Conference Realignments - Take 2

[darell1976]

For 50+ years UND was "on its own" (compared to the other Dakota schools) with hockey.

It did kinda-OK by itself there (7NCAA National Championship).

I think it'll be just fine off on its own again in the Big Sky.

We won the first one (1959) as an Independent.

[PierreYote]

Very well stated. I don't think many people are able to grasp just how much the balance of power is going to shift from east to west in ND over the next several years.

Star. Please provide a link to those outlandish numbers you posted. Your state is booming and I agree that is wonderful but I have read actual published studies and been on the ground in western Nodak and your numbers are not even close to reality.

[star2city]

You've lost me on something. You cite compelling census data as to why it indeed does make so much sense for UND to differentiate by turning westward, yet you then say the bulk of the recruits will always come from the east, where there is virtually no Big Sky media penetration? What did you have in mind for the western popluation data you cited if not the market for student athletes? Or were you just agreeing with my assertion that the UND marketing department will have a big job on their hands to compete for Big Sky share of voice in the east?

The Summit has a big job on its hands to compete for a share of a voice in the east - meaning Minnesota and Wisconsin. It has none now, so why is the Big Sky any different?

Those weren't census data but projections of growth due to the Bakken. There's a chance ND's population will actually exceed 900,000 or even a million in the next census. But guess what, that is still 1/5th or 1/6th of the populations of Minnesota or Wisconsin. ND just doesn't have enough potential DI recruits to justify one DI school, never mind two.

Montana as a state is just under 1 million, and relies on Washington and California for a lot of its recruits.

Idaho as a state has around 1.5 million, and all three DI schools have to import athletes from the West Coast. Minnesota and Wisconsin are actually underrepresented in DI schools, just like Washington (4 DIs) and California (even with like 23 DI schools) are underrepresented, with only around 1 school for every two million people.

[star2city]

Star. Please provide a link to those outlandish numbers you posted. Your state is booming and I agree that is wonderful but I have read actual published studies and been on the ground in western Nodak and your numbers are not even close to reality.

Those numbers are not now - I never ever stated that.

Those numbers are projections of what the western ND will be like in 2025 or later.

If you are reading Federal Government studies, they are a joke. The Federal Government doesn't even acknowledge Bakken as a major oil find and is underestimating it's potential by a factor of six.

Williston is at at last 20,000 people now, with almost 10,000 in man camps outside the city. Eventually, many of those in man camps will move their families to Williston - that's 30,000 more people right there - with all kinds of support jobs needed. And there are more jobs and expansion just waiting on Williston to catch up on infrastructure and housing. Dickinson is just now entering the phase Williston experienced two years ago.

The Billings newspaper was projecting Williston as a city of as many as 100,000.

Read the history of Midland-Odessa and the Permian Basin.

[RD17]

For 50+ years UND was "on its own" (compared to the other Dakota schools) with hockey.

It did kinda-OK by itself there (7 NCAA National Championship).

I think UND will be just fine on its own again in the Big Sky.

And because of this past success "on its own", UND views the world of college athletics through a completely different paradigm than the other Dakota schools. The Vandrovecs of the world will never understand...

[star2city]

Wouldn't ORU going to the Southland pretty much mean that MVC expansion is definitely not happening anytime soon? I would think that after SLU, ORU would be near the top of the heap of potential MVC candidates. If ORU had any indication that an MVC opportunity may present itself in the next 2-3 years, wouldn't they have stuck it out in the Summit?

That's probably true, but if the MVC needs a school for next season for some reason, ORU has already paid the Summit exit fees ($250,000) and would only have to forfeit the Southland entrance fee ($100,000) to move on (like TCU did with the Big East). ORU always wanted the Southland, but the Southland some some presidents that didn't want private schools. The students and alumni ORU wants to reaches are in Texas, Arkansas, Lousiana, not the Midwest. Institutionally, the Southland is a 10time better fit.

[Matt]

The Summit has a big job on its hands to compete for a share of a voice in the east - meaning Minnesota and Wisconsin. It has none now, so why is the Big Sky any different?

Those weren't census data but projections of growth due to the Bakken. There's a chance ND's population will actually exceed 900,000 or even a million in the next census. But guess what, that is still 1/5th or 1/6th of the populations of Minnesota or Wisconsin. ND just doesn't have enough potential DI recruits to justify one DI school, never mind two.

Montana as a state is just under 1 million, and relies on Washington and California for a lot of its recruits.

Idaho as a state has around 1.5 million, and all three DI schools have to import athletes from the West Coast. Minnesota and Wisconsin are actually underrepresented in DI schools, just like Washington (4 DIs) and California (even with like 23 DI schools) are underrepresented, with only around 1 school for every two million people.

I guess I would say its different because the regional MVFC/Summit teams have had kids from MN/WI up and down their rosters, and have for years. The Big Sky has no brand established east. That's why I'm eager to see the marketing plan rolled out as we go into next year.

[Matt]

Star. Please provide a link to those outlandish numbers you posted. Your state is booming and I agree that is wonderful but I have read actual published studies and been on the ground in western Nodak and your numbers are not even close to reality.

I'm out there at least 2 days per week. Those trends are correct. It's happening and there's no end in sight.

[RD17]

I guess I would say its different because the regional MVFC/Summit teams have had kids from MN/WI up and down their rosters, and have for years. The Big Sky has no brand established east. That's why I'm eager to see the marketing plan rolled out as we go into next year.

I think the part you're missing is that UND is a brand that is already well established to the east. The school is so well known and the recruiting ties so entrenched in MN and WI that recruiting those states won't be an issue regardless of conference affiliation.

[JohnboyND7]

How would you know that? Do you spend time here regularly? You are just trying to push your own agenda and use whatever you can to get there. The Altitude Network is on basic cable out here btw. So "nobody" watching here is more people than the Fargo market ever will be; that is a fact.

Tell me, when you go walking around Colorado, do you see tons of Northern Colorado geer? Do you see license plate references? The Denver market is not some Big Sky-loving area. And the Fargo market has a school that wins. UNC is now 0-8 on the year. This isn't going to get the folks in Denver jacked up for them.

[JohnboyND7]

I think the part you're missing is that UND is a brand that is already well established to the east. The school is so well known and the recruiting ties so entrenched in MN and WI that recruiting those states won't be an issue regardless of conference affiliation.

Recruiting MN and WI becomes an issue when your closest road game is 800 miles away and they don't know anything about those schools.

[The Sicatoka]

Recruiting MN and WI becomes an issue when your closest road game is 800 miles away and they don't know anything about those schools.

Except there will continue to be UND presence in Minnesota and Wisconsin through North Dakota hockey.

Always key is "get the name out there" and hockey will continue to do it for UND to the east.

[RD17]

Recruiting MN and WI becomes an issue when your closest road game is 800 miles away and they don't know anything about those schools.

Incorrect, for the reason I just stated: UND is an established brand in MN and WI.

[RD17]

Except there will continue to be UND presence in Minnesota and Wisconsin through North Dakota hockey.

Always key is "get the name out there" and hockey will continue to do it for UND to the east.

Honestly, UND hockey gets the name out there "everywhere", which gives the school an unique advantage.

Example: I can think of 3-4 different places where I've seen a UND hat or jersey for sale in Kansas City. Never seen any merchandise from any of the other Dakota schools here, despite the fact that there is a Summit school in town and it is within the MVFC footprint.

[FargoBison]

More likely, and probably a great idea already mentioned is for the Dakota 4 to band with the Montanas and build an awesome new western conference.

This idea kind of intrigues me, if you can take the Montana's, the Dakota four and grab some other western schools you could build a solid conference.

[Cratter]

This idea kind of intrigues me, if you can take the Montana's, the Dakota four and grab some other western schools you could build a solid conference.

Tell your AD. Lets get the ball rollin.

The best part is some will kick themselves out (Sac St) when they see the power shift, like ORU.

Idaho would probably even come back with a tighter footprint and closer more like minded institutes in the Dakotas.

[UNDColorado]

Tell me, when you go walking around Colorado, do you see tons of Northern Colorado geer? Do you see license plate references? The Denver market is not some Big Sky-loving area. And the Fargo market has a school that wins. UNC is now 0-8 on the year. This isn't going to get the folks in Denver jacked up for them.

They are bad no doubt. But I do see UNC licence plate things and bumper stickers; not a huge presence in the grand scope but not small either. You really have no idea what you are talking about.

[FargoBison]

Tell your AD. Lets get the ball rollin.

The best part is some will kick themselves out (Sac St) when they see the power shift, like ORU.

Idaho would probably even come back with a tighter footprint and closer more like minded institutes in the Dakotas.

I wonder if the new scholarship rule could spark some change, most Big Sky and Summit schools probably won't be too supportive of the budget increase but for a school like NDSU, Montana, MT State or UND It is something that might be workable.

Right now a pretty solid conference could be built....

Air Force-Denver

NDSU-UND

SDSU-USD

Montana-Montana State

Idaho-Utah State

NMSU-UTSA?

Not sure how football would work though.

[bincitysioux]

Tell me, when you go walking around Colorado, do you see tons of Northern Colorado geer? Do you see license plate references? The Denver market is not some Big Sky-loving area. And the Fargo market has a school that wins. UNC is now 0-8 on the year. This isn't going to get the folks in Denver jacked up for them.

Sort of off topic, but just to defend UNC in general, (there is no defending there football program for the past 7 years) but I think they can evolve to be one of the top Big Sky members overall in due time. They have a great volleyball program, the men's basketball team won the Big Sky last year, I beleive their womens basketball team is picked to go 1st or 2nd this year, they just won the Big Sky soccer title......................

I think because their football program has been so completely inept since moving to DI, that their athletic department as whole kind of flys under the radar. If they can get their football program back to at least being a top half Big Sky team, the opinion of their value to the conference will change greatly IMO.

[dakotadan]

Star. Please provide a link to those outlandish numbers you posted. Your state is booming and I agree that is wonderful but I have read actual published studies and been on the ground in western Nodak and your numbers are not even close to reality.

My hometown high scool on the ND/MT boarder has doubled it's enrollment in under 4 years.

And the town's population has almost tripled. And this is in a community that is a good 50 minute drive to where the real oil boom is going on. .

[dakotadan]

Recruiting MN and WI becomes an issue when your closest road game is 800 miles away and they don't know anything about those schools.

They can't attend the games in Grand Forks? And since when did IUPUI and Missourri State become well known names in Minnesota and Wisconsin?

[PierreYote]

My hometown high scool on the ND/MT boarder has doubled it's enrollment in under 4 years.

And the town's population has almost tripled. And this is in a community that is a good 50 minute drive to where the real oil boom is going on. .

Anecdotal evidence is great however I am not asking for that. Show me some type of projections that back up Stars statement. I don't doubt schools and towns are increasing in population but please just provide me with something to review.

[bincitysioux]

Anecdotal evidence is great however I am not asking for that. Show me some type of projections that back up Stars statement. I don't doubt schools and towns are increasing in population but please just provide me with something to review.

Don't be so lazy. Google it.......................

[PierreYote]

Don't be so lazy. Google it.......................

Exactly. As I thought.

In response to Longhorn Network v. rest of Big 12 teams TBD money. The TBD money is many many many multiples of Big Sky. Anyway, best of luck in Big Sky. Wish our schools could have continued some games but it looks like it may not happen after the last game in GF this year. Always enjoyed my time in GF and will miss the rivalry. Solid university, teams and fans.

[FSSD]

Anecdotal evidence is great however I am not asking for that. Show me some type of projections that back up Stars statement. I don't doubt schools and towns are increasing in population but please just provide me with something to review.

Quick google shows the following activity today... not future

Housing Development

In western North Dakota, the state is facilitating residential development by providing

$100 million in impact grants. Communities are using these funds to extend their sewer and water services, to build streets, expand their water treatment plants - projects that directly support the development of additional residential housing.

Private developers are responding to the housing demand in a big way. More than 2,300 new housing units in Dickinson alone are in various stages of development, including 700 single family homes, 200 duplexes and 270 apartment units. In Williston, more than 1,750 new housing units are in development, including 218 single family homes, 102 manufactured homes and 537 apartment units. These housing units include hotels and extended-stay facilities. The region's many housing projects include:

• In northeast Minot, Stonebridge Farms is building 22 single-family homes, 48 townhouses, 84 two-and three-bedroom apartments, 24 twin homes and a 48-unit apartment complex. The project's second phase calls for building another 230 single-family homes.
  
• A group of private companies are building a residential community for 1,000 people in the Watford City area. The project will include single-family homes, twin homes, patio homes and apartments for company employees.
  
• Annabelle Homes opened its first 54-home subdivision, in Stanley in September. The development company plans to construct another 100 homes, including single-family and multi-unit townhomes in Stanley and three nearby communities - Tioga, Kenmare and Columbus.
  
• Holms Development Corp. has begun work on a housing project in Columbus, N.D. that calls for building 400 homes and about 500 apartment units.
  
• Diamond Acres LLP, is constructing a 104-acre housing development in Northeast Dickinson. The project includes about 190 lots for single- and multi-family homes as well as 10 commercial lots.
  
• Halliburton is in the early stages of building 30 new homes for its employees in Williston.
  

http://www.commerce.nd.gov/news/detail.asp?newsID=1031