jdub27 Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 So, to answer my previous question... the settlement does not state or imply that the new nickname and logo could not be North Dakota/crossing ND... or dropping FS and having no nickname would result in the perpetual use of the old one. Considering that both of those were in use before the settlement agreement, I think you'd have a hard time convincing someone they are new, as they settlement requires. Even if you think you might win that argument, the NCAA sure isn't going to let it slide with out a nice, lengthy court battle. Not worth wasting more money on a losing battle. Quote
The Sicatoka Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 "If UND does not adopt a new nickname and logo ... " Which logos and names were in use by UND on the date that settlement was signed? Anything in use before the signing of the settlement agreement would not be "new" after the agreement. Quote
90siouxfan Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 would a quick "thanks for looking" reply be in bad taste? Quote
mksioux Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 http://www.ag.nd.gov/ncaa/SettlementAgreement.pdf - (Page 5) "If UND does not adopt a new nickname and logo, or if the transition to a new nickname and logo is not completed prior to August 15, 2001, then UND will be returned to the list of institutions subject to the Policy. In the event UND secures namesake approval but such approval is withdrawn after Novenber 30,2010, UND shall have 1 year to complete transition to a new nickname and logo, unless the parties mutually agree to a period of time longer than one year" Now of course the dates of the deadlines got all messed up with the law that the North Dakota Legislature passed. But the premise still remains, a new name must be selected. The NCAA is being pretty relaxed on the "period longer than one year" timeframe. Basically giving UND all the time they need. As long as they see that a process to replace it is in place. If UND were to announce that they were just going to be known as "North Dakota", the NCAA would have exception to that. I suspect the "new" nickname language was just a drafting oversight. The drafters of the settlement agreement probably didn't think about the possibility of having no nickname. In any event, if the committee were serious about pursuing a no-nickname future, they could reach out to the NCAA for clarification. The NCAA has had no problem with UND using no nickname the past three years, so there's a chance they'd be fine with it. They could simply amend the agreement for clarification. If the NCAA takes the position that new nickname means UND must adopt an entirely new nickname, then I agree the committee wouldn't pursue the no-nickname option. But your position is too dramatic. No-nickname could be a possibility if the committee wants to look into it. I personally don't think the committee will even look into it because they will want to move on to a new nickname. Quote
Siouxperfan7 Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 So, to answer my previous question... the settlement does not state or imply that the new nickname and logo could not be North Dakota/crossing ND... or dropping FS and having no nickname would result in the perpetual use of the old one. The NCAA says that UND must select a new name. That part is cleary stated in the settlement. The reason behind it is that not having a name would result in fans just using the Fighting Sioux name unnoficially as their mascot. Replacing it with nothing results in continues use of the old name. The NCAA knew this would happen. And they were right. It is still happening. We haven't officially been the Fighting Sioux for nearly 3 years and people still refer to the teams as the Sioux. This is precisely why the NCAA mandated in the settlement that we must select a new name. Quote
mksioux Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 The NCAA says that UND must select a new name. That part is cleary stated in the settlement. The reason behind it is that not having a name would result in fans just using the Fighting Sioux name unnoficially as their mascot. Replacing it with nothing results in continues use of the old name. The NCAA knew this would happen. And they were right. It is still happening. We haven't officially been the Fighting Sioux for nearly 3 years and people still refer to the teams as the Sioux. This is precisely why the NCAA mandated in the settlement that we must select a new name. Were you involved in the litigation? I'm not being cute, serious question. If you have some inside knowledge into the NCAA's motive behind that clause, then you're right. If you don't, I think you're just speculating. The way I read it, it could be very intentional by the NCAA, or it could be a drafting oversight. Your reasoning makes sense. But I question it because the NCAA hasn't made a peep about UND not having a nickname the past three years. Quote
Siouxphan27 Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 The NCAA says that UND must select a new name. That part is cleary stated in the settlement. The reason behind it is that not having a name would result in fans just using the Fighting Sioux name unnoficially as their mascot. Replacing it with nothing results in continues use of the old name. The NCAA knew this would happen. And they were right. It is still happening. We haven't officially been the Fighting Sioux for nearly 3 years and people still refer to the teams as the Sioux. This is precisely why the NCAA mandated in the settlement that we must select a new name. You are correct- "people" do, but the university doesn't. The deal is with the university, not the general population. People will still wear their Sioux apparel for years to come regardless of a new nickname or not. If it went to court the ncaa would have no grounds to stand on.....they would be using a Thought Police reasoning to state their case. And besides, the interlocking ND is a new logo. Slippery Rock University gets by calling themselves Slippery Rock with an inference to "The Rock" also being their nickname. So, their nickname is the same as their schoolname, yet they somehow get by without litigation from the ncaa. 2 Quote
Ranger Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 The NCAA says that UND must select a new name. That part is cleary stated in the settlement. The reason behind it is that not having a name would result in fans just using the Fighting Sioux name unnoficially as their mascot. Replacing it with nothing results in continues use of the old name. The NCAA knew this would happen. And they were right. It is still happening. We haven't officially been the Fighting Sioux for nearly 3 years and people still refer to the teams as the Sioux. This is precisely why the NCAA mandated in the settlement that we must select a new name.T The settlement demands UND end its use of Fighting Sioux and select a new nickname. It doesn't state anywhere that no nickname isn't an option. If the parties were concerned about that adaptation, or the use of "North Dakota," as its new nickname, perhaps that specific language should have been placed in the settlement. I suppose we can agree that legal settlements are not the place for imprecise, interpretable language. 1 Quote
The Sicatoka Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 Rerun: Say the NCAA's lawyers showed up tomorrow and said: "Here's the settlement agreement. It says, ..."If UND does not adopt a new nickname and logo, ..., then UND will be returned to the list of institutions subject to the Policy" and we've been very forgiving on timelines until now. We're done. Show us your new, NEW, new since this settlement was signed, nickname and logo. Can't? You have no nickname you say? No ain't new. Welcome back to the list." That'd be their interpretation of the agreement. They'd be within their rights to do that. The only recourse for UND would be to return to the courts claiming "no nickname = new nickname". So, ask yourself: Would UND win in court? Would it be worth the court fight in terms of dollars? Would it be worth the fight in terms of the negative media*? *The media would "harsh on" UND for tacitly allowing the old name to live on. Quote
82SiouxGuy Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 You are correct- "people" do, but the university doesn't. The deal is with the university, not the general population. People will still wear their Sioux apparel for years to come regardless of a new nickname or not. If it went to court the ncaa would have no grounds to stand on.....they would be using a Thought Police reasoning to state their case. And besides, the interlocking ND is a new logo. Slippery Rock University gets by calling themselves Slippery Rock with an inference to "The Rock" also being their nickname. So, their nickname is the same as their schoolname, yet they somehow get by without litigation from the ncaa. UND has been using the interlocking ND since at least the 1930s. It was modified a few years ago to try and make it a little different from Notre Dame, but it is still an interlocking ND. It isn't a new logo in any way, shape or form. Quote
GreenWing Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 the NCAA hasn't made a peep about UND not having a nickname the past three years. ^This is also speculation. The NCAA could be pressuring our Admin, which is speeding up our selection process. Doubt it but who knows Quote
Ranger Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 Considering that both of those were in use before the settlement agreement, I think you'd have a hard time convincing someone they are new, as they settlement requires. Even if you think you might win that argument, the NCAA sure isn't going to let it slide with out a nice, lengthy court battle. Not worth wasting more money on a losing battle. So, by this argument, the new nickname may not have been used... ever? Completely new? Original? That's quite a leap. 1 Quote
Ranger Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 and isn't it about time for the marketing majors to chime in? Quote
Siouxphan27 Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 UND has been using the interlocking ND since at least the 1930s. It was modified a few years ago to try and make it a little different from Notre Dame, but it is still an interlocking ND. It isn't a new logo in any way, shape or form. You know what I meant, but if this fits your premise, go with it. Lol If no logos or nicknames used in the past are going to be allowed as stated by Sicatoka a few posts ago, when will all the N's and D's be removed from campus? Seems like quite an undertaking, hopefully The Herald takes some pics. Quote
The Sicatoka Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 and isn't it about time for the marketing majors to chime in? They're busy ... on the committee*. * Carla Christofferson and Dave St. Peter --> those two surely understand the value of brand identity when marketing a sports franchise Quote
82SiouxGuy Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 So, by this argument, the new nickname may not have been used... ever? Completely new? Original? That's quite a leap. One reading of the settlement agreement would say yes, may not have been used.. ever.... BY THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH DAKOTA. You missed that part. UND could use Warriors or Tigers, 2 of the most popular nicknames around, because UND has not used them before. Quote
Siouxphan27 Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 So, by this argument, the new nickname may not have been used... ever? Completely new? Original? That's quite a leap. Lol agreed. This is sounding more and more like George Orwell's 1984. The letters N and D have now been removed from the alphabet. Adjust accordingly or suffer the consequences! Quote
The Sicatoka Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 You know what I meant, but if this fits your premise, go with it. Lol If no logos or nicknames used in the past are going to be allowed as stated by Sicatoka a few posts ago, when will all the N's and D's be removed from campus? Seems like quite an undertaking, hopefully The Herald takes some pics. The old N's and D's can stay because they comply with the NCAA policy; but, they still aren't "new". "If UND does not adopt a new nickname and logo, ... " <-- As that refers to UND, the "new" applies to UND, as in new to UND. Quote
Oxbow6 Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 They're busy ... on the committee*. * Carla Christofferson and Dave St. Peter --> those two surely understand the value of brand identity when marketing a sports franchise One would hope so. My gut tells me Karl and Dave won't cave to something so lame and pathetic it embarrasses the university as a whole, alumni, students and athletes. Quote
CMSioux Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 The NCAA says that UND must select a new name. That part is cleary stated in the settlement. The reason behind it is that not having a name would result in fans just using the Fighting Sioux name unnoficially as their mascot. Replacing it with nothing results in continues use of the old name. The NCAA knew this would happen. And they were right. It is still happening. We haven't officially been the Fighting Sioux for nearly 3 years and people still refer to the teams as the Sioux. This is precisely why the NCAA mandated in the settlement that we must select a new name. Sadly I think this is correct. It's the same thinking the NCAA gave when they required UND to protect the Fighting Sioux nickname - which means they continue to make and sell a small amount of the "hostile and abusive" logo. The NCAA knew that if they required UND to retire and never use it the logo and name would become rampant. Quote
Ranger Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 They're busy ... on the committee*. * Carla Christofferson and Dave St. Peter --> those two surely understand the value of brand identity when marketing a sports franchise *and the butts-in-seats watching the twins gets smaller each season. surpised he hasn't been fired. Quote
The Sicatoka Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 One would hope so. My gut tells me Karl and Dave* won't cave to something so lame and pathetic it embarrasses the university as a whole, alumni, students and athletes. * And hopefully Schweigert and Idowu also. Quote
Oxbow6 Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 *and the butts-in-seats watching the twins gets smaller each season. surpised he hasn't been fired. Complete tangent but the contracts 7 and 33 got a few years back set the franchise back competitively for a minimum of a decade. Quote
82SiouxGuy Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 You know what I meant, but if this fits your premise, go with it. Lol If no logos or nicknames used in the past are going to be allowed as stated by Sicatoka a few posts ago, when will all the N's and D's be removed from campus? Seems like quite an undertaking, hopefully The Herald takes some pics. The agreement doesn't say that they have to stop using the ND logo (and certainly doesn't say that they have to stop using the letters N and D). tSic didn't say that no logos or nicknames used in the past are allowed. The agreement says that they have to stop using the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo, and that they have to replace the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo with a new nickname and new logo. It is spelled out pretty simply in the settlement agreement section printed above. The ND logo has been a secondary logo for many years. It can continue to be a secondary logo. But UND has to choose a new nickname and a new logo to replace Fighting Sioux as the primary nickname. Quote
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