UND's athletic budget

[Rick]

MSU-Moorhead/NDSU/Concordia students that take coursework at more than one school. A student at MSU-Moorhead, for instance, can take courses at NDSU or Concordia.

So who claims them in their official enrollment count?

[The Sicatoka]

So who claims them in their official enrollment count?

Anyone who can.

[Hammersmith]

So who claims them in their official enrollment count?

I can't speak for MSUM or CC, but I'm pretty sure that the ND SBoHE requires NDSU to count them(MSUM/CC students who take classes at NDSU) as part of its total enrollment. It goes back to a few years ago when the Board standardized all reporting across the NDUS campuses. Potentially, a Tri-College student can be counted three times if they take classes at all three institutions. Most TC students are counted twice, as they usually only take classes from one of the two other universities.

Before anyone gets too up in arms, it's the same system that allows UND to count a full time Minot State student(or other NDUS school) as a correspondence student as long as they take a single UND class via the internet. Those students are counted as part of UND's total enrollment. It's the way the SBoHE counts students.

As for the OPE numbers, for the last two years(at least), UND has reported its total enrollment instead of its undergraduate; the numbers are identical(+/- 1 student). I have to assume it's unintentional(since there's not much advantage in reporting the wrong figures*), but it's surprising that the mistake was made for yet another year.

*Since the data is used for equity calculations, the main advantage to reporting the wrong number would be if the unversity was way out of compliance with Title IX and the ratio of men to women in the graduate and professional programs was weighted so heavily towards men that it significantly helped the overall M/W balance. Since UND's Title IX compliance is quite good, I can't see any reason to deliberately send the wrong number.

[siouxjoy]

What I think is interesting about the counting of "tri-college" students is that I remember a few years ago when on the news an official at MSU-M (yes I know this is vague, but I honestly don't remember the title or name of the person) spoke out about how NDSU counts the "tri-college" enrollments. He was pretty much stating that NDSU gets all these accolades for growing enrollment, biggest college in F-M area, etc, when so many of the students were only taking 1 class from NDSU and paying all of their tuition and fees to MSU-M and Concordia. Apparently (talking to people I know that work in higher ed in the F-M area) it caused a big uproar, and the story was pulled from the 10:00 news.

I will admit that I could be wrong, but I was told that only if a student paid a certain amount of student fees could they be included in UND's enrollment, so most of the correspondence students aren't included, only the ones that are taking a high enough number of credits to pay the student fee dollars. If UND did count every singe correspondence student, the enrollment would be much, much higher.

My guess on the info reported to the OPE, one person reported it wrong, and the next person "just did what was done before", inadvertantly continuing the error.

[Hammersmith]

What I think is interesting about the counting of "tri-college" students is that I remember a few years ago when on the news an official at MSU-M (yes I know this is vague, but I honestly don't remember the title or name of the person) spoke out about how NDSU counts the "tri-college" enrollments. He was pretty much stating that NDSU gets all these accolades for growing enrollment, biggest college in F-M area, etc, when so many of the students were only taking 1 class from NDSU and paying all of their tuition and fees to MSU-M and Concordia. Apparently (talking to people I know that work in higher ed in the F-M area) it caused a big uproar, and the story was pulled from the 10:00 news.

I will admit that I could be wrong, but I was told that only if a student paid a certain amount of student fees could they be included in UND's enrollment, so most of the correspondence students aren't included, only the ones that are taking a high enough number of credits to pay the student fee dollars. If UND did count every singe correspondence student, the enrollment would be much, much higher.

My guess on the info reported to the OPE, one person reported it wrong, and the next person "just did what was done before", inadvertantly continuing the error.

That sounded right, so I was going to backpedal from my earlier position until I decided to check out the SBoHE guidelines for reporting enrollment in detail(I have always wanted to, but never gotten around to it. I'm real fun at parties, too.). Back in 2001, the SBoHE decided to change the NDUS guidelines to match National IPEDS enrollment reporting. It was this decision that caused Tri-College and correspondence students to become part of the total headcount, if they were working towards degrees. For example, in 2006 UND reported a total headcount of 12,834. Of those, 2,002 were enrolled in some form of distance learning for degree. Since the face to face on campus total for UND was 11,630, it looks like there was some duplication, though the report used conservative counting methods so there may have been more total students than reported. The fact is, if you're even taking a single credit, you are part of the total headcount as long as you're working towards a degree(albeit very slowly working).

Here's UND's Fall 2006 breakdown for any other geeks out there. (DE = Distance Education)

10,376 - Undergraduate Headcount Enrollment

1,978 - Graduate Headcount Enrollment

480 - Professional Headcount Enrollment

12,834 - Total Headcount Enrollment

531 - Face To Face Off Campus(UND Fargo Center, etc.)

250 - Corresponence

1,399 - E-Learning

2,180 - Duplicated DE Total

2,002 - Unduplicated DE Total

11,630 - Face To Face On Campus

13,632 - DE & On Campus Duplicated Totals

12,831 - Unduplicated DE & On Campus Total

3 - Non-Degree Credit Enrollments

12,834 - Campus Total

10,460 - Full Time Students

898 - FTE Enrollments of Part Time Students

11,381 - Total FTE Enrollment

Fall Enrollment Report 2006.pdf

[Rick]

So, if a student is enrolled at Concordia as a full-time student and pays their tuition to Concordia, but takes one class at MSU-M and takes one class at NDSU, all three schools count the student on their official enrollment numbers? Or, if a student is enrolled at MSU-M with 15 credits and takes a 2 credit gym class at NDSU, both schools count that student in their official enrollment? Does MSU-M and Concordia count students who are taking 15 credits at NDSU and only one class in Moorhead on their official enrollment numbers? How about a Technical College student in Moorhead? Why wouldn't NDSU include a Tech College student if he/she came over to Fargo and took a class......or do they? This almost sounds like Enron accounting to me.

[Hammersmith]

So, if a student is enrolled at Concordia as a full-time student and pays their tuition to Concordia, but takes one class at MSU-M and takes one class at NDSU, all three schools count the student on their official enrollment numbers? Or, if a student is enrolled at MSU-M with 15 credits and takes a 2 credit gym class at NDSU, both schools count that student in their official enrollment? Does MSU-M and Concordia count students who are taking 15 credits at NDSU and only one class in Moorhead on their official enrollment numbers? How about a Technical College student in Moorhead? Why wouldn't NDSU include a Tech College student if he/she came over to Fargo and took a class......or do they? This almost sounds like Enron accounting to me.

Well, there are some restrictions on what classes can be taken where by whom*, but I don't see the big deal; this is what headcount enrollments are. If you've ever heard a president or provost say that headcounts don't mean that much, this is why. A headcount counts every unique student that takes even one class for credit. The figure that you use when you want to really compare campuses is full time equivalents(FTE). That figure tells you how much instruction is actually going on.

To give you a real world example, I've got a friend who was affected by the Imation decision to close down the Wahpeton plant. She got her associate's degree from NDSCS several years back, and is now getting her bachelor's through the NDUS system to make herself more attractive to employers. Dickinson State is considered her home campus(it's what her diploma will say), but, because of the way the SBoHE has set up the E-Learning system, she will probably take classes from at least nine of the NDUS campuses by the time she's done. This fall, I believe she's taking courses from DSU, Minot State and UND. Because she's taking the classes for credit and they count towards a degree, she's counted by each institution as part of their respective headcounts. However, she's only counted once when totaling up the headcount of the entire NDUS.

Back to the real topic, it looks like UND spent $25,168 per athlete last year. SDSU spent $14,707; USD $16,433; UNO $23,978; NDSU $29,059; UNI $31,310; U of MN $59,655. What does any of that mean? I have no idea. I'm just trying to get the topic back on track.

*Restrictions: The Tri-College system includes only NDSU, MSUM and CC. NDSU & MSUM students may take only one class per semester at CC and only if they are full time students and the class isn't offered at their home campuses. CC students may take only one class per semester at either NDSU or MSUM and only if they are a full time student and that class isn't offered at CC. No limits are placed between NDSU and MSUM on numbers of classes taken per semester or the student's full time or part time status. If the class you want to take at another campus is required for your major, you must get approval from your department. Courses that require special fees or special enrollment procedures, NDSU Continuing Ed programs, off campus or weekend classes from MSUM's Continuing Ed program, most workshops, and independant study and private music instruction at CC are all ineligible for Tri-College registration.

One of the cool things about the system is the option to get a minor not offered at your home campus. A NDSU music major could get a string minor from MSUM, or a CC biology major might get a crop and weed science minor from NDSU. One of the kinda weird aspects of the system can occur between NDSU & MSUM. In some programs, you can enroll at one of the univerities, take almost all of your courses at the other, and then transfer after your third year and finish at the other campus. Six NDSU programs and ten MSUM programs can be done this way.

More than you ever wanted to know.

[Rick]

More than you ever wanted to know.

Not really, but what I really wanted to know is........How many students does this add to NDSU's enrollment numbers? How many students does this add to MSU-M's enrollment numbers? How many students does this add to CC's enrollment numbers? Does MSU-M count the same way as NDSU? Does CC count the same as NDSU?

[Hammersmith]

Not really, but what I really wanted to know is........How many students does this add to NDSU's enrollment numbers? How many students does this add to MSU-M's enrollment numbers? How many students does this add to CC's enrollment numbers? Does MSU-M count the same way as NDSU? Does CC count the same as NDSU?

I searched for the info, but couldn't find it anywhere on the web. Since NDSU follows the NDUS reporting guidelines which are based off the national IPEDS, I compared the headcounts reported on each schools' website to the headcount on the IPEDS website(all Fall '06). NDSU and CC report the same number in both places, while MSUM reports a lower number on their website than they do to IPEDS. It's possible that the reporting system the state of Minnesota uses is more conservative than IPEDS; that's only a guess, though. Where the Tri-College students fit into it all, I have no idea. As for the numbers of individual students involved, I'd be surprised if the numbers of MSUM & CC students taking classes at NDSU reach beyond the low hundreds. If anyone can find a site with hard numbers, I'd love to see it. My curiosity has been piqued(at least for a few days).

[Cratter]

I'd love to see it. My curiosity has been piqued(at least for a few days).

No offense, but you sound really nerdy.

[Hammersmith]

No offense, but you sound really nerdy.

I prefer the term geeky, but I'll answer to both.

I've come to grips with my many levels of geekness and have embraced it as a lifestyle.

Doesn't help much with the ladies, though.

EDIT: In the spirit of teh geekness... Cal Band Great!

Cal Band Halftime Show 11/3/07 (Good angle, but upside down)

Same show, different angle(You can see the mascots fight)

Just the music

[Cratter]

I prefer the term geeky, but I'll answer to both.

I've come to grips with my many levels of geekness and have embraced it as a lifestyle.

Doesn't help much with the ladies, though.

At least you don't fight it.

Everyone here is somewhat geeky....it is after all now becoming hip.

[Yote 53]

University of South Dakota

Enrollment : 4,352

Expenses : $5,800,978

Revenues : $5,800,978

Not sure where you got those figures. Excerpts from a recent article:

http://www.yankton.net/stories/092806/news_20060928023.shtml

The University of South Dakota has seen its enrollment climb 1.22 percent, to 8,746 for the fall semester, as part of record enrollment at the state's six state-owned universities.

"We need to be bigger and better. As the flagship university of South Dakota, we need enrollment of 10,000 to 11,000 students," he said. "It's a challenge to raise admission standards in a state where you have a falling number of high school students."

[SiouxMD]

University of South Dakota

Enrollment : 4,352

Expenses : $5,800,978

Revenues : $5,800,978

Not sure where you got those figures. Excerpts from a recent article:

http://www.yankton.net/stories/092806/news_20060928023.shtml

The University of South Dakota has seen its enrollment climb 1.22 percent, to 8,746 for the fall semester, as part of record enrollment at the state's six state-owned universities.

"We need to be bigger and better. As the flagship university of South Dakota, we need enrollment of 10,000 to 11,000 students," he said. "It's a challenge to raise admission standards in a state where you have a falling number of high school students."

SOURCE

[GeauxSioux]

With UND's budget at over $11M as a Division II school in the 2006-2007 year, where do you think the budget will be in the 2008-2009 year as Division I school??

[bincitysioux]

With UND's budget at over $11M as a Division II school in the 2006-2007 year, where do you think the budget will be in the 2008-2009 year as Division I school??

Carr said our budget needs to be in the ~$18 Million-ish range for DI. Over the last 4-5 years it seems like the budget has went up about 1 million each year. An annual increase of $1.5 Million each year over the next 4 years would put us into the ballpark of where Carr says we should be when the transition is over. I'd expect the budget to be around $13 Million in 2008-09.

[GeauxSioux]

UND's budget data for year ending 06-30-08

Grand Total Revenues $12,700,648

Grand Total Expenses $12,645,629

Institutional Data for UND

In this day and age it is good to see black ink rather than the red that is bleeding across the country. Keep it going Sioux.

[jimdahl]

UND's budget data for year ending 06-30-08

Grand Total Revenues $12,700,648

Grand Total Expenses $12,645,629

Institutional Data for UND

In this day and age it is good to see black ink rather than the red that is bleeding across the country. Keep it going Sioux.

Nice to see that the budget is growing at the rate the consultants said would be needed for the transition. The numbers can always be made to reconcile at the end of the year, but I also haven't heard much yet about significant budget pressure (though haven't exactly had my ear to the ground, either).

[GeauxSioux]

Dragging up an old thread with new data from OEP site.

Expenses $ 16,784,688

Revenues $ 16,945,635

Revenue Total $ 160,947

Go Sioux!!

[mikejm]

I just got off the phone with the Alumni Association; looking for $3.5 million for athletic scholarships.

"Thanks," they said, "for your continuing support of UND athletics. Can we count on you today for another $500?"

I couldn't help them today.

[GeauxSioux]

Since everything today seems to be comparing the Dakota schools and conferences here are the most recent budgets on the OPE site

UND $ 16,784,688.00 2010 data

NDSU $ 14,261,707.00 2010 data

SDSU $ 11,923,267.00 2010 data

USD $ 7,159,168.00 2009 data

[PhillySioux]

It also appears we have the largest athletic budget of any core Big Sky member.

[Stinger_UND]

Since everything today seems to be comparing the Dakota schools and conferences here are the most recent budgets on the OPE site

UND $ 16,784,688.00 2010 data

NDSU $ 14,261,707.00 2010 data

SDSU $ 11,923,267.00 2010 data

USD $ 7,159,168.00 2009 data

Why does UND and Montana have the exact same numbers of everything listed?

Edit: Weird. the page showed University of Montana, but I redid it to check. Now it's fine.

[SooToo]

Since everything today seems to be comparing the Dakota schools and conferences here are the most recent budgets on the OPE site

UND $ 16,784,688.00 2010 data

NDSU $ 14,261,707.00 2010 data

SDSU $ 11,923,267.00 2010 data

USD $ 7,159,168.00 2009 data

Ouch. Easy to see now why USD was working so desparately to get into the regional bus league; coulda been a lot of long hours on the hound to eastern washington or northern arizona.

[Cratter]

We all know those numbers aren't apples to apples comparison. Take UND Hockey out of those numbers and UND is probably between USD and SDSU.

Athletic Budget isn't operating profit. UND could still be losing money every year while its possible USD has a small budget yet is turning a profit.