take a hard line on this no matter what.

After reading this latest article, I guess I just don't give a dang anymore. Keep fighting the lawsuit and see what happens.

If reasonable people actually cared about PC lunacy more than giving it lip service, Dale Lennon would have a dozen offers this morning from I-A coaches wanting to schedule us. But I'm not holding my breath...

And I see right through Maturi's BS about "doing what's right for the student-athlete". He's allowing the inmates to run the asylum over at UofM. The panel even says they are only advisory and he can schedule whomover he wants. Grow a pair Maturi. Show us that adults are still in charge.

[ScottM]

The Advisory Committee on Athletics makes recommendations to Maturi on intercollegiate and policy issues, Brady said, but has no direct authority.

"Like the name says, we're advisory," she said. "We advise Joel and because it's advisory, he doesn't have to listen to us. Because this is kind of a gray area, he comes asking for advice, and he's willing to accept advice on this issue. But it's not binding."

If that's the case, why doesn't Maturi tell them to "f*** themselves"?

Then again, these pencil necks can certainly lobby to gain greater control over the AD, and that's probably what he's trying to avoid by caving.

That still leaves the larger issue of whether other schools and conferences will follow suit on an ad hoc basis. If the name/logo becomes an impediment to a successful move to D1, guess which one's going to give way. Regardless of any success in the courts of law and public opinion, the clock may be ticking ...

[yekcoh]

Committee member S. Douglas Olson said the question of playing teams with American Indian mascots and logos is complex and has not been explored deeply enough by the committee. He said there was not extended discussion before the decision was reached to interpret the policy more strictly.

"There's no right thing, just better and worse things," he said. "It seems to me we'll need to do a fair amount of talking and thinking to find out what that is, and that's something the committee really needs to sit down and do. And we haven't done that in the two years I've been on the committee."

It looks to me like the committee members are not quite in agreement. At least S. Douglas Olson is admitting that they really have not put much thought into this yet.

[The Sicatoka]

Yep, my post was exactly like building up a rogue dictatorship empire through appeasement that will eventually lead to tens of millions of deaths. My bad.

There may not be millions of deaths in this case; it's just free expression (dare I say Amendment One) being chipped away at ever more. Eh, no biggie, right?

[Goon]

If that's the case, why doesn't Maturi tell them to "f*** themselves"?

Then again, these pencil necks can certainly lobby to gain greater control over the AD, and that's probably what he's trying to avoid by caving.

That still leaves the larger issue of whether other schools and conferences will follow suit on an ad hoc basis. If the name/logo becomes an impediment to a successful move to D1, guess which one's going to give way. Regardless of any success in the courts of law and public opinion, the clock may be ticking ...

I guess we could collectively write the U a letter.

[PCM]

Committee member Linda Brady's comments must be read in their entirety to be truly understood and appreciated.

However, committee members said Tuesday an NCAA sanction or a winning verdict in a lawsuit may not be enough to win their approval.

Committee member Linda Brady said a pass by the NCAA would mean very little to her. Several schools, including the Chippewas and the Florida State University Seminoles, gained the NCAA's sanction after a namesake tribe's leadership council approved the nickname. Brady said the views of a tribal council don't always reflect the majority opinion.

"(My heritage is) Polish," she said. "Some people don't care if they're called dumb Pollocks, and some do. We're all different, so who has the right to speak for the community? From my own heart, I think our policy here should be to not have that be part of our agenda, whether the NCAA says it's OK or not."

Brady is a nutrition professor who has served on the committee since 2000.

"If it's offensive to one person in a group, it's offensive," she said.

So nobody has the right to speak for the community except the one person who's offended. Can we call her the nutty professor?

[mksioux]

There may not be millions of deaths in this case; it's just free expression (dare I say Amendment One) being chipped away at ever more. Eh, no biggie, right?

I know we've had this First Amendment argument before so I won't go into it again. Suffice it to say that if we're relying on the First Amendment to force others to accept our use of the Fighting Sioux nickname, we're wasting our time.

The case against the NCAA is a breach of contract case (with an uphill anti-trust count). The “case” against other schools who don't want to schedule us is...well, nothing. There is not a court in this country that will force schools to schedule us because of the First Amendment or any other legal theory. It is merely a matter for public opinion and public discourse. And while we may hold public opinion amongst the general population, we certainly don't hold it on major college campuses. The people in positions to make these decisions might as well be living on another planet from you and me.

[MplsBison]

Lets say UND wins the lawsuit and the NCAA says you can use Sioux and host playoffs, etc.

Then, would not being able to play Minnesota in football, basketball, etc. be a big deal to you guys?

[petey23]

Lets say UND wins the lawsuit and the NCAA says you can use Sioux and host playoffs, etc.

Then, would not being able to play Minnesota in football, basketball, etc. be a big deal to you guys?

I guess the Gophers will forfeit at that point. So with the new hard line approach and not caring what NCAA says, I hope the Gopher football team is awarded a bowl game down the road against Florida State. the Big 10 and and goofer alum are going to be pissed off when they have to turn the game down.

[ScottM]

Lets say UND wins the lawsuit and the NCAA says you can use Sioux and host playoffs, etc.

Then, would not being able to play Minnesota in football, basketball, etc. be a big deal to you guys?

It would be "nice" to play Minnesota, and given Maturi's earlier comments probably even possible if the NC$$ pulled its head out of its ass. However, I think the larger, looming issue as mksioux notes, is that the people who drive these decisions aren't always in the AD, so much as buried in academia and detached from reality. So what we're seeing from Minnesota may be a harbinger of things to come from other quarters, and UND may not be the only school "blackballed" by these clowns either, including the NC$$'s golden goose, FSU.

And since "If it's offensive to one person in a group, it's offensive," seems to be their mantra, where do I complain in the NC$$ appartus about the "Fighting Irish" of Notre Dame and their mascot/logo? Can we start a petition among Irish and non-Irish folks?

[PCM]

Suffice it to say that if we're relying on the First Amendment to force others to accept our use of the Fighting Sioux nickname, we're wasting our time.

That's never been the argument. The free expression argument is about whether the minority of a minority has the right to censor words and images in the public domain that it finds offensive.

The case against the NCAA is a breach of contract case (with an uphill anti-trust count).

Which does not preclude a lawsuit on First Amendment grounds at some point in the future.

The "case" against other schools who don't want to schedule us is...well, nothing. There is not a court in this country that will force schools to schedule us because of the First Amendment or any other legal theory. It is merely a matter for public opinion and public discourse. And while we may hold public opinion amongst the general population, we certainly don't hold it on major college campuses. The people in positions to make these decisions might as well be living on another planet from you and me.

Does that mean that university administrators can't be held accountable for their decisions and the examples they set? Because as the parent of a student attending a public university, I do expect accountability. As a taxpayer who foots the bill to support public institutions, I expect accountability.

While I'm sure that administrators of certain universities would prefer to make decisions in a vacuum -- free from public scrutiny, discourse and criticism -- I don't plan on issuing them a pass simply because they've managed to establish free speech exclusion zones on their campuses. It's an issue of such critical importance that it transcends UND's DI plans and the desire of some Sioux boosters to mimic NDSU.

Edited December 20, 2006 by PCM