redwing77 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Ok, I see your point Chief, but listen to this wild speculation: Remember what happened to the advocate who got what he or she wanted? They had nothing to complain about so they were forced to be muted. It's like Hamas and Israel. If Hamas and the Palestinian land recognizes the State of Israel, then they are forced to abide by international law and, legally, Israel can wipe them out if they continue to practice terroristic acts against Israel. So they don't. This prolongs the confrontation and makes Israel look foolish for, IIRC, they recognized at least partially the right of the Palestinian government to govern their lands. So...do the math. If the Tribes don't use the lever and the Nickname changes, they get what they want AND they get to continue to rail UND and blame them for their problems because surely the backlash will be because UND is a hostile and racist organization. The Advocates don't lose their jobs...or at least dont' have to look far to find a new thing to advocate for. I'm sure this Time Out cancellation is just another log to throw onto the fire that burns under the idealism that is victim mentality. It's not so much the lack of funding that caused the cancellation. It is rather the lack of support from UND that caused its cancellation. If UND truly fostered NA growth and prosperity, the tribes and the Indian Programs people wouldn't have had to pay any bills to run the event. Everything would be free and they can charge admission and it would be 100% profit. Now, this is wild speculation. But it is in line with how they come across publicly. At least to me anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewey Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Well, the leaders of the tribes are incredibly short-sighted. If they use the example of Florida State, the tribes benefit financially (including the casinos with the additional recognition being attached to the University), the tribes have increased national exposure....there is much to be achieved by a partnership with the state's flagship university. If the tribes do nothing and the name changes, they lose the ability to achieve the benefits of a Florida State kind of arrangement forever. Add to this, that the city of Grand Forks and much of the entire state will be seeing this as a few NA leaders (not the entire tribes hopefully), in league with the UND professors/administrators (and one need not look far to see that memories in Western North Dakota are long when it comes to professors/administrators at the two main universities in the East -- see Measure No. 6 of 1980 - a major flop that booted oil companies out of the state at least 4 years before the market crashed in 1986 - and see the narrow defeat of the proposal to make Minot State "Dakota Northwestern University" in 1984). If the NA leaders don't see that this could harm casino revenues, they may be terribly surprised. Do they really want to partner up with the university professors/administrators on this? The NA leaders had better think long and hard about that, too. If one gets 3 miles west of Grand Forks and Fargo, one finds that 99.9% (instead of 95%) of the people are extremely opposed to all of this PC inspired business. The tribes hopefully are concerned about their relations with the state's population, many of whom are UND grads and feel passionately about the nickname. If ND had a deficit, I think one would see some considerable push for gaming in bars/restaurants like they have in SD. Many in MN are already open to this, not publicly yet, due to MN's huge deficit. I would be surprised if the tribal leaders are so blinded by the "stick it to ya" PC mindset to not see these things. Maybe I'm wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Illiniwek Supporter Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 If the Tribes don't use the lever and the Nickname changes, they get what they want AND they get to continue to rail UND and blame them for their problems because surely the backlash will be because UND is a hostile and racist organization. The Advocates don't lose their jobs...or at least dont' have to look far to find a new thing to advocate for.Well, I don't disagree that if/when the nickname changes, the new mantra will be that UND didn't change fast enough. But sooner or later that line of thinking will have to fade away. UND will be no different than any other school. And I really think that there will be a backlash: people will start to look at the tribes as mere obstructionists, unable to use common sense to compromise about a situation that is clearly overblown. That's when apathy towards Indian causes will set in. JMHO. Well, the leaders of the tribes are incredibly short-sighted. If they use the example of Florida State, the tribes benefit financially (including the casinos with the additional recognition being attached to the University), the tribes have increased national exposure....there is much to be achieved by a partnership with the state's flagship university.I'm not a legal expert, but AFAIK the Seminole nickname and association with Florida State University has/had no bearing on the ability of the Seminole tribe to open casinos (or conduct any other type of gambling) within the state of Florida. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwing77 Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 didn't change fast enough is only part of it. If there is a single iota of backlash...say, for example, some idiot makes a stupid tshirt or perhaps an idiot makes a stupid remark to a NA student or even if something, God forbid, gets vandalized it will simply refuel the fire. They feed off this crap. Moving on is the least of their concern. I'm sure, once things cool down after the nickname has been changed, some of them will deep down miss the nickname because then complaining and whining at UND was much easier. As you said, UND will become just another University. Other than the usual gripes regarding how an institution could spend more on whatnot, there's nothing left to whine about. It will be an end to what they term "legit" grievance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 They feed off this crap. Moving on is the least of their concern. I'm sure, once things cool down after the nickname has been changed, some of them will deep down miss the nickname because then complaining and whining at UND was much easier. As you said, UND will become just another University. Other than the usual gripes regarding how an institution could spend more on whatnot, there's nothing left to whine about. It will be an end to what they term "legit" grievance. I tend to agree. There are professional, perpetual "victims" out there who do nothing but complain about their hurt little feelings and the "hurt" feelings of others. Once the name/logo go away they'll still be around to cry about the lack of NAs on the campus, lack of NAs running Fortune 500 companies, -30 windchill, too much caffiene in their lattes, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Illiniwek Supporter Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 ...Once the name/logo go away they'll still be around to cry about the lack of NAs on the campus, lack of NAs running Fortune 500 companies...Yes, but the difference is that if/when the nickname goes, sooner or later your campus will become no different than ND State, Harvard or Hawaii. The ties to the Native community will be no more or less than anywhere else at that point. The incessant complaining will get just as much traction in North Dakota as it does in Texas or Oregon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxbow6 Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I tend to agree. There are professional, perpetual "victims" out there who do nothing but complain about their hurt little feelings and the "hurt" feelings of others. Once the name/logo go away they'll still be around to cry about the lack of NAs on the campus, lack of NAs running Fortune 500 companies, -30 windchill, too much caffiene in their lattes, etc. But with the increase in births out of wedlock on the rez, there be plenty of them around in the future to become those CEOs of Fortune 500 companies...but only after their free education at UND! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammersmith Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Full committee and chairman named. Chairman: Grant Shaft, State Board of Higher Ed, attorney, former state legislator Committee: Ryan Bernstein, Hoeven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayduke Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I can't believe our luck. We got the BADDEST chairman of the nickname committee possible!!! Who is the man that would risk his neck For his brother man? SHAFT! Can you dig it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!! Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Does anyone think these guys will actually accomplish anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Does anyone think these guys will actually accomplish anything? No. They'll go through the motions, give some meely-mouthed report and the the name/logo are still on their way out. But everyone will feel better, we can sing "Kumbaya" and sunshine and lolipops will reign forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sioux7>5 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I want to know why members of the two tribes get a say on the new nickname. They should not get a seat at the table. UND should be able to change it to anything they want to as long as it does not have NA imagery. Beyond that get them off the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I can't believe our luck. We got the BADDEST chairman of the nickname committee possible!!! Who is the man that would risk his neck For his brother man? SHAFT! Can you dig it? Shut yo mouth... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimdahl Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Full committee and chairman named. Chairman: Grant Shaft, State Board of Higher Ed, attorney, former state legislator Committee: Ryan Bernstein, Hoeven's staff attorney Robert Boyd, UND vice president Steve Burian, UND alumnus who heads a Grand Forks civil engineering and consulting company Pam Gulleson, Dorgan's state director Jody Hodgeson, general manager of the Ralph Engelstad Arena Tom Iron, Standing Rock Sioux tribal member Erich Longie, Spirit Lake reservation resident Jeremiah Lunde, UND law student Celeste Melander, UND student I don't see how they can claim to be representative of the UND community and nickname stakeholders without anyone from SiouxSports.com on the committee They say this cat Shaft is a bad mother... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choyt3 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I want to know why members of the two tribes get a say on the new nickname. They should not get a seat at the table. UND should be able to change it to anything they want to as long as it does not have NA imagery. Beyond that get them off the board. It isn't a committee to choose a new nickname. It is a "nickname resolution committee", as stated by the chancellor on Jan. 15th, when the first members of the committee were named. The only "new" items in the story are the names of the rest of the members. The original story said nothing that I recall about them being given the task of coming up with a new nickname. I also agree with Jim... where's the siouxsports.com representation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sioux7>5 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 It isn't a committee to choose a new nickname. It is a "nickname resolution committee", as stated by the chancellor on Jan. 15th, when the first members of the committee were named. The only "new" items in the story are the names of the rest of the members. The original story said nothing that I recall about them being given the task of coming up with a new nickname. I also agree with Jim... where's the siouxsports.com representation? Ok I misunderstood what the committe's was for. Thanks for setting me straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Illiniwek Supporter Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Ok I misunderstood what the committe's was for. Thanks for setting me straight. My first thought is "why aren't the titles either 'UND Alum' or 'UND Prof' or whatever?" Personally, I don't particularly mind that there are necessarily tribal members on this committee: but isn't there anyone from the tribes who has graduated from North Dakota? I also think that given the size of this committee, having two people whose only connection to the University is being a member of a Native American tribe located in your state is giving them outsized influence. (I recognize that once you have a member of one of the NCAA-blessed tribes you need both, but that's still too many for a committee of this size.) And with that said, I also have to say that IMHO an employee of your arena shouldn't be on a "nickname resolution committee". Spirit Lake reservation resident Someone needs to explain this title. (I added the emphasis.) I don't see how they can claim to be representative of the UND community and nickname stakeholders without anyone from SiouxSports.com on the committee. You have to turn this around Jim. This is the question for you: why are there any Sioux fans out there who are NOT on SiouxSports.com? Oh, and Jim? One more thing: "Shut your mouth!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNDvince97-01 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I want to know why members of the two tribes get a say on the new nickname. They should not get a seat at the table. UND should be able to change it to anything they want to as long as it does not have NA imagery. Beyond that get them off the board. I know the committee won't be in charge of this, but to reiterate, please no new nickname. We are The University of North Dakota. "The U". Vicariously and unofficially, people can still call us the Sioux. Could merchandisers still produce the logo and sell it, even though it wouldn't be recognized by the NCAA? I don't know the legal ramifications of it. Who owns it officially? The university or the artist? Bottom line: PLEASE, NO NEW NICKNAME. Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puck Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I know the committee won't be in charge of this, but to reiterate, please no new nickname. We are The University of North Dakota. "The U". Vicariously and unofficially, people can still call us the Sioux. Could merchandisers still produce the logo and sell it, even though it wouldn't be recognized by the NCAA? I don't know the legal ramifications of it. Who owns it officially? The university or the artist? Bottom line: PLEASE, NO NEW NICKNAME. Just my opinion. I like it.... "Here's Your University of North Dakota Fighting U Scoring!!!!!!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagies Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I like it.... "Here's Your University of North Dakota Fighting U Scoring!!!!!!!!" Call me crazy, but I actually like the Fighting U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Illiniwek Supporter Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 ...I actually like the Fighting U. "It took me three hours to figure out that FU meant Felix Unger!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNDvince97-01 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 "It took me three hours to figure out that FU meant Felix Unger!" Don't be giving the NCAA any more ammo now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I also agree with Jim... where's the siouxsports.com representation? Dude, I am "Craig Dahl"-ing it: I'm sittin' by the phone waitin' for "The Call". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choyt3 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Someone needs to explain this title. (I added the emphasis.) Seems this "Spirit Lake reservation resident" attended UND, and has an agenda. ** Seventh, as leaders, it is the tribal council members Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxbow6 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 No. They'll go through the motions, give some meely-mouthed report and the the name/logo are still on their way out. But everyone will feel better, we can sing "Kumbaya" and sunshine and lolipops will reign forever. Dude, you forgot frolicking in a dewey meadow and visions of CareBears everywhere! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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