To begin a journey of a 1000 miles....

[Sioux-cia]

[BigGreyAnt41]

your Uncle was in the Civil Rights movement? Wow.  He must have been a whiner too as he was whining to the majority about how he percieved he was being treated.  If he was so busy taking care of *his* own, why was it important to march with the NAACP?  you are talking doublespeak.    Why didnt he just "go back to where he came from" and work on the problems of his own people. 

Yep, I hope you are offended.  I hope you take it personally.  Maybe you will finally understand my point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I haven't been a big part of this thread but I had to respond to this statement.

There is a big difference between being treated as less-than-human by a government and having a school having it's nickname named after your people.

Call it "whining" if you want, but I say everybody that marched in the Civil Rights movement had a right to "whine" because they were allowed facilities that were less than what the whites got. This situation, on the other hand, is simply a school with a nickname. That's it.

[dagies]

If the University of North Dakota wanted to call their team the Fighting Martinez',I would be damn proud.

MAR-TI-NEZ!

MAR-TI-NEZ!

It works, in a pinch.

[Corella]

You make it sound like there are few to none intelligent NA students who want to succeed.  There are lots and maybe they would have more of an opportunity if they could choose their local university : UND without worrying about the racism they will have to deal with once they get here. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Once again, as teamsioux asked, if this place (UND, Grand Forks) is so bad, so full of hatred and racism that apparently I am blind to, why in the hell would any Native American come here??? It only seems obvious that if there is someone/something that causes a person that much trouble, that much pain and anguish, that person/place/thing would be the last thing in the world I would want to be near. Why attend a university that bares such a "false representation" to what I am, where I am from, everything that I have been taught of my people?? If I believe strongly enough in something, I am going to see it everywhere, whether it is there or not.

[kfah1]

[GrahamKracker]

[PCM]

It took hundreds of years for slavery to end in this country, but at the time it was "okay" to own slaves.  It was the mindset of that time.  This mindset of thinking of Indians as mascots will end, too. Its not the biggest battle, but its one that needs to be ended.

  Do you really think that we will go "backwards" in time and it will get any better for the 18 NCAA schools that have mascots?  No.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Comparing the nickname issue to slavery, women's suffrage, civil rights or even the more recent Confederate flag controversy simply doesn't wash.

This issue has been going on for more than 30 years. Despite that and the amount of publicity it's received, the polls I've seen show that 80 to 90 percent of American Indians don't see the use of Native American names and mascots by sports teams as a problem.

This is a major hurdle for your cause to overcome because a large majority of the very people who are the alleged victims of the discrimination and abuse don't recognize it. Either you need to do a better job of convincing them that they are suffering as a result of these nicknames or resign yourself to the idea that perhaps it's not as serious as you think it is.

[Mad Man]

It took hundreds of years for slavery to end in this country, but at the time it was "okay" to own slaves.

[Blackheart]

[BigGreyAnt41]

Speaking of points, did you hear about the one NCAA came out with, after extensive research?  Enough said. 

It took hundreds of years for slavery to end in this country, but at the time it was "okay" to own slaves.  It was the mindset of that time.  This mindset of thinking of Indians as mascots will end, too. Its not the biggest battle, but its one that needs to be ended.

  Do you really think that we will go "backwards" in time and it will get any better for the 18 NCAA schools that have mascots?  No.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think anybody here would have any problems with the NCAA banning Native American mascots. Because those can be somewhat disrespectful if not done properly. The issue here is logo's and nicknames.

Your arguments don't work anybody better than the NCAA's when you use "mascot," "nickname," and "logo" interchangably.

[GrahamKracker]

[BigGame]

Im am so sick of talking about this point. If you dont believe some what in democracy, then you need to move to another country. but then there your opinion *really* wouldnt matter. according to *you*, Gov. Hoven's statements today are a bunch of political b.s. and I can summarily dismiss them since there is no reason for me to believe that he is reflecting anyones opinion but his own and the people who financially back him. (But I am thinking since he supports *your* views that what he said is okay.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do believe in a democracy, but I don't have illusions about what almost all of these politicians really are. I am not saying what a politician does always is or is not bad. The problems is that you can't not prove intentions or if they are truely representing the people they are supposed too.

[KnowtheFacts]

[fightonsioux]

And why would you not include the Cleveland Whites. Once again we are being discriminated against. Velkommen to my uff-da

[Sioux-cia]

[Smoggy]

I am white

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe I missed it earlier (catching up after being gone), but do you have any Native American blood in you?

[Diggler]

Then change it to Fighting Martinez.  Difference is that you want the name.  The real Sioux do not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What about those that do want the name? Are they real Sioux and do they count? Or do you have an opinion like GrahamKracker where they aren't real Sioux, don't practice Indians Ways and are just "Fort" Indians?

[7>4]

First, I thought the PC term is American Indian and not Native American. After all, I was born in America so doesn't that make me a Native American?

To the main issue. After reading this thread and others similar to it I have come to the conclusion that people have strong feelings one way or another that will not change. I am not an American Indian and do not claim to know much about the Sioux culture. As such, I can't begin to understand how a person of Sioux decent feels over use of the Sioux name. I personally don't think that UND's use of the name or logo is hostile or abusive. However, I can understand how those with Sioux ancestors would find it offensive.

I guess my main question to Kracker and Knowthefacts is whether there are any circumstances that those Sioux tribes that oppose the name would find it OK?

[MinnesotaNorthStar]

the ncaa ended slavery?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, Myles Brand himself signed the Emancipation Proclimation...it's on page 247 of the American History textbook...

To compare this issue to slavery and the Civil Rights movement is laughable.

I will ask both Knowthefacts and GrahmKracker in this thread...

Why is "Fighting Sioux" offensive, but "Fighting Irish" isn't?

And I love how you use the moniker "Kracker," which is an derogatory term for white people, similar to what n***** is to black people...oh wait, we're white and cannot be victims of racism, I forgot. Sorry.

[GrahamKracker]

Then change it to Fighting Martinez. Difference is that you want the name. The real Sioux do not.

Go Fighting Martinez!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Sioux-cia]

Bennet isn't Sioux, he's a rabbit-choker (TMC), please do your history before you comment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Krac', sweetie, I never said Bennet was Sioux. I know he is Chippewa-Cree. I said I want him to design the Fighting Martinez' logo. Now as much as I enjoy sparring with you, why don't you go to the previous thread and answer Diggler's questions, the questions you keep avoiding. People really want to read the answers. This personal thing between us, while fun, isn't what this thread is about. But if you wanna keep playing......

[star2city]

???Danged if we do and danged if we don't.  How can you even try to set the "white people" up as the victim?  I have so much to say, but really you need to read some books about Racism and the History of how American settlers treated the indigenous people.  (Watching "Into the West" doesn't count)  I have recommendations if you are interested.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

KnowTheFacts:

Perhaps you need to approach life from a whole different vantage point. Your “victim” politics creates a toxicity in our whole culture that creates needs for retribution. In life, everyone becomes a victim sometime/somewhere of disease, rejection, disappointment, ostracism, loneliness, isolation, and death. “White” people are not immune to those conditions, nor are they the sole perpetrators of them.

I live in a majority black city in the South, in an integrated neighborhood. Among my black coworkers and neighbors, who are viewed as upwardly mobile, almost without exception they have rejcted the concept of themselves as “victims”, when in fact some of the garbage that life has thrown at them (and especially at their parents and grandparents - hearing some of their stories makes one shudder) should have victimized them. But they chose grace, and asked for mercy for the perpetrators, rejected being in a state of bitterness, and moved on. In both the poorer rural white and poor urban black neighborhoods, victim status is much more likely to be embraced, and there is much less hope.

It seems you are looking for an external solution, when the answer is internal in each individual’s heart, if they have the courage to look there.

[mikejm]

almost without exception they have rejected the concept of themselves as

[GrahamKracker]

[GrahamKracker]