Coach Jones?

[Cratter]

2 hours ago, ArtVandalay said:

Can you even get intelligence pills?  

Tis a thing among wall streeters and ivy leaguers looking for an edge.

[darell1976]

54 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

Whether you agree what he said or not, he wasn't wrong in what he stated, just like you weren't in what you stated. If there was a clear cut answer to this one way or another, this wouldn't be debated. As it stands, Jones has done just enough to not lose his job but clearly not enough to warrant any sort of substantial raise or contract extension.

He was wrong in thinking I want this team to lose just so I can post on this thread. I never ever want a UND team to lose, even when Muss was coaching I didn't attend a game or watch a game cheering for the other team. A true fan doesn't do that. 

[AJS]

1 hour ago, darell1976 said:

He was wrong in thinking I want this team to lose just so I can post on this thread. I never ever want a UND team to lose, even when Muss was coaching I didn't attend a game or watch a game cheering for the other team. A true fan doesn't do that. 

This is a tricky situation, where you know the program isn't where it can be if they went another direction. I look at it as a tough love situation. If we are doing hypothetical situations and this year it came down to keeping Jones if they made the title game and lost or going another direction if they lose the semi-final game, then I truly would prefer that they lose the semi-final game. Obviously we wouldn't know the outcome of the Final game, so you'd cheer for them to win the semi-final.

This post won't be a like machine, but I've seen enough of Jones coached teams at UND. They Big Sky isn't a great basketball conference and even the years they have performed well, they are barely over .500. The mediocrity needs to end. 

[AJS]

4 hours ago, homer said:

The largest ROI for our athletic dept is men's basketball.  More people would see them in a first round tourney game than any other sport/broadcast.  It needs to be treated as such if a new higher should be made.   Jones has done nothing to warrant a raise.  Very good recruiter (even in the tundra) so far an average coach and player developer.  

Faison and Kennedy need to realize this. Find the right coach that can raise the profile of men's bball. There's potential to be a lot of fun years ahead being a UND fan with hockey where it's at and Football on the rise. Now it's time to fix the bball program. 

[darell1976]

3 minutes ago, AJS said:

This is a tricky situation, where you know the program isn't where it can be if they went another direction. I look at it as a tough love situation. If we are doing hypothetical situations and this year it came down to keeping Jones if they made the title game and lost or going another direction if they lose the semi-final game, then I truly would prefer that they lose the semi-final game. Obviously we wouldn't know the outcome of the Final game, so you'd cheer for them to win the semi-final.

This post won't be a like machine, but I've seen enough of Jones coached teams at UND. They Big Sky isn't a great basketball conference and even the years they have performed well, they are barely over .500. The mediocrity needs to end. 

But to call out someone saying you want them to lose intentionally just to post on a Fire thread is absurd. I don't like Jones, there are lots who dislike them, but would someone actually cheer for the other team just to despise Jones? I have not or would not do that. If somehow this team racked up 15 wins in a row, crushed opponents in the tournament and made the dance, I would be more than happy, hell I would give Jones a lot of credit of turning this team around. But if we go .500 overall, limp into the CIT and lose in the first round, of course I am going to voice my displeasure like others have. But my loyalty will always be for UND, and I voice what I think is for the good of the school, just like I thought removing Mussman was for the good of football program, I see how that turned out.

[ArtVandalay]

18 minutes ago, darell1976 said:

But to call out someone saying you want them to lose intentionally just to post on a Fire thread is absurd. I don't like Jones, there are lots who dislike them, but would someone actually cheer for the other team just to despise Jones? I have not or would not do that. If somehow this team racked up 15 wins in a row, crushed opponents in the tournament and made the dance, I would be more than happy, hell I would give Jones a lot of credit of turning this team around. But if we go .500 overall, limp into the CIT and lose in the first round, of course I am going to voice my displeasure like others have. But my loyalty will always be for UND, and I voice what I think is for the good of the school, just like I thought removing Mussman was for the good of football program, I see how that turned out.

Fair enough. Then wait until the season is over instead of being the first to jump to the "Fire Jones" thread every time they are having a bad half. 

[darell1976]

2 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said:

Fair enough. Then wait until the season is over instead of being the first to jump to the "Fire Jones" thread every time they are having a bad half. 

Have you looked back at recent posts after a loss...I am far from being the first to respond. I can direct you to those posts to help you out.

[ArtVandalay]

5 minutes ago, darell1976 said:

Have you looked back at recent posts after a loss...I am far from being the first to respond. I can direct you to those posts to help you out.

That's alright. I know how you roll. Anyway, who started this thread?

[darell1976]

4 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said:

Fair enough. Then wait until the season is over instead of being the first to jump to the "Fire Jones" thread every time they are having a bad half. 

http://forum.siouxsports.com/topic/19051-fire-brian-jones/?page=101

Nov 25-27th and Dec 7th UND 2-2--first post by Siouxfan512 on Dec 8th 22 days from the previous post.

Dec 10, and Dec 16th both losses--first post by geaux-sioux on on Dec 16th 8 days from the previous post

Dec 20 loss to Iowa--first post by Feff on Dec 21st 1 day from the previous post

Dec 29th lost to PSU--first post by Siouxperfan7 on Dec 30th 6 days from previous post.

So care to retract your post?

 

 

[darell1976]

2 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said:

That's alright. I know how you roll. Anyway, who started this thread?

So what? He should have been canned over 2 years ago. Just like Mussman should have been canned when I started that thread. I am glad more and more people are getting on board with getting rid of Jones and wanting change than the same crap hand we have been handed every year he has been at UND.

[ArtVandalay]

2 minutes ago, darell1976 said:

http://forum.siouxsports.com/topic/19051-fire-brian-jones/?page=101

Nov 25-27th and Dec 7th UND 2-2--first post by Siouxfan512 on Dec 8th 22 days from the previous post.

Dec 10, and Dec 16th both losses--first post by geaux-sioux on on Dec 16th 8 days from the previous post

Dec 20 loss to Iowa--first post by Feff on Dec 21st 1 day from the previous post

Dec 29th lost to PSU--first post by Siouxperfan7 on Dec 30th 6 days from previous post.

So care to retract your post?

 

 

No. Not really. 

[ArtVandalay]

1 minute ago, darell1976 said:

So what? He should have been canned over 2 years ago. Just like Mussman should have been canned when I started that thread. I am glad more and more people are getting on board with getting rid of Jones and wanting change than the same crap hand we have been handed every year he has been at UND.

You started it 5 games into the conference season. Finished runner-up in conference that season. 

[darell1976]

Just now, ArtVandalay said:

You started it 5 games into the conference season. Finished runner-up in conference that season. 

And where are we now. Mussman won a GWFC title, look where he is now, and look where our football team is now. Sorry you get nothing for runner up. Bubba has a trophy to look at. 

[ArtVandalay]

3 minutes ago, darell1976 said:

And where are we now. Mussman won a GWFC title, look where he is now, and look where our football team is now. Sorry you get nothing for runner up. Bubba has a trophy to look at. 

Oh my God Darrell, you won!!  You finally got through to me with Mussman argument. You won!  I really didn't think you could ever do it but you did it. You really did it. And A Bubba throw-in as well. Whew, glad we are done. Good luck to ya fella!

[MadScout03]

Trolling. Don't waste your breath, Darell. 

[darell1976]

33 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said:

Oh my God Darrell, you won!!  You finally got through to me with Mussman argument. You won!  I really didn't think you could ever do it but you did it. You really did it. And A Bubba throw-in as well. Whew, glad we are done. Good luck to ya fella!

We are done.

[bang]

8 hours ago, darell1976 said:

And where are we now. Mussman won a GWFC title, look where he is now, and look where our football team is now. Sorry you get nothing for runner up. Bubba has a trophy to look at. 

Although I agree that the MBB program could use a change. You can't compare the Big Sky to the Great West. No comparison. It's been said on here before. Jones needs that signature win and then needs to build on that. Right now this program is in a decade or better rut with him at the helm. His winning percentage is  well under 500. Even with the transition that should be unacceptable. Without a top three finish this year it might be time to move on. For sure anything outside a top 5 will get him tossed. Atleast in my kind. 

[darell1976]

36 minutes ago, bang said:

Although I agree that the MBB program could use a change. You can't compare the Big Sky to the Great West. No comparison. It's been said on here before. Jones needs that signature win and then needs to build on that. Right now this program is in a decade or better rut with him at the helm. His winning percentage is  well under 500. Even with the transition that should be unacceptable. Without a top three finish this year it might be time to move on. For sure anything outside a top 5 will get him tossed. Atleast in my kind. 

This is what Art said: 

Quote

You started it 5 games into the conference season. Finished runner-up in conference that season. 

I bolded the point of comparing that to Mussman's highlight season, the 2011 GWFC title, which isn't saying much when you look at what Bubba did this year, and just think what a Jonesless team may accomplish (hopefully in the 17-18 season). 

[bang]

Just now, darell1976 said:

This is what Art said: 

I bolded the point of comparing that to Mussman's highlight season, the 2011 GWFC title, which isn't saying much when you look at what Bubba did this year, and just think what a Jonesless team may accomplish. 

I agree with you I just don't think we can use even a runner up finish in the Big Sky to a Great West title. Looking at the numbers which don't lie. Jones has reached 20 losses twice in his 10 full seasons while reaching 20 wins zero times. Only 4 winning seasons and never winning a conference title. 

I'd hate to see mid season firing. Cause I think usually that hurts everybody. Yet, without a good conference finish I think a change is unavoidable. 

[petey23]

43 minutes ago, bang said:

Although I agree that the MBB program could use a change. You can't compare the Big Sky to the Great West. No comparison. It's been said on here before. Jones needs that signature win and then needs to build on that. Right now this program is in a decade or better rut with him at the helm. His winning percentage is  well under 500. Even with the transition that should be unacceptable. Without a top three finish this year it might be time to move on. For sure anything outside a top 5 will get him tossed. Atleast in my kind. 

I am not as focused on top 2 or top 3 this season as with the bottom of the league being down this year the records could be top heavy, so if we go 12-6 and that puts us in 4th---so be it.

I do expect and I would hope the Athletic Department has the following expectations for basketball this season....not saying you have to check them all off but if a couple are missed, some others better not be.

Big Sky Tournament Champions

AND/OR

Big Sky Regular Season Champions

13-5 or 12-6 in league at worst....take care of business at home and should beat SUU, NAU, and Idaho State anywhere you play them. Pick up another road win or 2 against the other 4(Montana, Montana St., Weber, UNC)

9-0 or 8-1 at home.

Team is ready and prepared to play every night.

[darell1976]

1 minute ago, petey23 said:

I am not as focused on top 2 or top 3 this season as with the bottom of the league being down this year the records could be top heavy, so if we go 12-6 and that puts us in 4th---so be it.

I do expect and I would hope the Athletic Department has the following expectations for basketball this season....not saying you have to check them all off but if a couple are missed, some others better not be.

Big Sky Tournament Champions

Big Sky Regular Season Champions

13-5 or 12-6 in league at worst....take care of business at home and should beat SUU, NAU, and Idaho State anywhere you play them. Pick up another road win or 2 against the other 4(Montana, Montana St., Weber, UNC)

9-0 or 8-1 at home.

Team is ready and prepared to play every night.

How about a 20 win season, 19 was his best in 2010-11 GWC days, and 17 is his best in the Big Sky. 

[jdub27]

9 hours ago, darell1976 said:

Have you looked back at recent posts after a loss...I am far from being the first to respond. I can direct you to those posts to help you out.

The problem is you always seem to be the loudest voice and have continuously showed no regard for actual realities of the situation. You make a decision that a coach needs to go, start a thread (at least 3 different ones for 2 different coaches) and then seem to pop up almost every time that the team loses and say nothing when they are performing well. Yes, there are others, but as I've stated before, the squeakiest wheel gets the grease. The latter part of my statement is the part that probably bothers people the most. It is one thing to have an opinion that a coach needs to go or , its another to continue to rail on and on how a change needs to be made immediately when the financial and logistical realities of the situation don't allow for it and you seemingly absolutely refuse to acknowledge them. The perception is that it has almost become personal and you need the coach to be fired to be vindicated. While I highly doubt that is the case as I do believe you have the best interest of UND in mind with your criticism, there are a lot more factors and it is much more complicated than overall W-L records whether anyone likes it or not. Mistaking that for blindly supporting a coach is a line that fails to be grasped sometimes. The majority here want what is best for UND. Some posters on here have more knowledge of situations than you might think, which is something to consider when their opinions might not match yours.

Take for example my comment about you refusing to acknowledge what ArtVandalay said being true about where Jones has finished in the conference the last 5 years and how it compares pretty well with almost any other team (along with me also acknowledging what you said was also true). Even after I specifically stated you did that, you still refused to acknowledge it.

Before you try to go there, I'm not stating that he shouldn't be on the hot seat. My guess is that budget issues played into him still coaching here this year, the optics of having to buy out a coach's contract, regardless of size, while the rest of the University is cutting funds left and right aren't great. Him not having an extension would also make it pretty obvious he is coaching for his job, though I'm not sure where the bar has been set, but my guess is fairly high.

[Siouxperfan7]

If the team finishes with around a .500 record and finishes in the middle of the Big Sky, Jones is done. Anything short of a regular season title or at the very least a tournament Championship game appearance and he is gone.  Jones probably knows this.  Tough spot to be in as a coach when you are coaching for your job.

[fightingsioux4life]

7 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

The problem is you always seem to be the loudest voice and have continuously showed no regard for actual realities of the situation. You make a decision that a coach needs to go, start a thread (at least 3 different ones for 2 different coaches) and then seem to pop up almost every time that the team loses and say nothing when they are performing well. Yes, there are others, but as I've stated before, the squeakiest wheel gets the grease. The latter part of my statement is the part that probably bothers people the most. It is one thing to have an opinion that a coach needs to go or , its another to continue to rail on and on how a change needs to be made immediately when the financial and logistical realities of the situation don't allow for it and you seemingly absolutely refuse to acknowledge them. The perception is that it has almost become personal and you need the coach to be fired to be vindicated. While I highly doubt that is the case as I do believe you have the best interest of UND in mind with your criticism, there are a lot more factors and it is much more complicated than overall W-L records whether anyone likes it or not.

Take for example my comment about you refusing to acknowledge what ArtVandalay said being true about where Jones has finished in the conference the last 5 years and how it compares pretty well with almost any other team (along with me also acknowledging what you said was also true). Even after I specifically stated you did that, you still refused to acknowledge it.

Before you try to go there, I'm not stating that he shouldn't be on the hot seat. My guess is that budget issues played into him still coaching here this year, the optics of having to buy out a coach's contract, regardless of size, while the rest of the University is cutting funds left and right aren't great. Him not having an extension would also make it pretty obvious he is coaching for his job, though I'm not sure where the bar has been set, but my guess is fairly high.

Well, somebody has to be the bad guy and tell it like it is. I have been that guy before and I am glad Darrell is here so I don't always have to do it. Darrell was right about Muss and I suspect he is right about Jones too. But all he gets is flack from people for not being positive all the time. Well, I appreciate his truth-telling and it is unfortunate that others don't appreciate it more.

And as for the "optics of buying out a coach's contract" in the current budget situation, that didn't seem to be a problem when it came time to buy out Muss. If it is important enough, we will find a way. If not, we will find an excuse.

Finally, I don't care if MBB finishes in the top half of the Big Sky Conference. The benchmarks for this program must be higher than that or there is no point in having a Division I MBB team.

[jdub27]

15 minutes ago, fightingsioux4life said:

Well, somebody has to be the bad guy and tell it like it is. I have been that guy before and I am glad Darrell is here so I don't always have to do it.

And as for the "optics of buying out a coach's contract" in the current budget situation, that didn't seem to be a problem when it came time to buy out Muss. If it is important enough, we will find a way. If not, we will find an excuse.

Finally, I don't care if MBB finishes in the top half of the Big Sky Conference. The benchmarks for this program must be higher than that or there is no point in having a Division I MBB team.

Congrats for completely missing the point. Just because you give your opinion, doesn't mean you are some sort of martyr and that "you are the bad guy and tell it like it is". You are doing just that and nothing more: giving your opinion. And in doing so, you should expect others to do the same and there is no need to get all worked up when someone doesn't agree with you. Different people have different perspectives and those opinions are often based on different information. I flat out stated, everyone should have their own opinions but there is a lot more to situations and when people refuse to consider those things, it makes their opinion carry a lot less weight with people because it gives the appearance of a pitchfork mob that has one goal in mind with no regards for anything else.

Mussman's contract buyout didn't come during the middle of a enormous budget issues plus there were private funds that helped fund it. The situations are completely different and if you can't acknowledge that, than you are again ignoring the realities of real life that they people who are paid to make these decisions deal with. There is no comparison to budget issues from this past year to 3+ years ago.

I'm not sure who your comment about expectations for the program is directed at but I don't believe anyone has said that is their expectation on an ongoing basis.