Football Champs

[Bison06]

So are you basing your opinion on what your eyes saw or UND's record? I think Tennessee Tech, Stoney Brook, Harvard and Jackson St.'s record were vastly inflated due to the strength of their conferences. Each of those conferences has 5-6 poor teams in them. A team with weaknesses could still win 5-6 games in those conferences.

As I said, I watched every playoff team and I saw 3-4 UND games. The level of play UND put on the field was not up to par IMO. If I wasn't a Bison fan you'd probably concede that fact. Outside of SUU which is debatable, which of UND's wins last year was impressive?

Are you sure you want to put stoney brook in this conversation? Maybe you didn't see them give SHSU the best game they had seen all year up to that point.

[Herd]

Excellent post. You hit it right on the button. I see Bison fans are continuing to right in how mad they were UND was ranked. It really doesn't matter. This year is what matters.

Why did NDSU fans care? NDSU was fighting for playoff seeding, and fell 3 spots on a bye week. I think it's pretty obvious why NDSU fans cared. We were trying to get into a position of being home for the playoffs, period, end of story. If NDSU poll votes were being confused with any school, it would have been the same story. As always, you want to make this about UND, but the story in Fargo was about how a mixup might impact NDSU playoff seeding. Certainly you can understand this concern.

[Siouxperfan7]

Why did NDSU fans care? NDSU was fighting for playoff seeding, and fell 3 spots on a bye week. I think it's pretty obvious why NDSU fans cared. We were trying to get into a position of being home for the playoffs, period, end of story. If NDSU poll votes were being confused with any school, it would have been the same story. As always, you want to make this about UND, but the story in Fargo was about how a mixup might impact NDSU playoff seeding. Certainly you can understand this concern.

It all worked out for NDSU, so I think that now that it is 5 monhts after the end of the season and about 8 months since it happened, we all need to jsut let it go!!!

[jodcon]

Why did NDSU fans care? NDSU was fighting for playoff seeding, and fell 3 spots on a bye week. I think it's pretty obvious why NDSU fans cared. We were trying to get into a position of being home for the playoffs, period, end of story. If NDSU poll votes were being confused with any school, it would have been the same story. As always, you want to make this about UND, but the story in Fargo was about how a mixup might impact NDSU playoff seeding. Certainly you can understand this concern.

I think there's 2 different issues going on here, the first one is whether UND got some of NDSU's votes during their bye week...I think that happened.

The second one is whether or not UND deserved to be in the top 25 at the end of the year because they were still getting some of NDSU's votes...I don't think that happened.

By the end of the year the voters knew who NDSU was, they were on a short list of potential FCS champions and were ranked accordingly along with some traditional powers, UND got into the top 25 because...whether you think their schedule was easier than most or not...they finished 8-3 and won their conference. That's probably going to get you into the top 25 in any year. Were they better than most of the 16-25 teams? That's something we'll never know, and neither will the people who vote, they're not going to take the time to analyze things like common opponents and team stats for the last 10 teams in the poll, they'll go more by record and recent performance.

In the end, I think the 2 teams were ranked about where they should have been considering their circumstances.

[bisonboone11]

I think there's 2 different issues going on here, the first one is whether UND got some of NDSU's votes during their bye week...I think that happened.

The second one is whether or not UND deserved to be in the top 25 at the end of the year because they were still getting some of NDSU's votes...I don't think that happened.

By the end of the year the voters knew who NDSU was, they were on a short list of potential FCS champions and were ranked accordingly along with some traditional powers, UND got into the top 25 because...whether you think their schedule was easier than most or not...they finished 8-3 and won their conference. That's probably going to get you into the top 25 in any year. Were they better than most of the 16-25 teams? That's something we'll never know, and neither will the people who vote, they're not going to take the time to analyze things like common opponents and team stats for the last 10 teams in the poll, they'll go more by record and recent performance.

In the end, I think the 2 teams were ranked about where they should have been considering their circumstances.

UND didn't get into the top 25 because they finished 8-3. I believe they got into the top 25 when they were 1-2, and got in due to people confusing them with NDSU. They stayed in the top 25 because they went 8-3 and won their conference. Like I said before, I could care less where UND was ranked. I just wanted to correct your mistake.

I do appreciate the fact that at least one UND fan can admit there was a mistake in the polls though. Again, it's really irrelevant, but it's nice to see a little bit of common sense being used.

[Smoggy]

UND didn't get into the top 25 because they finished 8-3. I believe they got into the top 25 when they were 1-2, and got in due to people confusing them with NDSU. They stayed in the top 25 because they went 8-3 and won their conference. Like I said before, I could care less where UND was ranked. I just wanted to correct your mistake.

I'm not going to deny that some votes were messed up, but why weren't they the first couple weeks? UND gave Fresno St. a real scare and some of those votes were legit. I could care less. I just wanted to correct your mistake.

In all honesty if any mistake were to occur shouldn't it have gone the other way???

[jodcon]

UND didn't get into the top 25 because they finished 8-3. I believe they got into the top 25 when they were 1-2, and got in due to people confusing them with NDSU. They stayed in the top 25 because they went 8-3 and won their conference. Like I said before, I could care less where UND was ranked. I just wanted to correct your mistake.

I do appreciate the fact that at least one UND fan can admit there was a mistake in the polls though. Again, it's really irrelevant, but it's nice to see a little bit of common sense being used.

I said as much the first two lines, the line you quoted started "By the end of the year"...that's what I was talking about.

[bisonboone11]

I'm not going to deny that some votes were messed up, but why weren't they the first couple weeks? UND gave Fresno St. a real scare and some of those votes were legit. I could care less. I just wanted to correct your mistake.

In all honesty if any mistake were to occur shouldn't it have gone the other way???

What was my mistake?

[UNDColorado]

UND didn't get into the top 25 because they finished 8-3. I believe they got into the top 25 when they were 1-2, and got in due to people confusing them with NDSU. They stayed in the top 25 because they went 8-3 and won their conference. Like I said before, I could care less where UND was ranked. I just wanted to correct your mistake.

I do appreciate the fact that at least one UND fan can admit there was a mistake in the polls though. Again, it's really irrelevant, but it's nice to see a little bit of common sense being used.

Perfect example of how these trolls can't let anything go. Jodcon did a great job of analyzing the situation without his fan hat on, but you tools just have to throw in your anti UND banter. He was spot on BTW.

[bisonboone11]

Perfect example of how these trolls can't let anything go. Jodcon did a great job of analyzing the situation without his fan hat on, but you tools just have to throw in your anti UND banter. He was spot on BTW.

I was simply clarifying. The statement that was made appeared to contradict itself. I'm not saying UND didn't deserve to be ranked by the end of the season. I was simply saying that when they got into the top 25, they did not get in because of their record at that time. They got in, likely due to a mix up between voters. I'm sorry if you can't handle a Bison fan coming in and correcting a statement that appeared to be incorrect. I will refrain from doing so in the future, and let the UND fans deceive the others reading that do not know the background of the situation. He did have a very good analysis of the situation, and I do appreciate the fact that he accepts there was a mistake in the polls.

[homer]

I was simply clarifying. The statement that was made appeared to contradict itself. I'm not saying UND didn't deserve to be ranked by the end of the season. I was simply saying that when they got into the top 25, they did not get in because of their record at that time. They got in, likely due to a mix up between voters. I'm sorry if you can't handle a Bison fan coming in and correcting a statement that appeared to be incorrect. I will refrain from doing so in the future, and let the UND fans deceive the others reading that do not know the background of the situation. He did have a very good analysis of the situation, and I do appreciate the fact that he accepts there was a mistake in the polls.

Was it likely thats why they got in or was that why they got in? I've heard nothing that says otherwise. Who's trying to deceive others?

[WeAreNorthDakota]

I don't see how it makes any sense whatsoever that the two schools were confused, considering how the polls are compiled. Each coach ranks his top 25 teams. The published poll is a ranking of the average rank on those polls filled out by coaches. I think it's pretty commonly accepted that most coaches simply move teams up and down that top 25 list based mostly on the last week's results. At the start of the season, I can't imagine any ballots did not have NDSU ranked at least somewhere on the poll. And as far as I know, UND was not present on any ballots at the beginning of the season.

So here is the logic Bison fans are using. In the preseason poll, no coach confused NDSU and UND because UND did not receive any votes. After the first week, where NDSU beats Lafayette handily and UND beats Drake, still no confusion as UND does not yet have any votes. After the second week, where NDSU beats St Francis handily and UND loses to Idaho, still no confusion as UND does not yet have any votes. If I'm wrong so far, please correct me. Its been a few months and my memory of the situation likely isn't perfect.

Now week 3 happens. NDSU is idle. UND loses to Fresno St. The polls now have UND cracking the top 25 while NDSU loses a few points. Kolpack claims mistaken votes as the culprit, but think about how the polls are compiled. Remember that coaches usually move teams up and down based on the previous week's results. So in order for mistaken ballots to occur, coaches who had only NDSU on their list for the first 3 polls, suddenly take NDSU off their list and replace them with UND. I don't see how a coach makes that mistake. I especially don't see how a significant enough number of coaches make the mistake as to cause NDSU to drop and UND to be ranked.

The only way a case of mistaken identity would be plausible, in my opinion, is if the teams are chosen from a list on a computer where North Dakota and North Dakota State are the names used and are therefore right on top of each other on a list of teams. If that is the case, however, how do you explain the fact that not a single coach made the mistake of clicking on the wrong name for 3 consecutive weeks and then suddenly a significant number accidentally click on the wrong name. I can't see how that makes sense, especially because most coaches are likely looking at a poll from the week before and are seeing North Dakota State and not seeing North Dakota.

[darell1976]

I don't see how it makes any sense whatsoever that the two schools were confused, considering how the polls are compiled. Each coach ranks his top 25 teams. The published poll is a ranking of the average rank on those polls filled out by coaches. I think it's pretty commonly accepted that most coaches simply move teams up and down that top 25 list based mostly on the last week's results. At the start of the season, I can't imagine any ballots did not have NDSU ranked at least somewhere on the poll. And as far as I know, UND was not present on any ballots at the beginning of the season.

So here is the logic Bison fans are using. In the preseason poll, no coach confused NDSU and UND because UND did not receive any votes. After the first week, where NDSU beats Lafayette handily and UND beats Drake, still no confusion as UND does not yet have any votes. After the second week, where NDSU beats St Francis handily and UND loses to Idaho, still no confusion as UND does not yet have any votes. If I'm wrong so far, please correct me. Its been a few months and my memory of the situation likely isn't perfect.

Now week 3 happens. NDSU is idle. UND loses to Fresno St. The polls now have UND cracking the top 25 while NDSU loses a few points. Kolpack claims mistaken votes as the culprit, but think about how the polls are compiled. Remember that coaches usually move teams up and down based on the previous week's results. So in order for mistaken ballots to occur, coaches who had only NDSU on their list for the first 3 polls, suddenly take NDSU off their list and replace them with UND. I don't see how a coach makes that mistake. I especially don't see how a significant enough number of coaches make the mistake as to cause NDSU to drop and UND to be ranked.

The only way a case of mistaken identity would be plausible, in my opinion, is if the teams are chosen from a list on a computer where North Dakota and North Dakota State are the names used and are therefore right on top of each other on a list of teams. If that is the case, however, how do you explain the fact that not a single coach made the mistake of clicking on the wrong name for 3 consecutive weeks and then suddenly a significant number accidentally click on the wrong name. I can't see how that makes sense, especially because most coaches are likely looking at a poll from the week before and are seeing North Dakota State and not seeing North Dakota.

You are wrong because you are not using Bison logic....NDSU went down because its a whole UND conspiracy. UND personally called all the pollsters and told them vote for UND not NDSU. But to be serious...you hit the nail on the head, why did it wait 3 weeks for the confusion to begin and not at the beginning of the season, plus how come the confusion didn't start in 2008 when UND moved up. Amazing it took 3 years for the confusion to start.

[WeAreNorthDakota]

After a little bit of research and some number crunching, it's even more unlikely there was confusion than I originally thought.

NDSU was ranked 6th in the coaches poll after week 2.

NDSU was idle the following week, NDSU fans reasonable expect their ranking to stay at 6th.

UND did not receive a single point, meaning they were left off of every ballot, on the preseason poll and the polls after both weeks 1 and 2.

UND received.136 points and was ranked 21st in the poll after week 3.

There are 28 coaches who submitted ballots for the polls last season.

The same 28 coaches submit a ballot every week of a given season.

A team being ranked 6th on a single coach's ballot gives them 20 points.

So if you attribute UND's ranking to confusion between the schools, you believe that 7 out of the 28 coaches who submit a ballot simply voted UND 6th instead of NDSU. This after all 28 coaches got it right on 3 consecutive ballots leading up to the mistaken ballots.

Bison fans, do you realize how absurd that sounds?

[jodcon]

Looking at it objectively NDSU went from 532 points to 359 points despite being idle, while UND went from 0 points to 136 points despite losing (although to an FBS team and playing well).

The next week NDSU goes back up to 535 points, UND despite winning goes down to 91 points.

I don't know how it happened or why, but you don't lose 173 points on your bye week or go from no points to 136 when you lose and then lose 45 the next week when you win without something being miscounted.

I think UND got a good chunk of the votes legit because they played Fresno State tough, but I have a hard time believing that they didn't get at least some of the votes meant for NDSU in that one week, probably 2 or 3 voters made a mistake which cost NDSU between 40 and 60 points.

I understand what you're saying WeAreNorthDakota, and I'm not taking their side, but I can't believe that every single one of the voters would drop them 6 or 7 spots just because they were on their bye week, that doesn't happen.

[WeAreNorthDakota]

OK so let's say that 3 coaches voted us 6th because they meant to put NDSU there. I guess 3 coaches making a mistake after 3 straight weeks of not making it is a little more plausible. So that would give us 60 points due to a mistaken ballot. That leaves 76 points that we would have had to earn by our own merit on the ballots of the 25 other voters. That means that 25 coaches ranked us 23rd on average.

Could you convince me that a coach or 2 mixed up the schools? I still don't think it's likely, but I guess it could happen. But, even if that was the case, a big majority of the coaches ranked us near the bottom of the top 25.

I did not think we deserved to be ranked after the loss to Fresno, but to argue that we showed up in the poll solely because of confusion with NDSU is 100% false.

[jodcon]

OK so let's say that 3 coaches voted us 6th because they meant to put NDSU there. I guess 3 coaches making a mistake after 3 straight weeks of not making it is a little more plausible. So that would give us 60 points due to a mistaken ballot. That leaves 76 points that we would have had to earn by our own merit on the ballots of the 25 other voters. That means that 25 coaches ranked us 23rd on average.

Could you convince me that a coach or 2 mixed up the schools? I still don't think it's likely, but I guess it could happen. But, even if that was the case, a big majority of the coaches ranked us near the bottom of the top 25.

I did not think we deserved to be ranked after the loss to Fresno, but to argue that we showed up in the poll solely because of confusion with NDSU is 100% false.

The more I think about it, the more I think that's exactly the case, if 3 of the 28 make the mistake and give us around 60 points it explains the vote both ways, NDSU between that and losing a few spots on each ballot by being idle ends up way down, UND by getting the extra 60 points plus the 76 they were actually supposed to get by playing Fresno tough ends up at 136. Realistically if NDSU has those 60 votes they would be about 10th in a bunched up field, which sounds about right in their bye week, and UND losing those 60 points ends up still 24th in the poll.

Now the next week comes along and the 3 voters figure out their mistake, and NDSU shoots back up to where they should be, UND loses those 60 points they shouldn't have had but goes from 76 to 91 points in legit points with a win, which again sounds about right.

I would bet money that 3 of the voters screwed up their vote on the Bison's bye week, it all adds up.

BUT...UND would have made the poll anyway, so it's really a moot point.

[darell1976]

The more I think about it, the more I think that's exactly the case, if 3 of the 28 make the mistake and give us around 60 points it explains the vote both ways, NDSU between that and losing a few spots on each ballot by being idle ends up way down, UND by getting the extra 60 points plus the 76 they were actually supposed to get by playing Fresno tough ends up at 136. Realistically if NDSU has those 60 votes they would be about 10th in a bunched up field, which sounds about right in their bye week, and UND losing those 60 points ends up still 24th in the poll.

Now the next week comes along and the 3 voters figure out their mistake, and NDSU shoots back up to where they should be, UND loses those 60 points they shouldn't have had but goes from 76 to 91 points in legit points with a win, which again sounds about right.

I would bet money that 3 of the voters screwed up their vote on the Bison's bye week, it all adds up.

BUT...UND would have made the poll anyway, so it's really a moot point.

We wouldn't be having this issue if they would post what coaches voted for what teams.

[jodcon]

We wouldn't be having this issue if they would post what coaches voted for what teams.

That is a fact, and this whole thing makes me wonder just how much thought and effort some of these guys put into their votes.

[darell1976]

That is a fact, and this whole thing makes me wonder just how much thought and effort some of these guys put into their votes.

The closer UND gets to NDSU in the polls the more Kolpack is going to blame the voters....no way UND can overtake NDSU's #1 sport.

[UND-FB-FAN]

When NDSU is 2-2 after week 5 with loses to Colorado State and Northern Iowa and UND is either 4-1 or 3-2 with impressive win/s over Cal Poly and/or Portland State, will UND be ranked higher?

[darell1976]

When NDSU is 2-2 after week 4 with loses to Colorado State and Northern Iowa and UND is either 3-1 or 4-0 with impressive win/s over San Diego State and/or Portland State, will UND be ranked higher?

Never because UND can NEVER be ranked higher than NDSU...NEVER!!!!

[JohnboyND7]

When NDSU is 2-2 after week 5 with loses to Colorado State and Northern Iowa and UND is either 4-1 or 3-2 with impressive win/s over Cal Poly and/or Portland State, will UND be ranked higher?

Just like EWU last year, NDSU would get the benefit of the doubt, especially if the games are close. Beating Montana and Montana State or EWU would qualify as impressive. I don't know about Portland State.

[bincitysioux]

My point isn't to diminish what UND accomplished.

Oh, please, don't kid us. That is the point of every post you've made in this thread thus far.

Doesn't it get old saying the exact same thing over and over and over and over again?

I don't know?

Does it?................................................

[Hayduke]

You are wrong because you are not using Bison logic....NDSU went down because its a whole UND conspiracy. UND personally called all the pollsters and told them vote for UND not NDSU. But to be serious...you hit the nail on the head, why did it wait 3 weeks for the confusion to begin and not at the beginning of the season, plus how come the confusion didn't start in 2008 when UND moved up. Amazing it took 3 years for the confusion to start.

Almost right, but not quite.

The whole season was orchestrated by Brian Faison in exactly the fashion necessary (which a small part of it was to manipulate the polls) for the NCAA to ship the buffalo D-1 champeenship banner to Grand Forks.

It was brilliant!