Big Sky or Summit/Valley?

[darell1976]

It was changed the year UND went down and beat UNI. That wasn't ndsu's first season as a D1 school.

Yep 2006. NDSU's 4th year of transition.

[Bison Dan]

No it wasn't... the point system was in place through the 2005 season. UND was a five seed in the region in 2004 and a four seed in 2005 and would have missed the playoffs both years if they had played NDSU.

2006 was the year it was changed so that results against opponents outside of D-II were essentially meaningless.

Point system was still in place but the penalty for playing up was gone.

[Hambone]

Point system was still in place but the penalty for playing up was gone.

Do you have anything that states this? You know that the person that you're saying is wrong is pretty much an expert on D2 football, don't you? Although I don't know which person is actually right, I would think that Bob has more credibility on the issue. So please provide evidence of this Dan.

Edit - Bob, would you have any link or anything from the rule book that would state this either? I'd really like to know the actual answer so we can put this to bed.....

[Hansel]

It was changed the year UND went down and beat UNI. That wasn't ndsu's first season as a D1 school.

[82SiouxGuy]

Jim Dahl's post right after Hammersmith.

At the time the schedule was made it was in UND's best interest not to schedule a Division IAA team.

[mksioux]

I'm on record preferring the MVFC for many reasons I won't reiterate.

Once again, the Iowa-Iowa State and Florida-Florida State examples are distinguishable as they are FBS schools with 12-game schedules and they also have no need for a "money game." They have plenty of room on their schedules to schedule an in-state OOC rival. NDSU has only two non-conference FCS games. UND in the BIg Sky will also have two, and maybe only one if the Big Sky moves to a 9-game schedule. So if you prefer the BIg Sky, thats fine, but do so knowing it probably means an annual rivalry game between UND and NDSU won't happen and games against the South Dakots schools will be rare. If you're okay with that, then the Big Sky is a great choice.

[dlsiouxfan]

I'm on record preferring the MVFC for many reasons I won't reiterate.

Once again, the Iowa-Iowa State and Florida-Florida State examples are distinguishable as they are FBS schools with 12-game schedules and they also have no need for a "money game." They have plenty of room on their schedules to schedule an in-state OOC rival. NDSU has only two non-conference FCS games. UND in the BIg Sky will also have two, and maybe only one if the Big Sky moves to a 9-game schedule. So if you prefer the BIg Sky, thats fine, but do so knowing it probably means an annual rivalry game between UND and NDSU won't happen and games against the South Dakots schools will be rare. If you're okay with that, then the Big Sky is a great choice.

If we only have one non-conference game in such a scenario then I'd prefer it be NDSU. There is a lot of talk about the SD schools but I can tell you that as a former player games the build up for games against USD and SDSU was a lot more like the build up for games against Mankato and St. Cloud than it ever was for a game against NDSU. NDSU hates to admit but they need the rivalry game just as much as we do. The game elevated interest in the fans of both programs and judging by the 8,000 empty seat you'll see in Fargo tomorrow they could use that kind of interest.

[johnson]

Big Sky is a great conference. That is the conference UND, NDSU, USD, and SDSU should have joined back when we also should all have gove D1AA. We are going to a conference with trips to great spots in Montana, California, Oregon, Arizona, Colorado and Utah. Conference has great tradition and has had success in FB and BB. Nothing wrong wtith Summit but their FB conference was more attractive. Wouldn't be surprised in the other Dakota teams make the move in the future. The "old NCC' was a great conference and had great success.

I think Sioux fans are very happy with the conference. Should be attractive for recruiting. We need to move it up to the next level. $$$ support, fans in the stands, marketing, media coverage, entertainment at events and connection with the students, GF community and region.

Talked to John Q Paulsen last week. He made sure he told me he didn't think UND was any good but when I told him he needed to get the rivalry going again he agreed and said he had been trying but Taylor and Bohl don't want to. Too bad. They would likely have had the upper hand lately (especially this year). They might have made a dent on the big advantage UND has over them over the years in FB. If they wait too long it will be back to the norm with UND dominating again.

I believe UND and NDSU applied to the Big Sky in 1978 but were turned down.

The BSC is a good fit for UND right now. It covers all sports and is in the same region that Mussman has been focusing a lot of his recruiting on lately.

I don't believe that John would say something like that at all. Your story reminds me of the time you claimed that you knew a student who had an in with the NDSU administration. I am still waiting for that big story to break about the huge deficit that Hanson was covering up.

Taylor made an offer to start up the rivalry again and Faison countered. I think now that UND is in the BSC most will understand why Taylor didn't want a annual game yet. Gene just called Faison last month to see if he could make a game work for next year to fill Georgia Southerns date. Neither one could get a open date to work. The process has started and the game will eventually happen. The legislature won't have to get involved.

[johnson]

If we only have one non-conference game in such a scenario then I'd prefer it be NDSU. There is a lot of talk about the SD schools but I can tell you that as a former player games the build up for games against USD and SDSU was a lot more like the build up for games against Mankato and St. Cloud than it ever was for a game against NDSU. NDSU hates to admit but they need the rivalry game just as much as we do. The game elevated interest in the fans of both programs and judging by the 8,000 empty seat you'll see in Fargo tomorrow they could use that kind of interest.

With the playoff game tomorrow NDSU will break an all-time season attendance record. I don't think they need it as much as you believe. I think it would be great to see it again soon but it isn't needed by NDSU.

[bincitysioux]

I'm on record via countless posts as to why I prefer the Big Sky over the Summit League or any combination of Summit League/MVFC/Big Sky/Southland/ Independent that I'll try not to repeat here again and again............

To me, it is kind of like choosing between the Big East and the Big 10....................not such a hard decision. Both are AQ leages and have their merits, but the choice is obvious.

So if you prefer the BIg Sky, thats fine, but do so knowing it probably means an annual rivalry game between UND and NDSU won't happen and games against the South Dakots schools will be rare. If you're okay with that, then the Big Sky is a great choice.

That sounds great to me. I haven't lost sleep over not playing NDSU or SDSU in football the last 7 years, I won't in the future.

I think now that UND is in the BSC most will understand why Taylor didn't want a annual game yet. Gene just called Faison last month to see if he could make a game work for next year to fill Georgia Southerns date. Neither one could get a open date to work. The process has started and the game will eventually happen.

I agree the game will eventually happen................................it will happen exactly 2 football seasons after Gene Taylor leaves NDSU. It is funny how the only time Taylor has went to the newspapers to point out that he "contacted" North Dakota about a game was when it was for a date that UND has had publicly scheduled with and FBS oppenent for well over a year. What happened to being "sensitive" to the Summit League's stance on scheduling North Daktota?

[Cratter]

With the playoff game tomorrow NDSU will break an all-time season attendance record. I don't think they need it as much as you believe. I think it would be great to see it again soon but it isn't needed by NDSU.

And is it really needed by UND?

an extra 4-6,000 fans every other year for one game at UND?

Percent wise of fans attending sporting events at their perspective colleges UND would have less to gain.

[nd1sufan]

And is it really needed by UND?

an extra 4-6,000 fans every other year for one game at UND?

Percent wise of fans attending sporting events at their perspective colleges UND would have less to gain.

Actually, UND would charge more for one game(the NDSU game) than they currently do for season tickets ($40).

[82SiouxGuy]

Actually, UND would charge more for one game(the NDSU game) than they currently do for season tickets ($40).

Only a limited number of season tickets are sold for $40. Most are more than that. I believe that ours are $75 or something like that. The $40 season tickets will probably go away now that UND is in the Big Sky. I'm not going to predict what an individual ticket price will be.

[johnson]

I agree the game will eventually happen................................it will happen exactly 2 football seasons after Gene Taylor leaves NDSU. It is funny how the only time Taylor has went to the newspapers to point out that he "contacted" North Dakota about a game was when it was for a date that UND has had publicly scheduled with and FBS oppenent for well over a year. What happened to being "sensitive" to the Summit League's stance on scheduling North Daktota?

And it could happen two season after Faison leaves. I know UND fans feel Taylor is to blame. Well guess what NDSU fans think Faison is to blame. I guess that means both AD's are to blame. Taylor called to see if a date could work. AD's can move games around sometimes to get an open date that works. That wasn't the case with the 2011 schedule. I guess big bad Gene Taylor shouldn't have called at all.

UND has the nickname and logo issue resolved. That was the issue with the Summit and scheduling UND.

[johnson]

And is it really needed by UND?

an extra 4-6,000 fans every other year for one game at UND?

Percent wise of fans attending sporting events at their perspective colleges UND would have less to gain.

Up until UND joined the Big Sky they needed all the help they could get with the FB schedule.

[82SiouxGuy]

And it could happen two season after Faison leaves. I know UND fans feel Taylor is to blame. Well guess what NDSU fans think Faison is to blame. I guess that means both AD's are to blame. Taylor called to see if a date could work. AD's can move games around sometimes to get an open date that works. That wasn't the case with the 2011 schedule. I guess big bad Gene Taylor shouldn't have called at all.

UND has the nickname and logo issue resolved. That was the issue with the Summit and scheduling UND.

UND and NDSU couldn't schedule a game with Roger Thomas and Taylor as the ADs, NDSU fans said it was Thomas' fault. They couldn't schedule a game when Tom Bunning and Taylor were the ADs, NDSU fans said it was Bunning's fault. Now they can't schedule a game with Faison and Taylor and NDSU fans say it's Faison's fault. I see 2 constants, Taylor is part of the negotiations, and NDSU fans blame UND.

[FargoBison]

UND and NDSU couldn't schedule a game with Roger Thomas and Taylor as the ADs, NDSU fans said it was Thomas' fault. They couldn't schedule a game when Tom Bunning and Taylor were the ADs, NDSU fans said it was Bunning's fault. Now they can't schedule a game with Faison and Taylor and NDSU fans say it's Faison's fault. I see 2 constants, Taylor is part of the negotiations, and NDSU fans blame UND.

Actually I'd say it was RT's fault, it was Taylor/Chapman's fault with Bunning and it is Faison's fault now.

[johnson]

UND and NDSU couldn't schedule a game with Roger Thomas and Taylor as the ADs, NDSU fans said it was Thomas' fault. They couldn't schedule a game when Tom Bunning and Taylor were the ADs, NDSU fans said it was Bunning's fault. Now they can't schedule a game with Faison and Taylor and NDSU fans say it's Faison's fault. I see 2 constants, Taylor is part of the negotiations, and NDSU fans blame UND.

Joel Heitkamp had Taylor and Bunning on his radio show to have Bunning tell Taylor UND finally wanted to play again after NDSU was four years into their transition. Bunning expected Taylor to just say OK. Taylor already had been finding eleven games to play and they were selling tickets. If I was sitting in that chair behind that mic I would have said no too. After the way Thomas had handled the move I don't think the first discussion for renewing the rivalry should have been held on Joel Heitkamp's show. Then Faison comes in and decides to call Forum Comm. to tell NDSU "We're ready to play, so lets play." before he even called Taylor discuss the possibility of a game.

Now to UND fans that type of negotiating might seem professional. But to me and many other NDSU fans that is bush league negotiating. UND is starting to have attendance issues and up until the BSC announcement the FB scheduling has been a nightmare. Instead of taking an every other year offer to get the game going again Faison refuses and schedules more D2 games and draws 6,000 fans. Taylor schedules an FCS cupcake from the east coast and sells 18,000 tickets. Explain to me why Taylor should give into Faison's demand of an annual game when Taylor wants an FBS, FCS cupcake, and a bigger FCS school (Montana, Montana St., etc.). Taylor has made an offer that is for a home and home and works best for NDSU at this time. Now that UND is in the BSC the annual game might not actually work. The BSC and MVFC set the conference schedules and both schools aren't going to give up a guaranteed FBS money game. Open dates are going to become an issue now and I for one don't want to have the exact same schedule year after year which is exactly what will happen if an annual game is played right now.

[iramurphy]

I believe UND and NDSU applied to the Big Sky in 1978 but were turned down.

The BSC is a good fit for UND right now. It covers all sports and is in the same region that Mussman has been focusing a lot of his recruiting on lately.

I don't believe that John would say something like that at all. Your story reminds me of the time you claimed that you knew a student who had an in with the NDSU administration. I am still waiting for that big story to break about the huge deficit that Hanson was covering up.

Taylor made an offer to start up the rivalry again and Faison countered. I think now that UND is in the BSC most will understand why Taylor didn't want a annual game yet. Gene just called Faison last month to see if he could make a game work for next year to fill Georgia Southerns date. Neither one could get a open date to work. The process has started and the game will eventually happen. The legislature won't have to get involved.

Really don't care what you believe. I spoke with John,( I used to work for him) and he certainly said that and I countered with "we aren't very good this year". I told him he needed to push NDSU to resume the rivalry and he agreed and said he was trying but couldn't get "those guys" to agree. Those guys included Taylor. He reminded me that I and one of my partners sent him a dozen black roses when UND broke their 12 game winning streak against NDSU and we had a good laugh. There are very loyal NDSU alumni and fans who are smart enough to see what Chapman did and the mess he made. I don't believe you are one of them. I would never betray a friend so I wouldn't discuss where I learned things about the Chapman mess but it is all information available to you if you put your beer down and make the effort. I suggested you go talk to Dick Hanson. I don't know him but my guess is that he has put that mess behind him. Try looking into leases for buildings that NDSU has for buildings that still sit empty. The Chapman issue is over and NDSU wll recover. A UND grad gave your school $1 million to build a home and another more than that to finance the business building. You ought to do the same.

A couple of other corrections. The Big Sky is a good fit but does not cover all sports. It doesn't have baseball and I don't think( but I can't remember for sure) swimming. I never "claimed I knew a student who had an in with the NDSU administratioon". When you accuse someone of something you need to keep your facts straight. I don't hang out with students, I simply passed on information available to the public through the open meetings and information open to the public about the financial mess Chapman left at NDSU. I also never said Hanson covered up anything and in fact he did a good job. Chapman and his lackeys did the cover-up. I also said Hanson should have been given a shot at the presidency. He would have done a good job and he will do a great job with Bemidji State.

UND did not apply to the Big Sky in 1978. I was still on staff at that time. I can't speak for what NDSU did then but I believe there were discussions in the media and within the institutions. There is a big difference between that and applying and getting turned down. The NCC was still a very good conference at that time.

[johnson]

Really don't care what you believe. I spoke with John,( I used to work for him) and he certainly said that and I countered with "we aren't very good this year". I told him he needed to push NDSU to resume the rivalry and he agreed and said he was trying but couldn't get "those guys" to agree. Those guys included Taylor. He reminded me that I and one of my partners sent him a dozen black roses when UND broke their 12 game winning streak against NDSU and we had a good laugh. There are very loyal NDSU alumni and fans who are smart enough to see what Chapman did and the mess he made. I don't believe you are one of them. I would never betray a friend so I wouldn't discuss where I learned things about the Chapman mess but it is all information available to you if you put your beer down and make the effort. I suggested you go talk to Dick Hanson. I don't know him but my guess is that he has put that mess behind him. Try looking into leases for buildings that NDSU has for buildings that still sit empty. The Chapman issue is over and NDSU wll recover. A UND grad gave your school $1 million to build a home and another more than that to finance the business building. You ought to do the same.

A couple of other corrections. The Big Sky is a good fit but does not cover all sports. It doesn't have baseball and I don't think( but I can't remember for sure) swimming. I never "claimed I knew a student who had an in with the NDSU administratioon". When you accuse someone of something you need to keep your facts straight. I don't hang out with students, I simply passed on information available to the public through the open meetings and information open to the public about the financial mess Chapman left at NDSU. I also never said Hanson covered up anything and in fact he did a good job. Chapman and his lackeys did the cover-up. I also said Hanson should have been given a shot at the presidency. He would have done a good job and he will do a great job with Bemidji State.

UND did not apply to the Big Sky in 1978. I was still on staff at that time. I can't speak for what NDSU did then but I believe there were discussions in the media and within the institutions. There is a big difference between that and applying and getting turned down. The NCC was still a very good conference at that time.

you telling us about the deficit

my response

telling us about the student with the information

"My source is a former NDSU student who doesn't disclose any confidential info but knows the details of the problems with Chapman."

my response

The info on the Big Sky move in 1978 came from Kolpacks book. Didn't verify the info just took it as fact:

From Bison Football: Three Decades of Excellence, page 103 (edited for space):

The big news in early 1978 was a report that the two North Dakota universities were interested in joining the Big Sky Conference.

NDSU and the University of North Dakota got into the conversation after the Big Sky Conference voted to move up from Division II in the NCAA to Division I-AA. The conference created a committee to study future expansion.

Talk of the Bison and Sioux leaving the NCC got a boost when Northern Iowa announced that it was dropping out of the NCC to join the Mid-Continent Athletic Association.

North Dakota, NDSU, Nevada-Reno and Portland (Ore.) State were interested in Big Sky membership. Reno and Portland were independent.

When Norther Iowa left the North Central, the Bison and the Sioux lost an ally for a strong football program. There was some doubt if the NCC was willing to support a program that could challenge for the national Division II championship.

"My coaches remind me that all five of our losses in the last two years were to schools with a more liberal scholarship program," said Ade Sponberg, Bison athletic director.

North Dakota and North Dakota State were prepared to act together if there was a move to another league. One of the questions facing both schools was the cost of moving up to Division I-AA.

...Officials at North Dakota State and North Dakota let the Big Sky know in early May that they were interested in joinging the Division I-AA conference - if the Big Sky was interested in them.

The word came on May 23. Nevada-Reno was asked at a meeting of league presidents to join the Big Sky conference. That shut out the Bison and the Sioux.

"They weren't ready to handle a 10-game schedule," said Sponberg, who attended the Big Sky meeting with Fred Walsh, the NDSU institutional representative. "Weber State has a lucrative non-conference basketball schedule and Boise State is sitting the same way in football. They didn't want to give that up.

"We're not discouraged because we lost. We gave it our best shot. It's hard to say what the future holds. But it's (expansion in the Big Sky) not a dead issue."

You are correct that Baseball has been left out in the cold. Your swimming team is already in a solid conference. I meant all major sports are covered. Sorry for the confusion.

edit: I do believe you told us that you were attending Sanford meetings and asking about the potential donation to NDSU's BSA. Your response was that there wasn't going to be any donation. $10,000,000 later I say you were wrong about that one too.

[RD17]

Point system was still in place but the penalty for playing up was gone.

I realize that I'm back to this thread a little late and and much of this is pointless to go over six years after the fact but here it goes:

The penalty for playing up was far less severe, as a loss to a I-AA school gave 9 points while a loss to a good (higher than .700 winning %) D-II team was worth 8. The problem was that a win over a I-AA team was only worth 11, which was the same as beating a D-II team with between a .500 and .700 record at home. So although the point penalty for losing wasn't as severe, there wasn't much incentive to play a I-AA when you could get the same points for beating Ferris State, West Chester, or Western Washington (all teams UND played at home in 2004-2005). The other thing they started doing in 2004 was incorporating overall winning percentage into a strength of schedule index. So losing games to a I-AA hurt and there wasn't enough of a reward in the event that a D-II team did win.

In 2006 they changed it to the way it is now where I-AA games don't matter whatsoever. So the wins by UND over UNI in 2006 and SUU in 2007 did not help or hurt the cause.

[Bison Dan]

I realize that I'm back to this thread a little late and and much of this is pointless to go over six years after the fact but here it goes:

The penalty for playing up was far less severe, as a loss to a I-AA school gave 9 points while a loss to a good (higher than .700 winning %) D-II team was worth 8. The problem was that a win over a I-AA team was only worth 11, which was the same as beating a D-II team with between a .500 and .700 record at home. So although the point penalty for losing wasn't as severe, there wasn't much incentive to play a I-AA when you could get the same points for beating Ferris State, West Chester, or Western Washington (all teams UND played at home in 2004-2005). The other thing they started doing in 2004 was incorporating overall winning percentage into a strength of schedule index. So losing games to a I-AA hurt and there wasn't enough of a reward in the event that a D-II team did win.

In 2006 they changed it to the way it is now where I-AA games don't matter whatsoever. So the wins by UND over UNI in 2006 and SUU in 2007 did not help or hurt the cause.

You can spin playing the fb game forever but how do you explain not playing in all the "other" sports?? Man up and realize that RT was being vindictive and hoping by not playing in other sports that our move would fail big time. Now in your 3rd year of transition we've played in volleyball and now MBB. How many games did we play against each other in our 3rd year?

[darell1976]

You can spin playing the fb game forever but how do you explain not playing in all the "other" sports?? Man up and realize that RT was being vindictive and hoping by not playing in other sports that our move would fail big time. Now in your 3rd year of transition we've played in volleyball and now MBB. How many games did we play against each other in our 3rd year?

That is the million dollar question. We shouldn't have stopped playing NDSU in other sports. RT and Kupchella were stupid people and they should be blamed for that part.

[star2city]

You can spin playing the fb game forever but how do you explain not playing in all the "other" sports?? Man up and realize that RT was being vindictive and hoping by not playing in other sports that our move would fail big time. Now in your 3rd year of transition we've played in volleyball and now MBB. How many games did we play against each other in our 3rd year?

You view everything through a distorted Chapman lens. Chapman's scorched earth policy towards all ND institutions destroyed NDSU's relationship with everybody - except Cass County leaders and state leaders who were stupid enough to drink his koolaid. Kupchella should have been a bigger man to accept playing NDSU in all sports but football - but the back room tactics of Chapman was just too much for UND to stomach. Why play a pit bull - like Chapman - when he has the advantages? Athletics was just a pawn of politics going on with Chapman and the mess he created with the State Board of Higher Education and Legislature.

[Bison Dan]

You view everything through a distorted Chapman lens. Chapman's scorched earth policy towards all ND institutions destroyed NDSU's relationship with everybody - except Cass County leaders and state leaders who were stupid enough to drink his koolaid. Kupchella should have been a bigger man to accept playing NDSU in all sports but football - but the back room tactics of Chapman was just too much for UND to stomach. Why play a pit bull - like Chapman - when he has the advantages? Athletics was just a pawn of politics going on with Chapman and the mess he created with the State Board of Higher Education and Legislature.

So UND not playing NDSU is Chapman's fault? That's what you're going with? WOW you have a distorted view of the facts! You need to get off that broken record.