UND looks to bounce back vs. Waldorf

[jdub27]

What is sick is the same people who like to make excuses to keep this guy coaching and to continue to run the program into the ground. People demand a change because this team is not being coached the way they should and the result is in the wins and losses especially the blowout losses. You can go ahead and think I and others get a thrill over UND losing so we can say we were right. Well you are so wrong. I get upset that this team loses but will always continue to support the players (not Jones) but the players, because they are trying their best, while being coached by someone who has no clue what he is doing. We all saw the same thing with Mussman and he did run that program into the ground including losing to a lesser team (Sioux Falls), which parallel's Jones' loss to Mayville St. (a lesser team). Bubba had to pick up the pieces and butts are starting to come back to the Alerus and the word playoffs have come back to life, do you think the Betty is going to be sold out and playoffs will be talked about when referring to the men's basketball team? People want a change and quick.

Again, please point me to the people (outside of one or two) who have advocated for an extension, said Jones isn't coaching for his job and will finish out his contract or that there isn't issues.

People want a lot of things, and it is a good thing that the fans don't get to make the hard decisions. People wanted Hak fired too. Unfortunately talk is cheap and changes cost money, which doesn't grow on trees especially as the state/Universities face budget cuts and UND has implemented FCOA. LSU boosters want Les Milse gone, they raised $15 million+ in no time to do it. That happens at UND and you can see changes as fast as you want.

You forgot to point out NDSU's loss to Moorhead a few years back as a lesser loss as a definitive example something is wrong and a coach should be fired immediately.

You really seemed to support the players by jumping all over the team early last night when the game was close but then not saying a word when they got things figured out in the second half. If Waldorf is as bad as you claimed, the players shouldn't have needed any coaching to sleepwalk through the game. So who's fault was the first half? 

 

You do know the announcers said Waldorf plays in DII of the NAIA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAIA_Men's_Basketball_Championships#Division_II

I stand corrected on that, my apologies.

[darell1976]

I get what you are saying as, yes, it does seem to be repetitive responses concerning the BB team and their coach.  However, what also is repetitive is their results.  Year after year after year.  Get blown out by high-majors, beat NAIA teams, beat some Big Sky teams they are supposed to or are even with, maybe pull one minor upset of a low/mid major and end the year around .500.  Every year the same thing.  

Some of us have been following the UND BB team for over 30 years now.  Some probably longer than that.  I have seen all sorts of teams hit the floor, from Gunther's to Glas's best to Glas's average teams at the end.  So there is a point of reference when talking about how I/we feel the Mens BB program could be much better than they are right now.  The Big Sky Conference is not some D1 juggernaut that is insurmountable for them to climb.  And when it comes to pure "competitiveness/giveadamn" I am not even going to go into that.  

Concerning your point on "issues that need to be addressed".  Jones program has not changed in his 9+ years here and nothing is going to change now.  His mentality is what is going to guide the program his way.  The culture he creates and fosters is the UND Men's BB program.  So my point is what you are seeing is what you are going to get.  Nothing has changed and obviously will not change.  

Case in point: look at the FB program now that Bubba took over.  Many players quit, some were told to leave.  All to get the culture that Bubba wanted in the locker room.  That culture carried over to the field and UND overachieved this year to a 7-4 record.  Key word: Overachieved.  

 

This ^^^^^^^^

[jdub27]

I have already said top 4 Big Sky finish or it's time to make a change. I don't care about being young or needing a guy at this spot or that spot. It's Brian's program and has been for 10 years. Part of being a college coach is planning for the future and he has failed miserably in this aspect as it seems every year is back to the drawing board.( will give him credit for riding the Anderson, Huff, Webb class but when you take a shot on 1 class like that it needs to payoff).

That said, what I and a few others it seems, don't care for is a couple of twerps who obviously don't know jack s%it about sports and are probably great at their jobs  that are working hard to come up with "great" 6th grade level zingers like a couple schoolgirls.

By the way, our A.D. is doing his due diligence should the time come to make a move....and it is.

I hope things don't come apart to the point we would have to finish the season with an interim coach but barring a pleasant surprise from Coach Jones and this team I think the writing is on the wall for this being his last season at UND.

Agreed.

 

I get what you are saying as, yes, it does seem to be repetitive responses concerning the BB team and their coach.  However, what also is repetitive is their results.  Year after year after year.  Get blown out by high-majors, beat NAIA teams, beat some Big Sky teams they are supposed to or are even with, maybe pull one minor upset of a low/mid major and end the year around .500.  Every year the same thing.  

Some of us have been following the UND BB team for over 30 years now.  Some probably longer than that.  I have seen all sorts of teams hit the floor, from Gunther's to Glas's best to Glas's average teams at the end.  So there is a point of reference when talking about how I/we feel the Mens BB program could be much better than they are right now.  The Big Sky Conference is not some D1 juggernaut that is insurmountable for them to climb.  And when it comes to pure "competitiveness/giveadamn" I am not even going to go into that.  

Concerning your point on "issues that need to be addressed".  Jones program has not changed in his 9+ years here and nothing is going to change now.  His mentality is what is going to guide the program his way.  The culture he creates and fosters is the UND Men's BB program.  So my point is what you are seeing is what you are going to get.  Nothing has changed and obviously will not change.  

Case in point: look at the FB program now that Bubba took over.  Many players quit, some were told to leave.  All to get the culture that Bubba wanted in the locker room.  That culture carried over to the field and UND overachieved this year to a 7-4 record.  Key word: Overachieved.  

Agree for the most part. I thought there were some changes as the Huff/Anderson/Webb class got older (and not necessarily for the better). I thought the problem(s), on and off the court, was a result of the group of players and  the chemistry they had, but due to the talent and other things (D-1 transition, nickname, etc), it was something that was what it was. There are glimmers of things that are starting to show up again (boxing out, defense, hustle), though not consistent enough yet. However there still seems to be too much of "just ball" on the offensive end and that definitely remains an issue.

[darell1976]

Again, please point me to the people (outside of one or two) who have advocated for an extension, said Jones isn't coaching for his job and will finish out his contract or that there isn't issues.

People want a lot of things, and it is a good thing that the fans don't get to make the hard decisions. People wanted Hak fired too. Unfortunately talk is cheap and changes cost money, which doesn't grow on trees especially as the state/Universities face budget cuts and UND has implemented FCOA. LSU boosters want Les Milse gone, they raised $15 million+ in no time to do it. That happens at UND and you can see changes as fast as you want.

You forgot to point out NDSU's loss to Moorhead a few years back as a lesser loss as a definitive example something is wrong and a coach should be fired immediately.

You really seemed to support the players by jumping all over the team early last night when the game was close but then not saying a word when they got things figured out in the second half. If Waldorf is as bad as you claimed, the players shouldn't have needed any coaching to sleepwalk through the game. So who's fault was the first half? 

 

I stand corrected on that, my apologies.

That game was an exhibition game, didn't count Saul wasn't fired and they finished 17-14 with a loss in the CBI

http://www.gobison.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=79&path=mbball

 

When UND lost to a non-exhibition game against Mayville (2009-10) they finished 8-23. Maybe he should've been canned then.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2015 by darell1976

[JTSchro]

Disclaimer: I'm not a Basketball guy. Last night was my first game I've attended since the Montana game in 2014, but I'll "jump in the paint" and give my take from what I saw.

 

The Game: Its well documented UND didn't have a great start and Waldorf played with UND the first half. While I was a little disappointed UND didn't play with the same fire was Waldorf, I think its pretty common for an opponent from a lesser division coming out swinging. Its the clichéd "it was there super bowl". With that said and also previously commented, UND came out and played much better in the second half. I thought they ramped up their defensive intensity and Waldorf couldn't keep up with the tempo. Shot started falling for UND as well. In the end, UND took care of business, but it would have been nice to see them ready from the tip.

 

The Players: I haven't seen Hooker since his freshman season and I think he has matured well. His command, composure, and vision, I thought, were impressive and improved. Crandall didn't flash to me, until the second half, when his skill and potential became evident. Obviously still a little raw, but someone to be excited to have. I was told to watch for Seales, but hardly noticed anything from him last night, he only played 16 minutes. Juries out on that one. The Big Men weren't too impressive and seemed like that might be a  weakness going into Big Sky play. Avants got rolling a little offensively late in the game, but when Hooker is on top of the box score with 7 boards, it seems a little backwards to me. Where is Cashman? I thought I had heard a lot of hype on him when he while he was being recruited.  

 

The Coach: Did a nice job tweaking the game plan and half, the players came out with new energy and seemed to execute the game play. Would be nice to start at the opening jump ball. His deficiencies are well documented and I can't say I disagree with them. During the game I couldn't look his way during the game. His body language was bothersome, always seemed to be whining about something.

 

I had fun at the game and would like to go to another, preferable a Big Sky opponent.  

 

 

[UNDBIZ]

I actually have noticed some changes on offense with this group compared to prior years. The current team is much more likely to drive and then dish it back outside or to a big whose defender left him than prior teams, who would simply drive and put up a circus shot. Unfortunately we don't have a capable big or a couple solid 3 point shooters right now. 

[petey23]

I actually have noticed some changes on offense with this group compared to prior years. The current team is much more likely to drive and then dish it back outside or to a big whose defender left him than prior teams, who would simply drive and put up a circus shot. Unfortunately we don't have a capable big or a couple solid 3 point shooters right now. 

I think we have more depth and guys who can get hot from 3 point range than we have had in a couple of years.....Bernstine seems to have a good idea of how to keep his options open and make the good pass back outside when the double comes but if he and our other post players are not able to score on the block then as teams get the scouting report on us we will see a lot of man to man defense where teams don't double the ball on the block against us and dare our bigs to finish when we make the post entry and even some 3-2 zone looks.

[jdub27]

That game was an exhibition game, didn't count Saul wasn't fired and they finished 17-14 with a loss in the CBI

http://www.gobison.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=79&path=mbball

When UND lost to a non-exhibition game against Mayville (2009-10) they finished 8-23. Maybe he should've been canned then.

Considering NDSU played their regular rotation, you can call it whatever you want, they lost to MSUM. Braun/Bjorklund/Wright were juniors so they weren't a young team. Saying it was an exhibition is about as weak of an excuse as there is, it wouldn't hold if it was UND that lost the game nor would I expect it to.

[petey23]

Considering NDSU played their regular rotation, you can call it whatever you want, they lost to MSUM. Braun/Bjorklund/Wright were juniors so they weren't a young team. Saying it was an exhibition is about as weak of an excuse as there is, it wouldn't hold if it was UND that lost the game nor would I expect it to.

And after the game, Saul said no more to even playing Moorhead in exhibitions any longer.

Last year, Moorhead State put a beat down on UND in a closed door exhibition game  and regularly ran NDSU off the floor in pre season joint scrimmages.

[ericpnelson]

And after the game, Saul said no more to even playing Moorhead in exhibitions any longer.

Last year, Moorhead State put a beat down on UND in a closed door exhibition game  and regularly ran NDSU off the floor in pre season joint scrimmages.

really? that's interesting to know.

[fightingsioux4life]

 

However, it does get tiresome of seeing a handful of people who seem to get some sick perversion out of the team struggling so they can be "right" and say "I told you so". Criticism is more than fair game and rightfully deserved but when it is nothing but the same old repetitive stuff and knee jerk reactions that provide zero insight on the problem(s), it comes off the wrong way.

I don't think the vocal critics of Jones are getting any pleasure out of this team's struggles. But pointing them out is not a sin, as you seem to be suggesting. And yes, it does seem to be just a couple of posters that think Jones is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but those talking points need a response and that is what Darell and I are doing. As for providing "insight on the problem(s)", I think the track record of this regime speaks for itself and it does not speak well for our program or our university. Like I said, it is the supporters of Jones who need to provide a clear, coherent explanation as to why they are right and why Darell and I (and a few others) are wrong.

[fightingsioux4life]

People want a lot of things, and it is a good thing that the fans don't get to make the hard decisions. People wanted Hak fired too. Unfortunately talk is cheap and changes cost money, which doesn't grow on trees especially as the state/Universities face budget cuts and UND has implemented FCOA. LSU boosters want Les Milse gone, they raised $15 million+ in no time to do it. That happens at UND and you can see changes as fast as you want.

I get really tired of the "We can't afford it" argument. If that was the case, Mussman would still be in charge of FB. Obviously, Faison found the money to buy him out and make a much-needed change. I really hope he is monitoring the situation with MBB and is looking into what has to happen to make it a reality. And if people don't think that, it really is Faison's own fault; he has a reputation of being complacent and slow to act. We can debate how accurate it is, but that is why people on here second-guess him in situations like this.

[jdub27]

I don't think the vocal critics of Jones are getting any pleasure out of this team's struggles. But pointing them out is not a sin, as you seem to be suggesting. And yes, it does seem to be just a couple of posters that think Jones is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but those talking points need a response and that is what Darell and I are doing. As for providing "insight on the problem(s)", I think the track record of this regime speaks for itself and it does not speak well for our program or our university. Like I said, it is the supporters of Jones who need to provide a clear, coherent explanation as to why they are right and why Darell and I (and a few others) are wrong.

I literally bolded the part where I said criticism is fair game and rightfully deserved, so no, I'm not suggesting that pointing them out is a sin. In fact I welcome actual, thought out criticism and have plenty of my own. However continuously saying "Fire Jones" and accusing people of being his wife (or apparently brother now?) because they point out it is pretty much a reality that Jones will finish out the season is not providing a legitimate response to supposed talking points.

 

I get really tired of the "We can't afford it" argument. If that was the case, Mussman would still be in charge of FB. Obviously, Faison found the money to buy him out and make a much-needed change. I really hope he is monitoring the situation with MBB and is looking into what has to happen to make it a reality. And if people don't think that, it really is Faison's own fault; he has a reputation of being complacent and slow to act. We can debate how accurate it is, but that is why people on here second-guess him in situations like this.

On the flip side, the "who cares what it costs, it is easy to spend someone else's money" argument is frustrating as well. There's a difference between not being able to afford something and making proper, thought out decisions because they cost real money. That doesn't mean they can't be questioned but it also requires looking at both sides of the issue, not just the easy, knee-jerk one which is the only one that is often presented. There are legitimate concerns with state funding along with ongoing additional funds the athletic department will need going forward and it is likely going to require some uncomfortable decisions. These are real, material things. They are not excuses, they are realities. It doesn't mean that UND shouldn't have went D-1, it means that now, more than ever, the budget needs to be managed the right way.

Of course Faison is monitoring the MBB situation, pretty odd thing to question? If you're that hell-bent on immediate change, gather a group of people together, present the funds to Faison and you and darrell and whomever else can have your new coach whenever you want. I mean LSU managed to come up with $15 million+ in short time, surely a couple hundred grand wouldn't be tough. If not, don't expect any change until the season is over, right, wrong or indifferent.

[SWSiouxMN]

Legit question:

How much is the buyout?

[fightingsioux4life]

 

On the flip side, the "who cares what it costs, it is easy to spend someone else's money" argument is frustrating as well. There's a difference between not being able to afford something and making proper, thought out decisions because they cost real money. That doesn't mean they can't be questioned but it also requires looking at both sides of the issue, not just the easy, knee-jerk one which is the only one that is often presented. There are legitimate concerns with state funding along with ongoing additional funds the athletic department will need going forward and it is likely going to require some uncomfortable decisions. These are real, material things. They are not excuses, they are realities. It doesn't mean that UND shouldn't have went D-1, it means that now, more than ever, the budget needs to be managed the right way.

Of course Faison is monitoring the MBB situation, pretty odd thing to question? If you're that hell-bent on immediate change, gather a group of people together, present the funds to Faison and you and darrell and whomever else can have your new coach whenever you want. I mean LSU managed to come up with $15 million+ in short time, surely a couple hundred grand wouldn't be tough. If not, don't expect any change until the season is over, right, wrong or indifferent.

NDSU has had way more success since moving up than we have and they have to deal with the same "legitimate concerns with state funding" that UND does. As for raising money to buy out Jones, I don't think it would be too hard to get willing donors for that. The FB boosters stepped up to buy out Mussman and the MBB boosters will step up to buy out Jones.

And I really hope Jones proves me wrong and this team pulls it together this season and beyond. Just because I point out negative things doesn't mean I want to be right.

[UND92,96]

Legit question:

How much is the buyout?

Depends on the language in the contract. Lennon was making over double what Jones is, and his buyout, with one year remaining on his contract, was $55,000. I would guess that a hypothetical buyout of Jones' contract would be considerably less than his present yearly salary.

[Cratter]

Depends on the language in the contract. Lennon was making over double what Jones is, and his buyout, with one year remaining on his contract, was $55,000. I would guess that a hypothetical buyout of Jones' contract would be considerably less than his present yearly salary.

I like how SIU did that. Not a bad idea to implement at UND.

Also commonplace is you're buyout (contract) is "this" minus whatever you start to make at your new job that year if you get one.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Cratter

[jdub27]

NDSU has had way more success since moving up than we have and they have to deal with the same "legitimate concerns with state funding" that UND does. As for raising money to buy out Jones, I don't think it would be too hard to get willing donors for that. The FB boosters stepped up to buy out Mussman and the MBB boosters will step up to buy out Jones.

And I really hope Jones proves me wrong and this team pulls it together this season and beyond. Just because I point out negative things doesn't mean I want to be right.

The state funding issues are more on the horizon than current, the chancellor has already passed on the message to the schools to be prepared for them, which is why my point was that now more than ever, they need to properly manage the budget. And comparing any sort of accounting to NDSU's or its athletic department is funny. The advantage that UND does have is room to make some cuts (even if not popular).

[CMSioux]

I have already said top 4 Big Sky finish or it's time to make a change. I don't care about being young or needing a guy at this spot or that spot. It's Brian's program and has been for 10 years. Part of being a college coach is planning for the future and he has failed miserably in this aspect as it seems every year is back to the drawing board.( will give him credit for riding the Anderson, Huff, Webb class but when you take a shot on 1 class like that it needs to payoff).

That said, what I and a few others it seems, don't care for is a couple of twerps who obviously don't know jack s%it about sports and are probably great at their jobs  that are working hard to come up with "great" 6th grade level zingers like a couple schoolgirls.

By the way, our A.D. is doing his due diligence should the time come to make a move....and it is.

I hope things don't come apart to the point we would have to finish the season with an interim coach but barring a pleasant surprise from Coach Jones and this team I think the writing is on the wall for this being his last season at UND.

However a top 4 finish would not be good enough for the haters their mind is made up. 

[Cratter]

UND needs to concentrate on its (sports) core competencies. 

I knew that UND education would come in handy one of these days. 

Edited December 2, 2015 by Cratter