Negotiated Settlement?

[mksioux]

Based on my read so far I agree, as I said a few times yesterday, both in this thread and on the blog. This settlement was a clear signal from UND that they knew the only possible outcomes (without sanctions) were tribal approval or changing the name. Given that, this settlement bought 3 years, a clear definition of tribal approval, concessions on logos in REA, and getting off the NCAA's enemy list; all I can see that N.D. really gave up in return was the right to further expensive lawsuits that they knew wouldn't accomplish anything.

I agree. It was incorrect to think that UND winning this lawsuit would be an outright victory for UND. UND could have won the battle, but it still would have lost the war. There is no way that the NCAA would have simply given up. This policy was going to be legislatively enacted in the bylaws if the court case succeeded. In fact, it turns out that the NCAA wasn't even going to wait until they lost in court. The wheels were already in motion to amend the bylaws (no doubt adding leverage in settlement negotiations). Anyone who thought that the NCAA members would have sided with UND and voted down the amended bylaws was mistaken.

[mksioux]

[*]2d requires UND to adopt a new nickname and logo, not just drop the old. Why?

This is by far the most troubling aspect of the settlement to me. I am dead set against a contrived nickname and logo, even if voted on by the UND stakeholders. That may be fine for other schools, but it is not fine for a state flagship. State flagships nicknames should have meaning to the State and should develop over time. I wish the settlement would have only required we drop the nickname and logo. Then UND would have gone without a nickname for a few years until one developed naturally. I'm going to have a real hard time getting behind some new-age contrived generic nickname like Fury or <color> Hawks. Yuck.

[HockeyMom]

I'm interested to see how all if this is going to play out.....

EDITED TO ADD:

The voice in my head keeps saying "be careful what you wish for, you just may get it."

[mksioux]

From the Herald editorial

Second, nickname supporters should know that Stenehjem also said another very important thing on Friday: He said that letting fly with racist insults and angry threats, anonymous or otherwise, to cut Indian programs absolutely decimates the pro-nickname cause.

The settlement puts the power to rule on the Fighting Sioux nickname back in the hands where it belongs: those of the Sioux people. There is only one way Sioux tribal leaders ever will choose to let UND keep the nickname, and that is if they are persuaded to do so.

Every threat, every insult and every show of raw bigotry, even in anonymous Web comments, embitters tribal members and leaders alike and makes winning the tribe's permission much less likely.

It hurts the nickname supporters' cause terribly, in other words. And if those supporters wise up about that consequence, they'll stop.

For those that want to work with the tribes and keep the nickname, keep this in mind. You can bet that anti-nickname activists will start a list copying some of these posts on this website and will bring them to the reservation to "show" the tribe what "we" all think of "them".

[Matt]

However, Ron His Horse is Thunder, chairman of the Standing Rock tribe, said he and Pearson were shown the proposed agreement, and both expressed their disapproval.

[HockeyMom]

[dagies]

From the Herald editorial

For those that want to work with the tribes and keep the nickname, keep this in mind. You can bet that anti-nickname activists will start a list copying some of these posts on this website and will bring them to the reservation to "show" the tribe what "we" all think of "them".

I didn't think you emphasized this enough.

[The Whistler]

I didn't think you emphasized this enough.

Leave it to the Herald Stenejhem to call everyone else racist.

I say give the tribes a once chance and if they say no then drop the name. The fact is that the lawsuit should not have been solely about the fact that the NCAA ignored their own rules. It should also have dealt with the the fact that the name was not hostile and abusive and the NCAA was acting capriciously.

I talked to a lawyer about that (a lawyer with a far better record of private practice than Stenejhem) and he thought it was a good case. (That was my work, but names got changed in an upgrade a year ago.)

I would think that the fact that ignored their bylaws would help us make the case that they were acting capriciously in the whole matter.

We had every expectation of a fair trial. If we lost it then we could move on. Giving up is the wrong way to go.

[SiouxCrioux1]

Leave it to the Herald Stenejhem to call everyone else racist.

I say give the tribes a once chance and if they say no then drop the name. The fact is that the lawsuit should not have been solely about the fact that the NCAA ignored their own rules. It should also have dealt with the the fact that the name was not hostile and abusive and the NCAA was acting capriciously.

I talked to a lawyer about that (a lawyer with a far better record of private practice than Stenejhem) and he thought it was a good case. (That was my work, but names got changed in an upgrade a year ago.)

I would think that the fact that ignored their bylaws would help us make the case that they were acting capriciously in the whole matter.

We had every expectation of a fair trial. If we lost it then we could move on. Giving up is the wrong way to go.

I didnt give up Stenejhem did it for me.

[The Whistler]

I didnt give up Stenejhem did it for me.

I should have been clearer. Our elected and governor appointed leaders shouldn't have given up.

[SiouxCrioux1]

I should have been clearer. Our elected and governor appointed leaders shouldn't have given up.

Thank You. My thoughts exactly.

[jimdahl]

I didn't think you emphasized this enough.

Frankly, this should probably be posted in a new thread and pinned as an entreaty to people to post sensibly. It's my recollection that in his activist days, GK would intentionally bait people on this message board and then bring printouts of their responses to Indian leaders as evidence of what we're like.

[Shawn-O]

If we're talking about tip-toeing around on a message board to find words that might not offend the right people....well, I'd say the writing is on the wall. Let's move onward and forward.

[The Sicatoka]

I would initiate plans to change the name or simply drop the name effective next school year. If one or more of the tribes wish the privilage and recognition that goes along with being associated with UND athletics then let them request the privilage and UND can decide if they are honorable enough to continue the name.. If they don't, I wouldn't approach them. They have chosen to no longer associate their history with UND and I would simply say too bad for you and ignore them. No protests, no harrassments, no special programs but make sure they are treated with the same fairness and respect as any other of our students or our states citizens. Some day they may regret the decision but who cares? It is their choice now. Their leaders seem to want to polarize their people and kids and so I would say good luck and you are welcome to go to school here, all you need is and ACT of 23(or whatever it is) and a GPA of 2.5 (or whatever it is). You will not be placed on committees or given places of honor that you don't earn with your own deeds, same as anyone else. They are not to be mistreated harrassed or in anyway treated differently.

Many of them will say agreed and many of them will say wait a minute, that isn't what we want. My answer is that of today your leaders have decided you no longer wish to hold a place of honor and respect at UND based on your history. It was a great run, but good luck. We will get on with the next chapter of a storied and proud heritage at UND without you. I am a big supporter of the name and the great logo but I wouldn't be willing to prostitute the University and especially Fighting Sioux atheltics to a group of people who are not interested in continuing this relationship. It is a bit like the guy whose wife has been visiting all of the other guys in the neighborhood while he works the night shift and still thinks he can make it work.

Agreed.

[jimdahl]

If we're talking about tip-toeing around on a message board to find words that might not offend the right people....well, I'd say the writing is on the wall. Let's move onward and forward.

I felt that way years ago when people were getting upset about things like Sioux-per dogs and anti-Sioux chants from opponents. I felt that if a nickname was acceptable, it could be used in ways nicknames are used. That we were starting to have to tiptoe around our use of the name was similar "writing on the wall" to me.

That said, I would hope posting respectfully about other people doesn't actually require "tip-toeing" for most of our members. I do think it worth repeating when the State Attorney General urges us all to remember that anonymous Internet postings do get read by all parties.

I'm actually pretty pleased with, and impressed by, the general civility of the discussion here in the last day or two. Particularly given the widely varying opinions and reactions to current events. I dove into the comments on the Herald site yesterday and remembered why we require registration and moderate.

On an unrelated note -- dittos to Sicatoka and iramurphy on the above post.

[PCM]

When Stenehjem said that UND might win the battle but lose the war with the NCAA, I'm sure he was getting some good input about how likely it was that the NCAA would do what it said it was going to do. UND believed all along that the lawsuit was winnable. Stenehjem said yesterday that it was winnable. The NCAA must also have thought there was a good chance we'd win, otherwise I can't see us getting any concessions at all from them.

So it became a question of what we would win if we won and what it would mean to the future. Stenehjem believed that we wouldn't be any further ahead than we were before the lawsuit. I think he's right.

So I think the emphasis changed to settling the nickname issue once and for all in a reasonable time period without interference from the NCAA. We got that, and it's something that no other school got. And if any of the tribes with resolutions currently supporting Florida State, Central Michigan, Utah, Mississippi College or Catawba change their minds, it's something that they won't get.

[PCM]

I see where the tribal leadership at both Standing Rock and Spirit Lake have already said their earlier positions won't change.

What, exactly, is Spirit Lake's position? Is it the last official action its tribal council took, which appears to support UND, or is it Pearson's interpretation of what the resolution means, which is neither yea or nea?

Edited October 27, 2007 by PCM

[The Sicatoka]

What, exactly, is Spirit Lake's position?

Depends. Who'd Myra Pearson last talk to?

We can't live like that.

[star2city]

The Fargo Forum is pushing this NDSU PhD dissertation from its School of Communication as a barometer of what could happen to UND.

NDSU Dissertation on Colleges that discontinue use of Indian logos

The data used is so full of holes that it's an embarassment to the state's education system. For example of its many shortcomings: his data analysis doesn't take into account that Syracuse opened the Carrier Dome shortly after they dropped their "Saltine Warrior" mascot (the nickname then remained Orangemen), so attendance went up tremendously because of a new venue (moved from 26,000 seat Archibold stadium to a 50,000 seat Carrier dome). Wouldn't at least one of his advisors be competent and savy enough to recognize such a blatant error?

It also wails on the morality of Indian nicknames, but never gives an underlying basis for that morality except "feelings" and "being offended".

[Dak]

Depends. Who'd Myra Pearson last talk to?

We can't live like that.

I believe most Native Americans support the name. I just don't see those people standing up and saying its ok. I hope and pray we get to keep the name but The Standing Rock Sioux Reservation is the biggest stepping stone.

I wish they would do an entire reservation vote on the issue. Say: I know you may not have strong feeling or don't want to go public but lets take a vote so eveyone knows how the PEOPLE on the Sioux nation really feels. Not the views of the council members. If they want to keep it i would hope the council would vote in-support of the people. IF they vote no..... Drop the name like a sack of rocks....move on.....

I just think the tribal governments would fear this vote. One vote and then be done with it.

[UND92,96]

Agreed.

I agree also.

[Hayduke]

The fact is the large Native Studies progams at the University of North Dakota wouldn't have grown to what they are without the use of the Fighting Sioux nickname. Face it. They grew out of pressure from the use of the nickname. That was a good thing for the tribal leadership. Now, they're going to blow it.

Now, UND is going to be forced to change the nickname. They're won't be any agreement with any of the tribes that the NCAA is going to see as good enough to keep the nickname. Even if there is, the tribe that sets up the agreement could pull the rug out at any time. With the instability of the tribal leadership, they would eventually pull the rug to make some odd political point.

So, UND will change it's nickname after making some attempts at an agreement. The tribes will no longer have that cloud hanging over UND that allows to increasing funding to their pet programs. It's a lose/lose situation.

In the meantime, I'm going to buy enough Fighting Sioux merchandise with the coolest logo in all of college sports to last me for a long time. In five, ten, twenty years, when it's the UND Storm, or Calvary, or Fighting Chipmunks, or whatever, I'll go to the games and cheer them while wearing the good ol' hostile and abusive logo.

[star2city]

UND would have won this lawsuit. And then what? I've been saying for months, that the NCAA would simply enact the legislation the proper way. We have a politically incorrect nickname in the cultural marxist world of "higher learning". Putting our faith in the collective "wisdom" of college Presidents would not have gotten us anywhere. This lawsuit, while it was necessary due to the immediate time constraints, was not going to get us permanently off the NCAA's list, and it certainly wasn't going to decide the fate of the Fighting Sioux nickname. Politically speaking, the Fighting Sioux nickname can not be sustained without tribal support. We may disagree with that and claim that the tribes do not own the name, which is true, but it is hard to deny that is the political reality in the times in which we live.

I've been saying for a few months now that I hate the fact that the Fighting Sioux nickname empowers people that do not deserve to be empowered. And while the historical Sioux people may be deserving of honor, the current Sioux leadership certainly is not. If I never have to care about the opinions of Ron His Horse is Thunder or David Gipp or Myra Pearson, etc. ever again, I'll be a happier person. The tribal leadership has made it abundantly clear that they do not want to partner with UND and turn the nickname into a positive like other tribes have done. Fine. Let's grant them their wish and let them live with their decision.

Unfortunately, agree with this position.

The new President should initiate discussions of what the new nickname should be. However, two of most appropriate names, Roughriders (it is the Roughrider state) and the Cavalry, wil be vehemently opposed by the same PC profs that opposed the Fighting Sioux name on account of Roughrider and Cavalry being too militant, non-inclusive, oppressive, and inappropriate for women's teams. The whole political correctness issue still has to be dealt with, otherwise we'll end up with a nickname like the Greendoves.

[larsensa]

If we can't be Indians, let's be cowboys! I am guessing a larger percentage of the UND population can relate more to the cowboys than Indians anyway unless something has changed since I was at UND? I bet cowboys would be honored and could give a crap if we have a team named after them. I hope we go with North Dakota Rough Riders!

The women's sports teams might not like being called Rough Riders though. They might get taunted by opposing teams with offensive gestures? Based on some of the comments Sioux-cia and Hockey mom make to each other on this board, it seems they would probably come up with some interesting new Rough Rider cheers?

[gjw007]

Don't you think that if the nickname was changed to Cavalry, Roughriders, or Cowboys people would see this as an attack against the Sioux as the numerous incidents that occurred in the past and as a backlash against the opponents of the Sioux name although I think Roughriders in more associated against the Spanish (Hispanics) than the Sioux? Ultimately these will be judged just as offensive if the same standard is used.