UND moving up?

[IowaBison]

i'd beat the first year you'd get 10,000 UND fans, but probably only 20,000 Minnesota fans, which means a half empty dome, but they get that when they big 10 teams

plus the pr would be worth just as much as the money they'd be taking home

[MafiaMan]

I think 20,000 Gopher fans is a bit optimistic. They only sell out WI, Michigan, and Iowa because of the number of OPPOSING fans who buy all the tickets!

[The Sicatoka]

Gophs = 2004 Big 10 champs and NDSU opponent in 2005.

BF1234 was on such a good streak there for a while, then this.

NDSU is doing 54.5 FB scholarships in 2004, then 63 in 2005 and 2006.

Why?

So their 3-year average is over 60.

So?

A DI-AA has to have averaged 60 FB scholarships awarded over the previous three seasons to be allowed to play a DI-A in a "bodybag" game.

(NDSU) hopes to get to the Division I-AA maximum of 63 scholarships in 2005 so it can meet a three-year average of 60 by 2007.That's the number the NCAA requires before a I-AA team can schedule a I-A program. -- Jeff Kolpack, Fargo Forum, May 16, 2004

The earliest possible date (assuming the 63s are met)? 2007.

Next, I wouldn't bet against Michigan in the Big Ten this season.

[MafiaMan]

Doesn't Minnesota pack its schedule with enough patsies already? Michigan opens up two years ago with Notre Dame in what was supposed to be a big game...Minnesota, on the other hand, opens up with THE Ohio University. Cupcake U!

[Hansel]

BF1234 was on such a good streak there for a while, then this.

NDSU is doing 54.5 FB scholarships in 2004, then 63 in 2005 and 2006.

Why?

So their 3-year average is over 60.

So?

A DI-AA has to have averaged 60 FB scholarships awarded over the previous three seasons to be allowed to play a DI-A in a "bodybag" game.

(NDSU) hopes to get to the Division I-AA maximum of 63 scholarships in 2005 so it can meet a three-year average of 60 by 2007.That's the number the NCAA requires before a I-AA team can schedule a I-A program. -- Jeff Kolpack, Fargo Forum, May 16, 2004

The earliest possible date (assuming the 63s are met)? 2007.

Next, I wouldn't bet against Michigan in the Big Ten this season.

[nodakvindy]

The 60 scholarship average is only a requirement if the I-A team needs to count the game to become bowl eligible. NDSU could have played USC or LSU this year, even UND could have. The win just wouldn't have counted toward making them bowl eligible. Schools can only count a I-AA win toward bowl eligibility once every four years I believe. Last year Kansas St. played a couple of I-AAs. They know they will be bowl eligible, so for them it's about home games and a sold out stadium. The new BCS formula may promote more I-A vs. I-AA games, as the polls weight so heavily that the schedule strength element isn't as much of a deterrent.

Sorry, somebison beat me to the punch on this.

[Bisonfan1234]

Doesn't Minnesota pack its schedule with enough patsies already? Michigan opens up two years ago with Notre Dame in what was supposed to be a big game...Minnesota, on the other hand, opens up with THE Ohio University. Cupcake U!

They play Toledo on Saturday, a top 25 team and Colorado State in a couple weeks, another team that might be top 25 by the time they play them.

[WYOBISONMAN]

s&!t guys.....sorry to hold the thread up.....another nice day in Wyoming so I just had to skip work and go golfing again....

As to admiting my "mistake" about "Death Valley"? Let me repeat myself clearly so there is NO confusion here.....DEATH VALLEY IS IN CLEMSON, SC......been there many times. Not sure about the little dive LSU plays in....maybe death somethin'.....but not THE DEATH VALLEY (where Howard's Rock is).....

[star2city]

I think it's kinda funny to read this post.  Especially the parts where UND and NDSU fans argue about whatever they argue about................I currently live in Fargo........I have a family member playing for the Sioux right now.........Ive watched him play there since 2001..........So yes Im a Fighting Sioux Fan~  We also both grew up watching the NDSU Bison.........Obviously the past years Ive rooted for the Sioux...............I think its great that NDSU went DV 1aa........I think the state of North dakota needs that...............I'm also glad UND has not moved up to DV 1aa....and i really hope they dont.........so players like my brother who has played since 2001 in 2 national championship games and is currently a starter get a chance to go to a program like UND..............In 5 years from now when we look through the roster at NDSU....I will garantee you dont see many familiar names of players.....Fargo Souths.,..West fargos...etc etc  there wont be many players from them schools playing there..........Theres a few players from North dakota each year with D 1 capability....so i would hope UND would remain D2....which i understand prolly wont happen...........

Siouxfan48 and SiouxTx:

Welcome! It's good to see some new names on the board. I agree with what Siouxfan48 wrote. But one upcoming change to keep in mind is that U of Mary in Bismarck will most likely be a Div II school by 2006-7, so there should still be opportunities for North Dakota Div II caliber athletes no matter what direction UND pursues.

[star2city]

Just as a reminder of some history, here's a blurb from NCAA News - 1999.

The Omaha World-Herald reported that the University of North Dakota, North Dakota State University and the University of Northern Colorado met August 10 with the Big Sky Conference to discuss the ramifications of moving their programs to Division I-AA. Big Sky Commissioner Doug Fullerton told The Associated Press the talks were not meant to encourage or discourage the schools from considering the change but to inform them of what would be involved if they chose to change divisions. "I think they're looking at it as an educational meeting, just to understand what I-AA would entail," North Central Intercollegiate Athletic Conference Commissioner Michael J. Marcil told the Omaha World-Herald. "But I do know that literally that's something some of the institutions have considered as long as 20 years ago. Periodically, several institutions around Division II will look at I-AA, but hopefully in the end they will see what we have here is tough to beat."

So in 1999, Doug Fullerton had discussions with Terry Wanless, then of UND and now of Big Sky member Sacramento State. So how often do Roger Thomas, Terry Wanless, and by extension, Doug Fullerton talk nowadays? And about what? Surely Fullerton is more than informed of UND's capabilities and he is more than aware of UND's desire not to move without a conference affiliation.

As a side note, listening to the UND/Delta State game on Saturday from the Delta State broadcasters perspective was interesting, as they were in awe of the amount of revenue that UND hockey produces and almost in disbelief of UND's Div II status. The point: clearly UND is seen as a 'have' in the world of Div II and even from the perspective of lower levels of Div I.

Which brings a final point: if or when UND goes D-I, the journey will not be done with some mule-drawn one-sport cart as other schools attempt, but in a HUMVEE. There will be five fully funded, revenue generating sports (M&W H, M&W BB, FB) that will power the move. If there is a tire that blows out, a spare will be available. Other schools have attempted the move with one-sport driven cart (football or basketball, not both), which practically assures some major difficulties. A new D-I program capable of fully sponsoring scholarships and D-I schedules in D-I facilities for five revenue generating sports simultaneously is unheard of. UND is likely approaching that capability within a few years. [Note: It is not intended to infer that Women's hockey is a net positive revenue producer, but that revenues this year and subsequent years are likely to jump dramatically as the schedule will now include home series with the likes of Minnesota and Wisconsin.]

[Cratter]

Star2City, your one of my favorite posters. Keep up the good work.

[Smoggy]

Just as a reminder of some history, here's a blurb from NCAA News - 1999.

So in 1999, Doug Fullerton had discussions with Terry Wanless, then of UND and now of Big Sky member Sacramento State. So how often do Roger Thomas, Terry Wanless, and by extension, Doug Fullerton talk nowadays? And about what? Surely Fullerton is more than informed of UND's capabilities and he is more than aware of UND's desire not to move without a conference affiliation.

As a side note, listening to the UND/Delta State game on Saturday from the Delta State broadcasters perspective was interesting, as they were in awe of the amount of revenue that UND hockey produces and almost in disbelief of UND's Div II status. The point: clearly UND is seen as a 'have' in the world of Div II and even from the perspective of lower levels of Div I.

Which brings a final point: if or when UND goes D-I, the journey will not be done with some mule-drawn one-sport cart as other schools attempt, but in a HUMVEE. There will be five fully funded, revenue generating sports (M&W H, M&W BB, FB) that will power the move. If there is a tire that blows out, a spare will be available. Other schools have attempted the move with one-sport driven cart (football or basketball, not both), which practically assures some major difficulties. A new D-I program capable of fully sponsoring scholarships and D-I schedules in D-I facilities for five revenue generating sports simultaneously is unheard of. UND is likely approaching that capability within a few years. [Note: It is not intended to infer that Women's hockey is a net positive revenue producer, but that revenues this year and subsequent years are likely to jump dramatically as the schedule will now include home series with the likes of Minnesota and Wisconsin.]

You make a great point about UND's programs. The reason that UND could and should be successful as an athletic whole at DI is because they have multiple major sports that they are successful at.

Personally, I've always thought that UND is better off in DII. But, reading what others have to say is beginning to change my mind.

I still believe there needs to be major changes to the classification of NCAA sports for schools the size of UND to be able to continue to support and challenge their sports programs.

[star2city]

Cratter:

Thanks for the compliment. Since my posts often emphasize the business side of athletics, others may find them uninteresting (or even threatening for certain viewers from schools further south).

cheeringsiouxfromsmoggycali:

I'm still on the D-II side of the fence, but if three criteria are met: (a) scholarships fully endowed, (b) football practice facilties upgraded, and (c ) conference membership obtained, D-I would get a green light from me (not that it would carry any weight ). As with patient investors who wait for the right moment, #c can be realized without the huge financial (and momentum) penalty of being an independent. D-II has some as yet unrecognized fringe benefits: specifially as host of championships, which will not be available at the D-I level.

[dakotadan]

One thing that no one has mentioned yet is the swimming championships in our program this year. At saturdays football game, they will be presenting seven(I believe) ncaa swimming championship RINGS during half time. Just another sport that could/will compete off of the bat if UND goes DI. From day 1 I have thrown Mens and Womens basketball, and Mens football and hockey in as staples of our atheltic program. But something that people have to take into consideratoin is our womens hockey program which I believe will grow into a DI national power in the next few years and our swimming and diving program. It is not as if UND moves to DI that we will be putting all of our eggs in one basket!!!!!!!!

[dakotadan]

That has to be one of my biggest points about UND. UND has so many successful programs in DII that if we go DI it's not as if we don't have many sports that we can expect to be successful in a matter of time. Men's hockey, women's hockey, men's and women's basketball to some degree, football, and swimming and diving. These have been UND's most successful programs. Which they are right now. But the programs that UND and its Alumni can expect and invest in and know they will receive a return!!!!!!! Depending upon what you are looking at.

[dakotadan]

UND has so many options of going DI, It is just a matter of what road they want to take and how long they want to take it!!!!!!!!!

[UND Fan]

Guys - one factor that continues to be overlooked in the discussions about moving to DI is having the ability to recruit that caliber of athlete to your school. My biggest concern is just that. Two major factors are against us - geography and the weather.

I will preface my comments by saying that my thoughts do not apply to football - I think we could be quite competitive in IAA in a fairly short period of time. Obviously, we are already a power in hockey. My comments do apply to ALL other sports.

We would likely continue to get talented athletes out of Minnesota and a few from Wisconsin (we all know that, unfortunately, there aren't many in ND - mainly due to the dwindling population base). Getting DI quality kids from other parts of the country would be very difficult - we are a long way from home for them. The good ones would have many other options. This also adversely affects recruiting costs. Not many kids can drive to Grand Forks for their recruiting visit compared to most other DI schools. Flying to GF is expensive and having to go through Mpls reinforces that GF is "in the boonies". Ask our BB coaches about recruiting young athletes to UND - expensive and you have to bring in a bunch to get a couple of commit. Plus, even in DI, a lot of kids like to play near their parents, girlfriends, etc.

There is no arguing that the winters in GF are long and cold. Don't for a second think that that isn't used against UND by other recruiters when a kid is trying to make a decision. Many recruiting visits for various sports are made during the winter. 20 below temperatures with 30 mph winds aren't too impressive for kids who come from more southern locations.

While we may have the facilities (we need in an indoor practice facility and our track, baseball, softball and soccer facilities leave a lot to be desired) and maybe the money, we have to get the "right" athletes to be able to be competitive. I, for one, do not want to make the move unless we can be competitive in most sports. Despite our great success in swimming and women's BB at the DII level, we won't be powers in DI. I also don't see us being able to compete in VB, baseball, softball, soccer, track, etc.

The money issue also scares me. The costs of recruiting and scholarships grow greatly - expecially recruiting. Remember - just about everyone will have to fly into GF and that we have to bring more athletes than average in to get a specific number to commit. We would need to develop more income from attendance - FB and BB. I am not sure that a tremendous improvement could be expected. We just don't have a great population base to draw from. Will BB atendance grow if we have mediocre results - I am not sure!

All this being said, I would reluctantly agree that a move up is appropriate if DII FB scholarships are cut again. But, if so, we all need to be prepared for being average at very best in all sports but hockey and FB.

THIS POST IS MEANT ONLY FOR THE SITUATION AT UND. IT IS NOT INTENDED TO OPEN (OR CONTINUE) ANY DEBATE ABOUT NDSU's DECISION TO MOVE UP. IN FACT, I WOULD PREFER NOT TO HAVE ANY RESPONSES IN REGARD SU AT ALL. SU GUYS - PLEASE DON'T THINK YOU NEED TO JUSTIFY YOUR DECISION TO MOVE UP. IT REALLY DOESN'T HAVE ANY AFFECT ON UND - OTHER THAN WE WILL WATCH IT CLOSELY TO SEE HOW THEIR TRANSITION PROGRESSES IN SPORTS OTHER THAN FB.

[Bisonfan1234]

Why the hell do you guys keep thinking you need an indoor practice facility?

Only a dozen or so BCS schools even have those.

You have the Alerus, use it.

[IowaBison]

Good try UND Fan, I'm going to post anyways

I don't think that UND will have difficulty fielding decent teams in any sports at the DI level---as I've stated before you are a DI team in D2 clothing, as this is a football forum i stick to that sport

There is a lot of talent in the Dakotas and Minnesota to do 'ok' you pull in a few kids from Wisconsin, Chicago and the south for some additional speed and your set.

One big difference is you may need to start red shirting some kids, get them in the weight room and what not, when you may not have had to do that before

I don't see how you wouldn't be a rated team in DIAA Football in most weeks and most years

[IowaBison]

I have a question related to this string

and I'll definitely take guesses for answers

which UND sports can be considered 'self-supporting'

men's hockey is a gimme

football i say yes

any others?

especially women's hockey, and men's and women's basketball

if anybody has an idea figures on how much they generate and how much they spend would be of interest, this would exclude alumni contributions/facility improvement type stuff

also how much do your alumni contribute per year both including and excluding hockey

[Bisonfan1234]

It's pretty clear that men's hockey pays the bills @ UND with Football and Women's BBall helping out a little.

[LennonIsTheMan]

I don't think that UND will have difficulty fielding decent teams

One big difference is you may need to start red shirting some kids, get them in the weight room and what not, when you may not have had to do that before

UND does red-shirt all its FB players. The last one to Not red-shirt was Jim Kleinsasser. The coaching staff WANTS kids to red-shirt.

[SIOUXTX]

[BigGame]

I think it's kinda funny to read this post. Especially the parts where UND and NDSU fans argue about whatever they argue about................I currently live in Fargo........I have a family member playing for the Sioux right now.........Ive watched him play there since 2001..........So yes Im a Fighting Sioux Fan~ We also both grew up watching the NDSU Bison.........Obviously the past years Ive rooted for the Sioux...............I think its great that NDSU went DV 1aa........I think the state of North dakota needs that...............I'm also glad UND has not moved up to DV 1aa....and i really hope they dont.........so players like my brother who has played since 2001 in 2 national championship games and is currently a starter get a chance to go to a program like UND..............In 5 years from now when we look through the roster at NDSU....I will garantee you dont see many familiar names of players.....Fargo Souths.,..West fargos...etc etc there wont be many players from them schools playing there..........Theres a few players from North dakota each year with D 1 capability....so i would hope UND would remain D2....which i understand prolly wont happen...........

I would have to say also that I am a huge UND fan obviously cause of having a bro playing right now.....But when NDSU wasnt playing UND these past years I was chearing for them also..............I think NDSU has a great football team....I also think UND has a great team......So instead of arguing about whatever why not support both teams....There both from the State we live in and there both very successfull teams...........and i will truly miss the NDSU-UND game.....i wish they would have played this year in Fargo .....i understand why they don't play...but i think it would have been a competeive fun game to watch no matter what team won.................

so i wish Both teams the best of luck this year and years to come............

Good post and I completely agree about supporting the other schools, I have had friends play at both schools and think we really should hope the other teams do well against any other competition. I do have a slight disagreement about ND talent and D1AA, IMO the only difference between a high level D2 team and D1AA team is depth. NDSU has done a lot of recruiting in ND and outside the normal recruiting area in order to build and better team and get more depth on the roster, but I would argue that UND is at least an equal if not better football team currently and has not had to do that type of recruiting.

[MafiaMan]

WYOBISONFAN...still living off of the Perry Tuttle 1983 NCAA title, are we? Clemson has great tradition and yes, they have their own "Death Valley," but let's let the Tigers and Bayou Bengals debate that. No sense being the Hatfields and McCoys over this issue.

Here we go again, Bisonfan1234...another fan touting the University of Toledo as a "big-time" Division I football opponent. Gimme a frickin' break.

Non-conference opponents for the Gophers...

2004: Toledo, Illinois State, Colorado State. I'll spot you that CSU is decent, even a top 25 club.

2003: Tulsa, Troy State, @ Ohio, Louisiana-Lafayette - you're kidding, right? I remember this 4-0 run that vaulted Minnesota into the top 25. Ugh.

2002: Texas State, @ Louisiana-Lafayette, Toledo, Buffalo - Buffalo...if memory serves me right, rated the worst D-1 school of the 117 D-1's three years running. Didn't Scott Bakula play in a bad movie in the 1980's with a green Texas State team? Sheesh. What a sad schedule.

2001: @ Toledo, Louisiana-Lafayette, Murray State - MURRAY FREAKIN' STATE?

Michigan non-conference schedule over the same period..

2004: Miami (OH), @ Notre Dame, San Diego State - Nothing major, but the Notre Dame game is a huge rivalry so anything can happen. And I'm sure ND will have revenge on their mind after last year's humiliating loss in Ann Arbor.

2003: Central Michigan, Houston, Notre Dame, @ Oregon - Smaller Michigan schools contracting to play at the Big House, Houston ended up being a Bowl team by the end of the season, again, big rivalry with Notre Dame that turned out to be disaster for NDU this time around, and @ Oregon...two out of four big-name opponents.

2002: Washington, @ Western Michigan, @ Notre Dame, Utah - I was at this home opener...#8 vs #9 in the country. Washington went on to lose a heart-breaker and had a disappointing season. @ Notre Dame was a loss for Michigan in a surprising big season for the Irish. Again, two good opponents in four non-conference games right out of the chute.

2001: Miami (OH), @ Washington, Western Michigan - Another big loss on the road to a big-time opponent in September for Michigan. One out of three solid clubs, two cupcakes.

The defense rests, Bisonfan1234. The bottom line is you tout potential top 25 opponents as major players all you want. Glenn Mason can be happy with his Sun Bowl trophies. At Michigan, coaches are fired for 8-4 seasons.

Now...back to the North Dakota move up to D1-AA debate...