82SiouxGuy Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Let me try to help you understand where I'm coming from. When the NFL's Houston Oilers moved to Tennessee they kept the Oilers name for the first two seasons. Even though they changed their geographical location they were still the Oilers. Same team. When the Tennessee Oilers became the Tennessee Titans they were no longer the same team. The Oilers no longer exist in the NFL. They were never my favorite team, but if they were I would have lost interest not when they moved to Tennessee but when they changed the name from Oilers to Titans. Once you change the name you change the entire identity of your team. A rose by any other name does not smell as sweet. We went over this a long time ago. The difference is that the University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux will become the University of North Dakota Something Else. Notice the first part doesn't change. The location doesn't change. Your comparison doesn't change and it also doesn't make sense. The comparable situation in professional sports would be the Washington Bullets becoming the Wizards. In that case I am pretty sure that very few people felt they changed the team. They just changed the name. Just like UND is trying to do. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craw84 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Let me try to help you understand where I'm coming from. When the NFL's Houston Oilers moved to Tennessee they kept the Oilers name for the first two seasons. Even though they changed their geographical location they were still the Oilers. Same team. When the Tennessee Oilers became the Tennessee Titans they were no longer the same team. The Oilers no longer exist in the NFL. They were never my favorite team, but if they were I would have lost interest not when they moved to Tennessee but when they changed the name from Oilers to Titans. Once you change the name you change the entire identity of your team. A rose by any other name does not smell as sweet. Yup...just like all those UND fans that lost interest when they changed the nickname from "Flickertails" to "Fighting Sioux"? Oh wait... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdub27 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Exactly, which is why I'm willing to take any and all risks to keep the athletic dept. intact with the name and logo. An athletic dept. without the name and logo would be tainted, so if the name and logo have to go then so should the entire athletic dept. Basically I'm saying we should either do it on our own terms or else not do it at all. I'm not a fan of giving into the unreasonable demands of a tyrant. Unreasonable demands? Like shutting down the whole athletics department if you don't get your way? Pot, have you met kettle? You logic has so many holes in it and it is continuously pointed out to you, yet you continue on with it. I'm have no problem with people having their own opinions, but it is tough to take someone serious when their logic is so flawed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 No doubt about it,jodcon, the NCAA tweaked it as they went along. I believe the NCAA decided to add the stipulation of having tribe approval after Florida State people emphasized the Florida Seminole Nation was behind them, even though Oklahoma Seminole people were against it. The NCAA originally intended to force its policy on Florida State, even though it knew the school had the approval of the Seminole tribe in Florida. The NCAA merely assumed that the Oklahoma Seminole tribe was against Florida State's use of the Seminole name. But the tribal council of the Oklahoma Seminoles quickly passed a resolution nearly unanimously giving Florida State permission to use the nickname. It was only after that happened that the NCAA created the namesake approval exemption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benny Baker Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 The NCAA originally intended to force its policy on Florida State, even though it knew the school had the approval of the Seminole tribe in Florida. The NCAA merely assumed that the Oklahoma Seminole tribe was against Florida State's use of the Seminole name. But the tribal council of the Oklahoma Seminoles quickly passed a resolution nearly unanimously giving Florida State permission to use the nickname. It was only after that happened that the NCAA created the namesake approval exemption. We can make distinctions all we went and frame the issue is different ways. But, Florida State only needed approval of the nearest Seminole tribe. Central Michigan only needed the approval of one Chippewa tribe, the closest to the school, despite the presence of three other Chippewa tribes in Michigan. UND is also received approval from the tribe closest to the school, but it is the only institution that the NCAA had required approval from multiple tribes. Everyone is aware that this result is, in part, due to UND commencing litigation and that the others schools did not. Everyone is aware that the NCAA is arbitrary, capricious, and that the organization can do what it wants. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 We can make distinctions all we went and frame the issue is different ways. But, Florida State only needed approval of the nearest Seminole tribe. Central Michigan only needed the approval of one Chippewa tribe, the closest to the school, despite the presence of three other Chippewa tribes in Michigan. UND is also received approval from the tribe closest to the school, but it is the only institution that the NCAA had required approval from multiple tribes. Everyone is aware that this result is, in part, due to UND commencing litigation and that the others schools did not. Everyone is aware that the NCAA is arbitrary, capricious, and that the organization can do what it wants. Yes, but you need to add one caveat to your first paragraph statements: The NCAA asked for affirmative approval from the respective tribes after their Aug 5, 2005 moniker policy announcement. Namesake tribes did that (for FSU, for Utah, for CMU) in 2006. Spirit Lake did not respond and confirm their 2000 action to the NCAA in the timeframe from Aug 5, 2005 to date of the settlement agreement. If Spirit Lake would have even sent a memo from the tribal office to the NCAA in 2006 saying "our 2000 action stands", that would have sufficed and one tribe would've been enough. Two tribes came about as part of the settlement with UND. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 We can make distinctions all we went and frame the issue is different ways. But, Florida State only needed approval of the nearest Seminole tribe. Central Michigan only needed the approval of one Chippewa tribe, the closest to the school, despite the presence of three other Chippewa tribes in Michigan. UND is also received approval from the tribe closest to the school, but it is the only institution that the NCAA had required approval from multiple tribes. Everyone is aware that this result is, in part, due to UND commencing litigation and that the others schools did not. Everyone is aware that the NCAA is arbitrary, capricious, and that the organization can do what it wants. Why didn't anybody question Wayne Stenjeum on this? He agreed to this....why? Did he think UND would get SR to come to their senses or did he see this as an end to the nickname once and for all. Everyone blames the NCAA lets start blaming Stenjeum too. He didn't have to accept this offer by the NCAA with multiple tribes, but yet no one questioned him on it. I heard it was a trade off for more years to get approval...how did that work out? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Yes, but you need to add one caveat to your first paragraph statements: The NCAA asked for affirmative approval from the respective tribes after their Aug 5, 2005 moniker policy announcement. Spirit Lake did not respond and confirm their 2000 action to the NCAA in the timeframe from Aug 5, 2005 to date of the settlement agreement. If Spirit Lake would have even sent a memo from the tribal office to the NCAA in 2006 saying "our 2000 action stands", that would have sufficed and one tribe would've been enough. Funny how they sat around until it was almost too late just to get a tribe-wide vote...now they want to sue 3 years after the deadline of 2010...where were you in 2005 Spirit Lake??? Where was the lawsuit then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 We can make distinctions all we went and frame the issue is different ways. But, Florida State only needed approval of the nearest Seminole tribe. Central Michigan only needed the approval of one Chippewa tribe, the closest to the school, despite the presence of three other Chippewa tribes in Michigan. UND is also received approval from the tribe closest to the school, but it is the only institution that the NCAA had required approval from multiple tribes. I was merely setting the record straight. The Oklahoma Seminoles were not against Florida State's use of the Seminole nickname. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillySioux Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Why didn't anybody question Wayne Stenjeum on this? He agreed to this....why? Did he think UND would get SR to come to their senses or did he see this as an end to the nickname once and for all. Everyone blames the NCAA lets start blaming Stenjeum too. He didn't have to accept this offer by the NCAA with multiple tribes, but yet no one questioned him on it. I heard it was a trade off for more years to get approval...how did that work out? We will never know. All records from the suit were sealed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Are we sure that DaveK isn't using this as an excuse to abandon UND and finally fully embrace his dark side and become a full-time Minnesota fan? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillySioux Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 We can make distinctions all we went and frame the issue is different ways. But, Florida State only needed approval of the nearest Seminole tribe. Central Michigan only needed the approval of one Chippewa tribe, the closest to the school, despite the presence of three other Chippewa tribes in Michigan. UND is also received approval from the tribe closest to the school, but it is the only institution that the NCAA had required approval from multiple tribes. Everyone is aware that this result is, in part, due to UND commencing litigation and that the others schools did not. Everyone is aware that the NCAA is arbitrary, capricious, and that the organization can do what it wants. Good god. The NCAA is full of !@$!. Full of cowards and frauds. THIS DOES NOT REQUIRE DEBATE HERE. The above fact opinion, doesn't change anything about UND's situation. It sounds like the Sons of the Confederacy still bitching about Lincoln's illegal war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Why didn't anybody question Wayne Stenjeum on this? He agreed to this....why? Did he think UND would get SR to come to their senses or did he see this as an end to the nickname once and for all. Everyone blames the NCAA lets start blaming Stenjeum too. He didn't have to accept this offer by the NCAA with multiple tribes, but yet no one questioned him on it. I heard it was a trade off for more years to get approval...how did that work out? I think the two tribes' approval provision was the NC$$'s implicit fee for UND getting into D1 without many of the issues we're starting to see now. Considering the considerable attention paid to the the various inconsistencies and hypocrisy in their policy at that time, the NC$$ needed a "win" to show other member schools, and various groups pushing the "Native Americans as Athletic Symbols" agenda. As has been noted in previous discussions surrounding that litgiation, even if UND won a judgment, the NC$$ could have easily changed its policies to effectively put UND into the same position later. UND was effectively screwed by the NC$$ when it decided it wanted a ticket to D1. Most likely, given the breadth of the policy and the NC$$'s thinking, we would have been screwed the same way even if we had stayed at D2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benny Baker Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Good god. The NCAA is full of !@$!. Full of cowards and frauds. THIS DOES NOT REQUIRE DEBATE HERE. The above fact opinion, doesn't change anything about UND's situation. It sounds like the Sons of the Confederacy still bitching about Lincoln's illegal war. No, you were right the first time. It is a fact that the NCAA is full of !@$!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 We will never know. All records from the suit were sealed. I would love to see what was all in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I think the two tribes' approval provision was the NC$$'s implicit fee for UND getting into D1 without many of the issues we're starting to see now. Considering the considerable attention paid to the the various inconsistencies and hypocrisy in their policy at that time, the NC$$ needed a "win" to show other member schools, and various groups pushing the "Native American as Athletic Symbols" agenda. As has been noted in previous discussions surrounding that litgiation, even if UND won a judgment, the NC$$ could have easily changed its policies to effectively put UND into the same position later. UND was effectively screwed by the NC$$ when it decided it wanted a ticket to D1. Most likely, given the breadth of the policy and the NC$$'s thinking, we would have been screwed the same way even if we had stayed at D2. I agree with the bolded statement. I would add to that the fact that the original deadline for gaining tribal approval had passed. UND would have been under sanctions on the day the trial ended without getting that extension. So if UND had lost the lawsuit, they would have been under sanctions with no chance of ever getting acceptable tribal approval. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Why didn't anybody question Wayne Stenjeum on this? He agreed to this....why? The question is: Why do so many believe that Wayne Stenehjem operated in a vacuum when it came to hammering out the details of the settlement with the NCAA? He represented the State of North Dakota. He consulted with other attorneys inside and outside of state government. Do you honestly believe that the governor and the State Board of Higher Education had no input into the terms of the settlement agreement? Stenehjem represented them. He could not decide all by himself to settle the lawsuit. He could only agree to what his client -- the State of North Dakota -- agreed to. On the day the settlement was announced, Stenehjem said the NCAA's attorneys told him that even if they lost the lawsuit, the organization would simply change its rules to make what its executive committee did legal under the NCAA's bylaws. And that's exactly what the NCAA did. So even if Stenehjem had pressed on and won the lawsuit, it wouldn't have changed the NCAA's policy against the use of American Indian nicknames, mascots and imagery. We would be at the exact same spot we're at today. Stenehjem also said he was confident that based on his experience of working with the tribes, he could negotiate a deal with them that would enable UND to retain the nickname. On this point, he was wrong. Both tribes -- Spirit Lake and Standing Rock -- indicated within days of the settlement that they had no intention of negotiating on the issue. How do you negotiate with empty chairs? Stenehjem miscalculated on the willingness of both tribes to negotiate, but it's not his fault that they chose not to. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homer Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I think UND should be sanctioned & punished if they don't pick up most of the Tab for New Turf http://www.grandfork...icle/id/230031/ Well cross that one off your list. Keep digging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 ten yrs is a long time I can see them worming out of it down the road thus sticking it to GF tax payers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 ten yrs is a long time I can see them worming out of it down the road thus sticking it to GF tax payers It's a contract. They would pay a penalty for getting out of it. And they have already played there for 10 years, so another 10 years would not be a shock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I see they tied it to the name too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 ten yrs is a long time I can see them worming out of it down the road thus sticking it to GF tax payers You sure are mister positivity when it comes to UND. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I used to be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Why didn't anybody question Wayne Stenjeum on this? He agreed to this....why? Did he think UND would get SR to come to their senses or did he see this as an end to the nickname once and for all. ? Good question!!!! I would like to know the answer to that... I also think that PCM is right that stuff doesn't happen in a vaccum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Good question!!!! I would like to know the answer to that... I also think that PCM is right that stuff doesn't happen in a vaccum. He has been asked about it, and he has answered the question. PCM is pretty much spot on. And Wayne has said that the one thing that the NCAA wouldn't negotiate was the need to get approval from 2 tribes. They wouldn't agree to the settlement without that point. I'm sure that the NCAA knew Standing Rock would not change their mind easily. But the other choice was that UND would go on the sanctions list almost as soon as the trial ended, win or lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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