sioux89 Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 PS- Good luck finding a new AD under the current reporting structure and the manner in which the last firing was handled... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxMeNow Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 Not that I am a fan of Buning or Harmeson, but you need to seriously sit back and reconsider your thoughts on Phil Harmeson. Just because someone is a FAR doesn't mean they are qualified to run an athletic department anymore than a city councilperson is qualified to be a the city police chief. The FAR by definition is a representative of the faculty of a university to assist with the athletic component of an institution. They are there to give justification to an athletic department and legitimize the academics that are occuring but they are not to run an athletic department. The point being, that a "real FAR" doesn't deal with athletic issues such as staffing and contracts but rather serves at the pleasure of a president to represent the academic side of an institution. An FAR should never, under any circumstances be involved in personnel issues with staffing... Secondly, the NCAA is going to frown upon a VP being appointed between the AD and the president. That does go against the intent of the process. That being said, in many institutions the AD is designated a VP or sits at that same level of institutional managment. Refer to Arizona State University for an example... That being said, UND handled this whole thing horribly. AD's get fired everyday around the country. Very rarely does it make the NACDA report due to the manner in which it is handled. The fact the UND had to send out a letter to Division I institutions in the country about the problems occuring and how they are still progressing towards Div. I so please schedule us is a testimate to how poorly it was handled. That, unfortunately, is PAR for the course for UND... MEMO to PH: I wouldn't waste a lot of time updating your resume for the UND Presidents job... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sioux89 Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 He couldn't beat out Dean Smith anyway... or should I say Dr. Smith...? no JD... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 That being said, UND handled this whole thing horribly. AD's get fired everyday around the country. Very rarely does it make the NACDA report due to the manner in which it is handled. The fact the UND had to send out a letter to Division I institutions in the country about the problems occuring and how they are still progressing towards Div. I so please schedule us is a testimate to how poorly it was handled. That, unfortunately, is PAR for the course for UND... A.D.'s are fired often, and I strongly suspect that in many of those cases, they are first given the choice of resigning, to save face, or being fired. But how many of those A.D.'s choose neither, and instead take a "leave of absence" to delay the process? Should that reflect poorly on the school, or the individual? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 PS- Good luck finding a new AD under the current reporting structure and the manner in which the last firing was handled... I highly doubt a new a.d. will be hired until a new president is in place, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted October 13, 2007 Author Share Posted October 13, 2007 Not that I am a fan of Buning or Harmeson, but you need to seriously sit back and reconsider your thoughts on Phil Harmeson. Just because someone is a FAR doesn't mean they are qualified to run an athletic department anymore than a city councilperson is qualified to be a the city police chief. I don't think that was Sicatoka's point. Harmeson, was not only the FAR, he's was also the interim AD and has been UND's WCHA representative for many years. In other words, he knows a great deal more about athletics and the athletic department than probably any other UND VP. Secondly, the NCAA is going to frown upon a VP being appointed between the AD and the president. Once again, what happened is being misrepresented. Buning served for two years directly reporting to the president. Only after requests came from within the department for the administration to take a more hands-on approach was Harmeson put in charge of Buning. It was a change made to deal with the special circumstances of the situation. It wasn't standard operating procedure at UND. That being said, UND handled this whole thing horribly. I don't disagree with that. But there's a whole lot of blame that could be spread around for why it turned into the mess is became. And it's not all inside the walls of Twamley Hall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakotadan Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 Honest question. Many are blaming the administration and many others are blaming Buning for draging this out. At any point before the "official firing announcement to Buning" did the administration ever sit him down and say things aren't going as well as they would like them to be and give him a chance to work them out with the coaches and administration in the atheltic department? If not, blame Buning all you want for taking the leave of absence, but what did the administration do to help? Honest question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted October 14, 2007 Author Share Posted October 14, 2007 At any point before the "official firing announcement to Buning" did the administration ever sit him down and say things aren't going as well as they would like them to be and give him a chance to work them out with the coaches and administration in the atheltic department? I believe that falls under the category of letting people do their jobs. Clearly, some couldn't wait to see Buning out as soon as possible. That's one reason this turned into train wreck when it didn't have to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux-per Fan Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 just keeps getting better..... http://www.grandforksherald.com/articles/i...mp;section=News Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxMeNow Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 yeah...let's keep dragging this whole thing out... WHAT! A briefcase full of cash wasn't good enough for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeauxSioux Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 "He's asserted an extension for another two to four weeks," Harmeson said. Harmeson said he was notified by Julie Evans, UND general counsel, that the school had received a document late in the week regarding the extension. Buning asserted the leave through federal law, Harmeson said. "It's not a request," Harmeson said. "We have no ability to deny or allow it." Okay, all you legal minds out there, what kind of a LOA extension cannot be denied by federal law? Is this Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siouxman Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 I believe that falls under the category of letting people do their jobs. Clearly, some couldn't wait to see Buning out as soon as possible. That's one reason this turned into train wreck when it didn't have to be. IIRC Buning was talked to about the items that needed to be corrected. Hence his letter, which became public, pointing out where he felt progress had been made on those items. So yes, he was notified of shortcomings and obviously given some specifics. As former military, I am guessing that Buning likely had trouble adjusting from the military position of authority, where decisions are automatically responded to and carried out under threat of military law (courtmartial for failure to obey a command) to a civilian role where such absolute authority rarely exists. Some officers make the transition well and some do not. Whatever the situation we are not going to ever know the entire story as these personnel issues are covered by federal law. Even if the employee chooses to make things public we will never know whether those are the truth or not because the employer cannot make things public. At this point it sounds as if Buning is going to carry this out for some time, claiming some leave rights under federal law which can cover anything from maternity leave to other family medical situations or health issues). Standby for updates later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Okay, all you legal minds out there, what kind of a LOA extension cannot be denied by federal law? Is this Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA)? Yes, I'm quite sure this is FMLA leave. Of course, that means this is an unpaid leave, except to the extent he had accrued vacation or sick days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxMeNow Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Yes, I'm quite sure this is FMLA leave. Of course, that means this is an unpaid leave, except to the extent he had accrued vacation or sick days. Is there any requirement to provide some sort of "proof" to qualify for a FMLA extension and would that be a public record? Or would that be considered private information too? I understand you wouldn't have to go into specifics but, knowing how the federal government works, they would require at least a general "reason" why you can't go back to work to qualify for program coverage. Just asking... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Is there any requirement to provide some sort of "proof" to qualify for a FMLA extension and would that be a public record? Or would that be considered private information too? I understand you wouldn't have to go into specifics but, knowing how the federal government works, they would require at least a general "reason" why you can't go back to work to qualify for program coverage. Just asking... It wouldn't be public record, but the employer can request medical certification that the "serious health condition" for which the leave is taken actually exists: Q: Do I have to give my employer my medical records for leave due to a serious health condition? No. You do not have to provide medical records. The employer may, however, request that, for any leave taken due to a serious health condition, you provide a medical certification confirming that a serious health condition exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 The only guy (Buning) who can talk right now .... isn't. Why not? I'd guess that he thinks he's better off with speculation, wonder, and finger-pointing at people who are just doing their jobs (and prevented from talking by state and federal law) than he'd be if he sat down with the media and told the story. He has to know that not saying anything is jamming up all of UND. He must mean to do it (because that's not smart to do to your boss, any boss). So whatever this is must be worse for him than jamming up the people who pay him. That's the only explanation that makes any sense. That works well for the short-term, but what's that going to do for him long-term? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux-per Fan Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 Others Universities seem to be able to fire their AD why can't UND..... http://www.journalstar.com/huskerextra/foo...87196520867.txt I'm guessing there will be no LOA in Huskerville...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7NationalTitles Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 Others Universities seem to be able to fire their AD why can't UND..... http://www.journalstar.com/huskerextra/foo...87196520867.txt I'm guessing there will be no LOA in Huskerville...? Huskerville doesn't have an ass like Buning though. Buning could have taken the high road with Dennis Green (sarcasm) but chose in the end to be an ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 The only guy (Buning) who can talk right now .... isn't. Why not? I'd guess that he thinks he's better off with speculation, wonder, and finger-pointing at people who are just doing their jobs (and prevented from talking by state and federal law) than he'd be if he sat down with the media and told the story. He has to know that not saying anything is jamming up all of UND. He must mean to do it (because that's not smart to do to your boss, any boss). So whatever this is must be worse for him than jamming up the people who pay him. That's the only explanation that makes any sense. That works well for the short-term, but what's that going to do for him long-term? If one believes that Buning was already told either he could resign or be fired, then taking UNPAID leave makes no sense whatsoever. It accomplishes nothing positive. If Buning truly has a "serious medical condition," then he has my sympathy, but the reality is that it makes no difference in terms of his soon-to-be-former job. If you have no job to return to, what sense is there in taking FMLA leave, other than a futile and misguided attempt to "explore your legal options"? Why would his options be any different after the firing/resignation than before? In my opinion, there would be no difference. I think there's good reason few if any people have heard of a situation quite like this before. Because 99.9% of employees would see what a futile and pointless gesture this is, and wouldn't do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted October 16, 2007 Author Share Posted October 16, 2007 If you have no job to return to, what sense is there in taking FMLA leave, other than a futile and misguided attempt to "explore your legal options"? You might think that Buning exploring his legal options is "futile and misguided." I could see an attorney thinking otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 You might think that Buning exploring his legal options is "futile and misguided." I could see an attorney thinking otherwise. The "futile and misguided" part is thinking that you have to delay a firing, or else you may lose some of your rights in some sort of a wrongful termination action. Not true. I was not commenting on whether Buning actually has a cause of action (although I don't think he does). I'm simply commenting on the wisdom, or lack thereof, of using the FMLA in this manner. If this was such a great idea, don't you think that it would happen more often in situations where somebody is given the choice of resigning or being fired? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted October 16, 2007 Author Share Posted October 16, 2007 If this was such a great idea, don't you think that it would happen more often in situations where somebody is given the choice of resigning or being fired? I don't know enough to determine whether it was a great idea. All I can do is assume that somebody with expertise in these matters believes that there's some advantage to going this route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 I don't know enough to determine whether it was a great idea. All I can do is assume that somebody with expertise in these matters believes that there's some advantage to going this route. Just because somebody--whether Buning or an attorney--came up with the idea, doesn't make it a good one. I can't guarantee that I'm right, but I do have some experience in this area. And my opinion is, unless Buning somehow thinks he can argue his way back into his job, there is no advantage to delaying the inevitable. Any wrongful termination or breach of contract action is not going to be substantially affected by delaying the firing. I'm confident Phil Harmeson and the UND general counsel would agree with my assessment, or else they wouldn't have (allegedly) given Buning a couple of days to decide whether to resign or be fired. I'm willing to bet that they didn't foresee this happening, precisely because it makes no sense for somebody to do. In the end, we'll probably never really know what the theory was behind this course of action Buning has taken, because it's likely going to end with a resignation and a nice check (which he would have gotten regardless). But a lot of bridges will have been unnecessarily burned, and it may cost Buning any chance he had to work in college athletics administration again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND Fan Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 If one believes that Buning was already told either he could resign or be fired, then taking UNPAID leave makes no sense whatsoever. It accomplishes nothing positive. If Buning truly has a "serious medical condition," then he has my sympathy, but the reality is that it makes no difference in terms of his soon-to-be-former job. If you have no job to return to, what sense is there in taking FMLA leave, other than a futile and misguided attempt to "explore your legal options"? Why would his options be any different after the firing/resignation than before? In my opinion, there would be no difference. I think there's good reason few if any people have heard of a situation quite like this before. Because 99.9% of employees would see what a futile gesture this is, and wouldn't do it. I fully agree with your comments. I certainly hope there is no medical issue but I am 99% sure there is not. The only possible reason for the leave is to "punish" the University for asking him to resign/firing him. He would know that this continuing saga provides both poor PR for UND but may also hamper the search for his replacement. Being on leave certainly doesn't enhance his ability to bring suit if that is the direction he is going! I would also think it wouldn't enhance his opportunity to find another good job! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 do most of you watch soap operas too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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