2020 Dumpster Fire (Enter at your own risk)

[southpaw]

3 minutes ago, Oxbow6 said:

Define "government" for within this comment.

How about starting with those responsible for cutting the NSC Pandemic Response team in 2018. Even if they say they "I don't take responsibility at all," they are responsible for ensuring a quick and effective response.

After the first 15 cases were reported, the conversation needed to be about stopping its spread and not on Wall Street or how the cases will very shortly be zero. 

 

[Oxbow6]

2 minutes ago, southpaw said:

How about starting with those responsible for cutting the NSC Pandemic Response team in 2018. Even if they say they "I don't take responsibility at all," they are responsible for ensuring a quick and effective response.

After the first 15 cases were reported, the conversation needed to be about stopping its spread and not on Wall Street or how the cases will very shortly be zero. 

 

Absolutely

[planetearth]

Question of the day:

What tips the scales for how you deal with the issue:  follow the experts vs thinking for yourself?

I suppose this is could be a political question too if you want it to be... (though not the intent).

[Oxbow6]

37 minutes ago, UNDfaninMICH said:

The widespread opinion amongst experts in epidemiology, infectious diseases, and public health is that the containment measures will reduce the number of dead as compared to what would happen with no containment measures. We will never know how bad things "could" have been if we chose to just live life as usual. But we can get some ideas of that from Italy, where the response to the initial cases was rather passive. Anyone who has an understanding of science will acknowledge that we can't truly know how bad things would have been by doing nothing. On the flip side, people who don't understand science are going to look at the numbers when/if this pandemic ends and say, "See, I told you it wasn't that bad!".

I agree that hoarding foods and other items with a "me first" attitude is ludicrous, but that is a microcosm of American behavior as a whole. When public events were shut down in China, Italy, and South Korea were there riots?

People shouldn't panic to that degree. Some people seem to be saying that public health experts are advocating for such panic, but that is patently false.

My snarky side would say that apparently the bar for acceptable deaths is anything less than caused by H1N1 flu, so as long as the stabbing victim didn't die, things are apparently ok and stabbings should be tolerated as "not that bad" for now.

When things settle down, will Americans be ready to have a conversation regarding why hospitals operate on very thin margins when it comes to resources like ICU beds, staffing, isolation gear, diagnostic test kits, devices, etc? Here's a starter: even though a pandemic from viruses like coronavirus has widely been anticipated, pharma companies have little motivation to work on medications that "might" be needed and won't see daily ongoing use even if they are needed, because such work isn't profitable to them.

*Edited because I didn't mean to imply that there were in fact riots in China and South Korea.

You make some valid points

[yzerman19]

1 hour ago, Redneksioux said:

Problem is drastic measures were not immediately taken in those countries. Our government had a chance to learn what was going on in countries it had previously hit and we ignored those warnings. Our own president said that 15 cases would turn to zero about a week ago. And now the world is dealing with a pandemic, the US is under a federal emergency, and almost everything is shut down. And we have our governer still going with facts over fear statements. 

 

People are freaking out because our government has failed us and we cannot trust them.

Key point:  government

I, for one, have never thought of the government as a protector.  It cannot fail me on this, because I put no faith in it to begin with.  It is not some omnipotent protector of people.
 

if a million people die from this, that’s sad- tragic; but nothing, let alone the government, can protect us all from viruses.  Nature and biology are stronger than any government.  
 

The real interesting societal view on this is what happens without “bread and circuses”- the circuses are shutdown...people have bread...for now.

oh how I wish we were discussing a 7-0 Sioux win last night instead of this.

 

[LeftyZL]

1 hour ago, UNDfaninMICH said:

When things settle down, will Americans be ready to have a conversation regarding why hospitals operate on very thin margins when it comes to resources like ICU beds, staffing, isolation gear, diagnostic test kits, devices, etc? Here's a starter: even though a pandemic from viruses like coronavirus has widely been anticipated, pharma companies have little motivation to work on medications that "might" be needed and won't see daily ongoing use even if they are needed, because such work isn't profitable to them.

In my opinion, The reality is in the business world you don’t make or buy things you don’t need at that moment. That’s why we are in more of a reactive state vs. proactive state. That’s just the reality, I don’t stock things at my business that I might need in 3, 6, or 9 months.

That’s wasting money and preventing me from buying other things with that money.

[Siouxphan27]

3 hours ago, CMSioux said:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/01/31/coronavirus-china-trump-united-states-public-health-emergency-response/

Here is a path of how we got here. 

Interesting article.  I wish it would explain how things would be different if the proposed funding cuts and other actual cuts had never occurred.  More test kits?  Fewer travel or group bans? 

I see it was written Jan. 31st.  It reads more like someone trying to Monday morning quarterback a crisis, before said crisis happens.  

I miss the swine flu.  You know, those good old days when an epidemic could occur without half the country finger pointing, manufacturing outrage, and inducing panic by claiming those in charge aren't doing enough before the apocalyptic event even began.    

[UNDfaninMICH]

Just now, LeftyZL said:

In my opinion, The reality is in the business world you don’t make or buy things you don’t need at that moment. That’s why we are in more of a reactive state vs. proactive state. That’s just the reality, I don’t stock things at my business that I might need in 3, 6, or 9 months.

That’s wasting money and preventing me from buying other things with that money.

That is exactly true. Why do we run healthcare enterprises as "businesses" rather than entities for the good of our citizens? Right now the "things" being bought with the money "saved" by remaining in a reactive state are big salaries to executives in hospitals, pharma companies, and insurance companies, to name a few. Hospital execs are being compensated in the millions, yet heaven forbid there be a nurse working a shift without a packed full assignment. 

[Siouxphan27]

44 minutes ago, planetearth said:

Question of the day:

What tips the scales for how you deal with the issue:  follow the experts vs thinking for yourself?

I suppose this is could be a political question too if you want it to be... (though not the intent).

I think it depends largely on which media outlet employs your "expert."  

[yzerman19]

5 minutes ago, LeftyZL said:

In my opinion, The reality is in the business world you don’t make or buy things you don’t need at that moment. That’s why we are in more of a reactive state vs. proactive state. That’s just the reality, I don’t stock things at my business that I might need in 3, 6, or 9 months.

That’s wasting money and preventing me from buying other things with that money.

and for everyone who complains about health insurance premiums, margins (which are very thin most years), and importantly reserves- this is why they have them.  Reserves are part of a calculation known as risk based capital.   Claims will be paid, many elements of patient Financial responsibility will be waived.  Same goes for delivery system cash on hand.  The system is financed (when managed adequately) to weather this. 
 

whether or not access is adequate is a different question, but understand this- reductions in dollars to health plans and healthcare delivery (I.e Medicare for all- Medicare pays about half what commercial insurers pay for services) will put even more pressure on rural and community providers.  Likely shutting many down and consolidating any kind of secondary or tertiary care into metro facilities.  It’s a subtext of the death rate in other countries that isn’t being discussed right now.  I’d be willing to bet that there are more ICU beds properly staffed with the best modern vents and other equipment in Minnesota than in the country of Italy.

[Oxbow6]

20 minutes ago, UNDfaninMICH said:

That is exactly true. Why do we run healthcare enterprises as "businesses" rather than entities for the good of our citizens? Right now the "things" being bought with the money "saved" by remaining in a reactive state are big salaries to executives in hospitals, pharma companies, and insurance companies, to name a few. Hospital execs are being compensated in the millions, yet heaven forbid there be a nurse working a shift without a packed full assignment. 

In any "business" there's really only two groups...those who pull the wagon and those that ride in the wagon. Rarely does it make sense or is it equatable..... especially in healthcare.

[yzerman19]

Further clarification:  claims will be paid even if no premiums are collected in this environment

[Oxbow6]

First death in NY......82 female with emphysema. Tragic but in all reality were her odds much better if she got the flu this season? 

[yzerman19]

2 minutes ago, Oxbow6 said:

First death in NY......82 female with emphysema. Tragic but in all reality were her odds much better if she got the flu this season? 

Or if she fell getting up to go to the bathroom at night and broke her hip. 
 

not being callous- she is likely someone’s mother and grandmother. I am sorry for their loss, but 82 with emphysema is not a shutdown the American way of life trigger.

[geaux_sioux]

Our big ace in the hole in ND is lack of population density. If we were all stacked on top of one and other like they are in China lockdown would be the only smart option.

[yzerman19]

1 minute ago, geaux_sioux said:

Our big ace in the hole in ND is lack of population density. If we were all stacked on top of one and other like they are in China lockdown would be the only smart option.

Yeah home...I currently live in the greater Los Angeles metroplex (albeit suburbs) so I’ve got that going for me...which is nice...

[Cratter]

Italy has a much smaller much older population than the United States. 

Since this is less fatal than the flu for most people who get it, the USA wont have to worry about Italy comparisons. 

[yzerman19]

The reality is if you haven’t accepted the fact that you will likely acquire some version of this Coronavirus in your lifetime,  you aren’t living in reality.  
 

I get a flu vaccine every year, but I don’t think that it protects me from ever getting the flu.

we’ve taken a turn toward the surreal here to slow the spread of this thing, nothing more.

[Oxbow6]

We can not assemble in "large crowds" at sporting events, churches, ect... so let's shift the social gathering points to Walmarts, Sam's, Costco's, ect...

Had to make a run to Walmart after work for my wife last night. More people in that store than were at the last game of the Thursday night Class A session at the SHAC.

My youngest daughter just got back from MSP with some friends. Stayed at Great Wolf Lodge and went to MOA. She said both places were packed.

 

[yzerman19]

I’d also add that we’ve been sick in my house.  I’ve had a cold this week- not running in to get tested.  Hanging out at home, working from home, not leaving the house.  I’m actually kinda hoping I have Coronavirus, that this is the extent of my illness (I’m 43 with Rx managed Htn) and we can all move on quickly.

another thing not being discussed is regional exposures to other coronaviruses i.e. common cold strains etc as well as genetic makeups of those most and least susceptible to the lethal side of this virus.  
 

I have also seen that they are advancing a CAR-T like infusion therapy on this using B Cells from survivors of covid-19.  

Science, not the government is our best bet.

[southpaw]

1 hour ago, yzerman19 said:

Key point:  government

I, for one, have never thought of the government as a protector.  It cannot fail me on this, because I put no faith in it to begin with.  It is not some omnipotent protector of people.
 

What's the major difference between the death toll in Italy vs South Korea? The policies put in place by the governments of those countires.

SK had 10x the cases in mid-February when they shut the country down. Italy, chose to be lax about it, and now they're number two in deaths with nearly double the number of cases per million as South Korea.

Nobody is expecting the government to save you from viruses. But maybe having testing kits available would be helpful. The CDC chose to create their own (defective) tests instead of using the proven WHO ones. South Korea is testing 10,000 people a day. As of yesterday, the U.S. has tested fewer than 16,000. 

44 minutes ago, yzerman19 said:

and for everyone who complains about health insurance premiums, margins (which are very thin most years), and importantly reserves- this is why they have them.  Reserves are part of a calculation known as risk based capital.   Claims will be paid, many elements of patient Financial responsibility will be waived.  Same goes for delivery system cash on hand.  The system is financed (when managed adequately) to weather this.

Right now, in the U.S. if you're incredibly sick and have flu-like symptoms you need to go to the hospital. At that point, you're almost hoping you have coronavirus because if it comes back as the flu then you're getting stuck with a massive bill. 

Here in Germany, if I have similar symptoms as above and go to the hospital, I pay nothing for my visit regardless if its the flu, coronavirus or cancer. And I pay about $85 a month for my private health insurance on top of the government option.

That's great claims for Covid 19 will be paid out (who knows how quickly) but as usual, you're screwed if you don't have good insurance and you get anything else.

[Oxbow6]

6 minutes ago, southpaw said:

What's the major difference between the death toll in Italy vs South Korea? The policies put in place by the governments of those countires.

SK had 10x the cases in mid-February when they shut the country down. Italy, chose to be lax about it, and now they're number two in deaths with nearly double the number of cases per million as South Korea.

Nobody is expecting the government to save you from viruses. But maybe having testing kits available would be helpful. The CDC chose to create their own (defective) tests instead of using the proven WHO ones. South Korea is testing 10,000 people a day. As of yesterday, the U.S. has tested fewer than 16,000. 

Right now, in the U.S. if you're incredibly sick and have flu-like symptoms you need to go to the hospital. At that point, you're almost hoping you have coronavirus because if it comes back as the flu then you're getting stuck with a massive bill. 

Here in Germany, if I have similar symptoms as above and go to the hospital, I pay nothing for my visit regardless if its the flu, coronavirus or cancer. And I pay about $85 a month for my private health insurance on top of the government option.

That's great claims for Covid 19 will be paid out (who knows how quickly) but as usual, you're screwed if you don't have good insurance and you get anything else.

New flash......our demographics in this country are not identical to either of those countries. Or Germany.

[UND1983]

20 minutes ago, Oxbow6 said:

We can not assemble in "large crowds" at sporting events, churches, ect... so let's shift the social gathering points to Walmarts, Sam's, Costco's, ect...

Had to make a run to Walmart after work for my wife last night. More people in that store than were at the last game of the Thursday night Class A session at the SHAC.

My youngest daughter just got back from MSP with some friends. Stayed at Great Wolf Lodge and went to MOA. She said both places were packed.

 

Great Wolf is shut down as of right now for next two weeks.  She must've just made the cut 

[Oxbow6]

Just now, UND1983 said:

Great Wolf is shut down as of right now for next two weeks.  She must've just made the cut 

LOL. Well she is home......and alive.

[yzerman19]

I would contend that there are significantly more variables at play than testing and government response (in regard to SKorea and Italy).  
 

im glad you like your German healthcare.  I can tell you this, If I were truly ill in Germany, I’d be on a plane to Rochester, Cleveland or Baltimore in two shakes of a lambs tail.