NHL 2013

[farce poobah]

I like watching games in St Louis. The fans keep chanting Let's Go Sioux.

Other than the top six guys, there is enormous skill gap between St Louis and Minnesota. Blues are for real.

[Blackheart]

Bruins with a nice OT win last night over Slew-foot Sid and the Penguins. Looks like Crosby tied the game at the end of regulation only to lose on a nice move by Bruins defenseman Krug in OT. Goon posted the gwg in his blog. Go Bruins!

[Uncle_Rico]

Good for the Bruins. After losing each and every one of their last seven regular season games vs. Pittsburgh they were due to win one eventually. Like the old saying goes, even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.

I'll give it to Boston for winning the four most important ones last year. In a row...

[Goon]

I said they still have those kind of plays and yet they don't fight about it. What I am suggesting is that European players do not consider that style of play to be dirty or cheap, they just consider it to be part of the game. They just deal with it and accept that sometimes in the heat of the battle these things happen. Canadian and US born players, on the other hand, often times react like thin-skinned little crybabies. Therefore, they want to fight about it. European players have a much better attitude about it in my opinion.

The point I am making in bringing all of this up is that you're going to see those kind of plays both in leagues that allow fighting as well as leagues that do not allow fighting, which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is complete and total false propaganda to say fighting acts as a deterrent to that style of play. If in fact fighting deterred that style of play, we would not see that style of play in the NHL. But we do see that style of play in the NHL, therefore I win this argument. Case closed, I have no further questions.

Last time I checked there some huge brawls in the KHL and Russia is in Europe.

[Goon]

Good for the Bruins. After losing each and every one of their last seven regular season games vs. Pittsburgh they were due to win one eventually. Like the old saying goes, even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.

Ahem, if IRC the Bruins won last night so that five out of the last six games against Cindy and the Pens. Game winner by Tory Krug.

[MafiaMan]

Last time I checked there some huge brawls in the KHL and Russia is in Europe.

And the last time a guy died on the ice courtesy of a cheap shot that supposedly doesn't happen in Europe...was in Europe.

[MafiaMan]

The Dallas Fighting Sioux won tonight in Anaheim...

[Snake]

I said they still have those kind of plays and yet they don't fight about it. What I am suggesting is that European players do not consider that style of play to be dirty or cheap, they just consider it to be part of the game. They just deal with it and accept that sometimes in the heat of the battle these things happen. Canadian and US born players, on the other hand, often times react like thin-skinned little crybabies. Therefore, they want to fight about it. European players have a much better attitude about it in my opinion.

The point I am making in bringing all of this up is that you're going to see those kind of plays both in leagues that allow fighting as well as leagues that do not allow fighting, which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is complete and total false propaganda to say fighting acts as a deterrent to that style of play. If in fact fighting deterred that style of play, we would not see that style of play in the NHL. But we do see that style of play in the NHL, therefore I win this argument. Case closed, I have no further questions.

Dave - if you want to pat yourself on the back for winning a debate that wasn't even being had, go right ahead.

My stance on fighting is this:

Fighting has its place in the game as a reaction to someone taking liberties with defenseless players who are simply trying to play within the "context of the game" as you like to put it. The key word here is reaction. I don't believe it is as strong of a deterrent to cheap play as officiating. If the officials on the ice would call the game the way it is supposed to be called, and if the guy in charge of supplemental discipline (or the union) would have the cajones to fine and/or suspend some of these repeat (and even first-time) offenders more severely than is already happening, I think the game would clean up immensely. I also disagree with fighting as a way to "spark" your team if you're getting your asses handed to you on the scoreboard. Again, instigator rules and such are supposed to help curb that crap. I hate watching blowouts turn ugly, just for the sake of being ugly.

As to your debate that you're supposedly having...

You have no understanding of the cause/effect relationship outlined by Redneksioux. Cheap shots are the cause, fights are the effect. Eliminating cheap shots would eliminate fighting, not the other way around as you're suggesting. In fact, the European league example you cite would serve to prove the point everyone else is making - that a league without fighting still has players that take runs at defenseless opponents.

I don't believe I stated that fighting is to be used as the major deterrent for cheap-shots. I stated that it is a reaction to the low-lifers that use the "context" of the game to make disgusting, intent-to-injure type plays on guys that are just trying to play the game. You cited European hockey and it's lack of fighting as some sort of proof that fighting doesn't belong in the game because they still have cheap-shots taking place. Again, the cause-effect relationship isn't that fighting eliminates (or deters) cheap shots. The point I'm trying to make is cheap shots result in fighting. If you properly enforce and clean-up the cheap plays - the plays you don't seem too upset about because they happen while the puck is in play - you would have much, much less fighting. If I were commissioner, I wouldn't be focusing on fighting, so much as the garbage that leads to fighting.

I wonder how the first fight ever happened in hockey. Now, I wasn't there so I can't know for sure, but I bet it wasn't just because a couple guys decided to go for fun. I'm guessing there was probably some type of "incident" that led up to it. See what I'm saying? Sure, the "incidents" still happen in today's game despite fighting being allowed...but what came first...the incident or the fight? Clean up the crap within the "context of the game" and I bet fighting wanes considerably.

I also find it odd that you somehow give a pass to players who supposedly use the "context of the game" to take runs at other players who are simply trying to move the puck and score. How is a player that blindsides a puck-carrier high, or cross-checks someone into the boards from behind any less disgusting in your mind than two men who agree to go toe-to-toe, each man knowing full well what could be coming his way? I guess guys have free run as long as the puck is in play, right? But, God forbid the gloves come off after the whistle...

[Ray77]

http://bleacherrepor...ign=programming

Good article for some debate. However, any list of the top 50 players in the league that has Kyle Turris on it and leaves off Patrice Bergeron I give no credence to.

[scpa0305]

Good article for some debate. However, any list of the top 50 players in the league that has Kyle Turris on it and leaves off Patrice Bergeron I give no credence to.

Haha no doubt. FYI, Bleacher Report is a joke. PB is top 10....and I stand by that.

[Snake]

Good article for some debate. However, any list of the top 50 players in the league that has Kyle Turris on it and leaves off Patrice Bergeron I give no credence to.

Yep, I had to go through it twice just to make sure I hadn't accidentally overlooked Bergeron.

[farce poobah]

Brad Malone with his first point of the season tonight. Nice to see him getting some ice time in the Show.

[scpa0305]

Please look at the one sentence out of your post that I put in italicized bold print and underlined. That sentence (generally speaking) is only true in North America. Not so much in Europe, which is exactly what I have been trying to open people's eyes to for the last page or two of this thread. I don't know the exact reason why that is so, but if I were to take a guess I would say there's a good chance it has to do with the general culture towards the game and attitudes that players are exposed to while they are kids growing up around the game. In my opinion the European style of hockey exhibits a better attitude towards understanding that sometimes these things happen in the heat of battle and they tend to not take it personally. If you're on the receiving end of a big hit you merely keep your composure and continue on playing the game, the way it should be. There is no need to go into meltdown mode and instigate a fight. That does not accomplish anything. Nobody is going out there making these kind of plays with the goal of injuring somebody, the goal is to break up a scoring chance or ride the player off the puck or break up a pass attempt... anything to make a play within the context of the hockey game. Sometimes those plays are made recklessly without regard for safety, I will concede that much, but I do not for one minute buy this "intent to injure" garbage that whiny fans like to throw around. The only intent to injure that I have ever witnessed in hockey is a bare-knucked fist to the face. The other stuff that often leads to fights, while it can result in injuries... injury is not the primary goal of the player dishing out those hits, it is merely the unintended consequence. Hockey is a contact sport that moves at a very high speed, sometimes these things happen. People need to understand this.

There are fights in Europe.

[scpa0305]

Setting aside my personal bias, I can admit that Bergeron deserves to be on the list. Probably even in the top 20, but top 10 is a bit of a reach in my opinion. They also excluded Letang and Kunitz, which is just as ridiculous if not more so.

FWIW, I think Suter is way too high at #2.

PB is a top ten overall player take it to the bank. Don't simply look at his offensive numbers.

[choyt3]

PB is a top ten overall player take it to the bank. Don't simply look at his offensive numbers.

But aren't recruits evaluated and their predicted impact on college hockey based on their junior stats only?

[scpa0305]

But aren't recruits evaluated and their predicted impact on college hockey based on their junior stats only?

Go look at his junior numbers. Also his offensive numbers in the nhl are great just not elite. His face off % , plus minus, block shots and headsy play get him to top ten. Now go look at those stats for the recruits I was speaking about, they are absolutely garbage. Nice try bud.

[scpa0305]

If I could add any one player to the Penguins roster, I can think of 10 guys I would choose over Bergeron...

Toews, Stamkos, Tavares, Kessel, Datsyuk, Ovechkin, Kopitar, Getzlaf, Kane, and both Sedins.

But that is subjective and most certainly debatable, and I respect your right to an opinion that is different than that of my own.

I would take PB over both sedins (unless I could take them in a package), he's much better than kopitar, I would take him over kessel (easy), maybe Getz and maybe Tavares. Him and toews are equal to me. Toews plays with better linemates. But PB is more used as a shut down player, that also puts in big goals( check out his plus minus over the past few years). Look at his playoff numbers. Guys great, not Crosby, Malkin or stamkos good though. Also, I hate the bruins I simply respect the type if player Bergeron is.

[choyt3]

Go look at his junior numbers. Also his offensive numbers in the nhl are great just not elite. His face off % , plus minus, block shots and headsy play get him to top ten. Now go look at those stats for the recruits I was speaking about, they are absolutely garbage. Nice try bud.

So you're saying Bergeron needs to be evaluated based on the whole package, not just goals and assists, which is the method you choose to base your evaluations of junior players you seldom have seen play. I'm surprised you didn't add in a line about playing hockey in the summer time with guys that have skated with Bergeron. Nice try, bud.

[scpa0305]

So you're saying Bergeron needs to be evaluated based on the whole package, not just goals and assists, which is the method you choose to base your evaluations of junior players you seldom have seen play. I'm surprised you didn't add in a line about playing hockey in the summer time with guys that have skated with Bergeron. Nice try, bud.

I don't just look at goals and assists when looking at some of our recruits. I look at everything I can. Also, I never once said I'm pissed they're recruits I simply brought up their numbers are sub par. Which they are, I have never witnessed voltin, Rowe or Wilkie play....I have watched Bergeron play....at a very high level. Sorry for the rambling I'm typing from my phone.

Also, I'm not the guy to drop lines unless it's true. Let's get that straight. You seem like a good guy, ha.

[Goon]

When getting beat badly in a debate, change the subject. Ah, that is so typical of Goon.

Back on topic... if fighting was in fact that deterrent that you want to believe it is, the kind of plays that you consider to be cheap shots would not happen in the NHL. I have painted your argument tightly into a corner. There is no possible way for you to weasel your way out of it now. Give it up.

You're giving yourself credit where's it's not deserved. You said there's no fighting in Europe and I said, that KHL has full out brawls. You lose.

[Goon]

Good article for some debate. However, any list of the top 50 players in the league that has Kyle Turris on it and leaves off Patrice Bergeron I give no credence to.

Good point, I don't consider Bleacher Report to be a very credible source.

[Goon]

While they may in fact have a brawl on rare occasions few and far between, their players tend to not have that stupid vigilante "drop the gloves" mentality that exists in North America. I didn't say that there has never been a single fight in European hockey, I said that generally speaking it is not a big part of their hockey culture over there. So, not, I do not lose. YOU lose.

So says you... Whatever makes you feel good.

[MafiaMan]

Nice to see Ottawa welcom home Daniel Afredsson last night...nice to see fans appreciate his years of dedication to the Senators. As an added bonus, I knew Goon would want to see the video link to the tribute the Ottawa organization paid to the former captain and face of the Senators franchise...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nhl/wings/2013/12/01/daniel-alfredsson-ottawa-senators-detroit-red-wings/3799759/

[Ray77]

I hope this doesn't end up getting too ugly. Although, I'm not sure how that can be avoided. It's almost a certainty, isn't it?

Everything You Need to Know About the NHL Concussion Lawsuit

[MafiaMan]

Likewise.

Groan...NHL 2013 thread...more of the same.

Zetterberg out with herniated disc. Maybe Yzerman can lace 'em up for a few weeks while he's out.