Title Nine: Our Prong is Bigger Than Your Prong

[Hammersmith]

There's only one problem with your theory: WIH is not as elite as you claim. If it is elite, so is UND WBB. Their total expenses are within $150k of each other ($1.3M vs $1.17M).

But that's a terrible way to look at it, and one I think that would get you into real Title IX problems. It's way more than just a dollar amount on a form.

If you take away women's hockey, let's look at what the men's hockey team would get that would have to be matched. Don't they have their own weight room in the REA with specialized equipment? You'd have to build a separate weight room for whatever women's team you elevate. MIH has it's own facility that they don't have to share with anyone else? Gotta give one to the corresponding women's team.

Seriously, check out the link below and first read the section on tiered programs on pages 52-53 of the manual(pg. 31 of the pdf). Then go back and read the 'V. Treatment' section from pages 25-53(16-30). It's okay to mostly focus on the key questions sections. While reading those sections, keep asking yourself what does men's hockey currently get that would have to be replicated in another women's program if women's hockey were to be cut? It becomes quickly clear that keeping women's hockey solves a host of potential problems. Nothing else comes close.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/p-4268-equity-and-title-ix-in-intercollegiate-athletics-a-practical-guide-for-colleges-and-universities-2012.aspx

[SiouxVolley]

But that's a terrible way to look at it, and one I think that would get you into real Title IX problems. It's way more than just a dollar amount on a form.If you take away women's hockey, let's look at what the men's hockey team would get that would have to be matched. Don't they have their own weight room in the REA with specialized equipment? You'd have to build a separate weight room for whatever women's team you elevate. MIH has it's own facility that they don't have to share with anyone else? Gotta give one to the corresponding women's team.Seriously, check out the link below and first read the section on tiered programs on pages 52-53 of the manual(pg. 31 of the pdf). Then go back and read the 'V. Treatment' section from pages 25-53(16-30). It's okay to mostly focus on the key questions sections. While reading those sections, keep asking yourself what does men's hockey currently get that would have to be replicated in another women's program if women's hockey were to be cut? It becomes quickly clear that keeping women's hockey solves a host of potential problems. Nothing else comes close.http://www.ncaapublications.com/p-4268-equity-and-title-ix-in-intercollegiate-athletics-a-practical-guide-for-colleges-and-universities-2012.aspx

Actually agree with you, as women's hockey is critical for Title IX. That why Idalski's salary is higher than even most men's coaches.

What is the equivalent women's sport for NDSU pedestal sport of football? No one women's sport shares Fargodome Taj Majal facilities that were built just for football: meeting rooms etc. How does NDSU women's sports meet Tier I, II, and III, if football is tier I, basketball tier II, and the rest of men's sports tier III. By the logic you've layer out, all NDSU women's are Tier III. Maybe Womens basketball could be argued as a Tier II program, but it doesn't near the emphasis that the men's program does.

How does NDSU correct its serious Title IX issues, in both not having a Tier I Womens program and being grievously off balance in proportionality. Its practically a miracle the Obama's Dept of Education hasn't called NDSU on the carpet regarding Title IX.

[UNDvince97-01]

Getting into the top 3rd of the Big Sty seems pretty elusive for GFU.   Maybe it's the jet lag?

GFU? 

You do know we aren't in the Summit League, right?

[jdub27]

Actually agree with you, as women's hockey is critical for Title IX. That why Idalski's salary is higher than even most men's coaches.

What is the equivalent women's sport for NDSU pedestal sport of football? No one women's sport shares Fargodome Taj Majal facilities that were built just for football: meeting rooms etc. How does NDSU women's sports meet Tier I, II, and III, if football is tier I, basketball tier II, and the rest of men's sports tier III. By the logic you've layer out, all NDSU women's are Tier III. Maybe Womens basketball could be argued as a Tier II program, but it doesn't near the emphasis that the men's program does.

How does NDSU correct its serious Title IX issues, in both not having a Tier I Womens program and being grievously off balance in proportionality. Its practically a miracle the Obama's Dept of Education hasn't called NDSU on the carpet regarding Title IX.

They use a different prong of compliance.

NDSU uses surveys to show that females on campus aren't interested in more opportunities. Proportionality and equal "tiered" treatment is disregarded because of it. No other way to remain "compliant" while offering over 2 male student athletes opportunists for every one female.

[The Sicatoka]

They use a different prong of compliance.

NDSU uses surveys to show that females on campus aren't interested in more opportunities. Proportionality and equal "tiered" treatment is disregarded because of it. No other way to remain "compliant" while offering over 2 male student athletes opportunists for every one female.

I don't see where the tiering approach applies based on which prong you use. (I admit I just quickly glanced. Third period of ANA@CHI Game 3 is starting.)

[The Sicatoka]

Women's basketball shares facility with men.

Softball and volleyball each have their own place to play.

Probably an overly simplistic view though.

But that doesn't answer the football question Volley asked: What compensates for the tier one football treatment at NDSU?

And then there's wresting (another mens program balanced by ... ?).

Johnboy: Did you know there are 288 mens and just 129 womens athletes at NDSU?

[SiouxVolley]

But that doesn't answer the football question Volley asked: What compensates for the tier one football treatment at NDSU?

And then there's wresting (another mens program balanced by ... ?).

Johnboy: Did you know there are 288 mens and just 129 womens athletes at NDSU?

NDSU views "interests and aptitudes" as not requiring Tiers to be in compliance with Title IX. Yet NDSU posters apply a different standards to us than to them, just like their administrators have done for years (I.e. matching funds from ND, NDSU abused their privileges so the rules were changed my explicitly forbidden donations to athletic scholarships from being matched.) NDSU always games systems, never obeying the the requirements like everyone else.

[geaux_sioux]

NDSU views "interests and aptitudes" as not requiring Tiers to be in compliance with Title IX. Yet NDSU posters apply a different standards to us than to them, just like their administrators have done for years (I.e. matching funds from ND, NDSU abused their privileges so the rules were changed my explicitly forbidden donations to athletic scholarships from being matched.) NDSU always games systems, never obeying the the requirements like everyone else.

I wish our admin had balls like theirs.

[SiouxVolley]

I wish our admin had balls like theirs.

It will be interesting when NDSU is forced to have a ratio of 54/46 M\F, like other institutions have strict proportional representation. It would require over 100 additional female athletes: 288 male / 245 female, which is nearly double the women they have now. Any other admin in the US wouldn't put up with that kind of crap. No wonder football could get up to speed so quick.

[jdub27]

GFU? 

You do know we aren't in the Summit League, right?

 

IALTO    

[JohnboyND7]

But that doesn't answer the football question Volley asked: What compensates for the tier one football treatment at NDSU?

And then there's wresting (another mens program balanced by ... ?).

Johnboy: Did you know there are 288 mens and just 129 womens athletes at NDSU?

Wouldn't volleyball or softball be able to say they are the big female sports if necessary?

Wrestling doesn't have it's own facility. Don't know that it gets big time funding. Don't see a big problem there.

Of those 288, how many full scholarships does it add up to? Of the ladies, how many does it add up to?

Don't see a problem with how NDSU goes about things. Quite a few girls sports on campus.

What I do see, is some folks who are bitter with UND's inability to compete at some of their sports for the time being... And rather than fix the problem, would prefer to see NDSU in a similar predicament.

[The Sicatoka]

"Girls" sports? OK ...

Last time I looked athletic aid at NDSU was skewed more than 60/40 toward the men. Participation is 68/32 (288/129) toward men. But the general population at NDSU is 54/46 men.

It's a good thing NDSU uses prong three because they are nowhere near compliance under prong one.

[geaux_sioux]

Have at it

[darell1976]

It was noted in the other thread that a suggestion on sports to cut was swimming and diving...is this sport a money sucking sport? I don't follow s/d so I wouldn't know about revenue or expenditures on pool use and travel.

[UNDBIZ]

One of the large costs of S&D is the actual pool, and it's not going anywhere.

[Hawkster]

Why is this thread in the football forum?    Title nine applies to all sports, not just football.   

[geaux_sioux]

Why is this thread in the football forum? Title nine applies to all sports, not just football.

It's applies to football more than any sport because of the budget implications.

[Hawkster]

It's applies to football more than any sport because of the budget implications.

Same could probably be said about hockey, particularly as it applies massively to women's hockey

[The Sicatoka]

Moderator's note:

 

Most of this was pulled out of a different thread and put here. If it doesn't really flow, that's why. 

 

And, I moved this thread out of Football to a more appropriate category. 

[UND Fan]

Thanks for moving this, Sic!

[SiouxVolley]

After all the braggards from bisonville exclaiming that NDSU will offer cost of attendance for this coming season, turns out they won't make a decision until 2016-17. What gives? Title IX problems?

http://www.inforum.com/sports/3766157-many-other-fcs-schools-ndsu-waiting-play-its-hand-providing-student-athletes-cost

[JohnboyND7]

After all the braggards from bisonville exclaiming that NDSU will offer cost of attendance for this coming season, turns out they won't make a decision until 2016-17. What gives? Title IX problems?

http://www.inforum.com/sports/3766157-many-other-fcs-schools-ndsu-waiting-play-its-hand-providing-student-athletes-cost

In their defense, I haven't seen anyone say NDSU is offering it immediately.

I do think some folks have really jumped the gun on what they thought NDSU would/would not do.

[Bison Dan]

After all the braggards from bisonville exclaiming that NDSU will offer cost of attendance for this coming season, turns out they won't make a decision until 2016-17. What gives? Title IX problems?

http://www.inforum.com/sports/3766157-many-other-fcs-schools-ndsu-waiting-play-its-hand-providing-student-athletes-cost

Right on - just tell Faison not to worry about anything but Hockey or what the BSC does. 

[SiouxVolley]

In their defense, I haven't seen anyone say NDSU is offering it immediately.

I do think some folks have really jumped the gun on what they thought NDSU would/would not do.

Larsen has to wait for any FCS to FBS rules changes. He doesn't want to offer kids FCOA and then have to yank it from them so NDSU can go FBS. FBS will greatly increase dollars needed and women sports offered (at least two women sports). If it's pay to play, as FBS may have a initial fee, it would be daunting.

[homer]

Right on - just tell Faison not to worry about anything but Hockey or what the BSC does.

UND is offering FCOA in the sport it needs to I order to stay competitive at the level of the conference.

FU and Larsen need to be thinking about wrestling and what the other schools in the BIg12 are going to do. Are FU fans going to accept any sport other than wrestling and a women's sport getting $$$ for this? We all know the answer except you. Also Dan, schools with athletic budgets much bigger than UND and FU are going to have a hard time paying for this in all sports. To think schools shouldn't be prioritizing sports is a funny. Tell me the plan for how FU covers this for all sports. I'll hang up and listen.