ScottM Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Which is what you did, quite effectively. But to say that North Dakota quit and got nothing isn't reasonable because it's not true. What did North Dakota "get", really? It got out of litigation, that it probably would have won, always a "brilliant" tactic. (I must have missed that day at law school.) It got bent over a barrel for a bunch of disinterested and/or hostile constituents, in and out of the state. It got itself pushed around by an entity that abused its own rules and processes. It took what is arguably protected speech and turned it into a joke that can be trotted out at someone else's offense in the future. I love the way you're shilling this settlement. Did Wayne promise to make you his media aide if he runs for the Big Chair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 I love the way you're shilling this settlement. Did Wayne promise to make you his media aide if he runs for the Big Chair? Yep. That's it, Scott. You got me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Whistler Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 The old "pretend to know everything" technique is quite effective, too. Pretend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Pretend? So you were in all the meetings at which the settlement was discussed? Please feel free to fill us in on the details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Yep. That's it, Scott. You got me. Just cynical, jet lagged me. I'll send you some sand from Bermuda this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Whistler Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 So you were in all the meetings at which the settlement was discussed? Please feel free to fill us in on the details. Perhaps you missed the smileys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 What did North Dakota "get", really? It got out of litigation, that it probably would have won, always a "brilliant" tactic. (I must have missed that day at law school.) It got bent over a barrel for a bunch of disinterested and/or hostile constituents, in and out of the state. It got itself pushed around by an entity that abused its own rules and processes. It took what is arguably protected speech and turned it into a joke that can be trotted out at someone else's offense in the future. I've already outlined what UND got. I'm not going to repeat myself. Once again, Scott, what part of "change in public policy" don't you get? Goetz's statment Friday was a clear signal that, for whatever reason, the decision on how to proceed wasn't strictly legal, it was also political. And once the decision had been made to recognize the authority of the two Sioux tribes to oppose the nickname, the only thing Stenehjem could do was get the best deal possible. I believe that under those circumstances, he did the best he could do. That doesn't mean I'm thrilled about the settlement. I, too, had hoped for something better. However, it's quite obvious to me that based on what was said Friday, the change in public policy was made at a level above Stenehjem's. Blaming him for that change serves no useful purpose. Need I remind everyone that a person no less than Tom Clifford (also an attorney) once said that he thought there was no way UND could continue to use the nickname if the Sioux tribes opposed it? Charles Kupchella seriously studied the issue and came to the same conclusion. Also, allow me to take you back to Dec. 21, 2006, when Scott Murphy wrote: Maybe I'm too much of a pragmatist to really think the name is bigger than the school itself. If the use of the name/logo puts the school and/or its athletes in a less than desirable situation, at D1, D2, or wherever, it's time for it to go. At the end of the day, "moral" victories are usually Pyrrhic victories in drag. Whatever happened to that pragmatist, Scott? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Whistler Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 That doesn't mean I'm thrilled about the settlement. I, too, had hoped for something better. However, it's quite obvious to me that based on what was said Friday, the change in public policy was made at a level above Stenehjem's. Blaming him for that change serves no useful purpose. I'm curious to know exactly why you think this was a change in public policy. Like the NCAA the state government is supposed to follow certain rules and certainly allow for public input. In effect a publicly owned asset worth millions of dollars was just given away with no accountability. On the other hand the Attorney General is more than merely a lawyer that happened to be representing the University. Seeing how he's directly elected by the voters he is a power in his own right and does not technically have anyone over his head except for the voters. Of course the lines blur if he feels he's acting for the Board of Higher Education? I would counter though that he's supposed to be representing the people of North Dakota. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 I'm curious to know exactly why you think this was a change in public policy. Because Bill Goetz, the current chancellor and former chief of staff for Gov. Hoeven, said so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Whistler Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Because Bill Goetz, the current chancellor and former chief of staff for Gov. Hoeven, said so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Whatever happened to that pragmatist, Scott? This pragmatist would not have made UND's keeping the name/logo subject to the approval of hostile non-litigants. If UND wanted to retire the name/logo on its own, for whatever reason(s) it should have done so and dispensed with that line of bullsh!t about tribal "approval", which was then subject to summary withdrawal. Moreover, if the Board and/or AG, had paid attention they would have known this was a non-starter anyway, so why waste everybody's time and more money by pandering to these assclowns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxjoy Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 My only question is what can UND offer them that our state hasn't already given? I know for a fact that there are Native American students in the medical school that would not be there if they weren't Native Americans. I know when I turned 18, I didn't receive any compensation from the government, I received a card telling me I had to register so I'd be eligible for the draft if it ever came to that. Despite all the things we've already done, they still don't support the name, so I don't see how that will change. And I am ruling out bribery because I'm going to give the leaders of both the tribes and our university more credit that that. I am, by nature, an optimist. I believe that good can come from everything. Personally, I think a great start would be more activities like this. Of course, in light of the settlement, some activities are going to seem contrived, but if a group is doing something because it is the right thing to do, who can argue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
star2city Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 This pragmatist would not have made UND's keeping the name/logo subject to the approval of hostile non-litigants. If UND wanted to retire the name/logo on its own, for whatever reason(s) it should have done so and dispensed with that line of bullsh!t about tribal "approval", which was then subject to summary withdrawal. Moreover, if the Board and/or AG, had paid attention they would have known this was a non-starter anyway, so why waste everybody's time and more money by pandering to these assclowns? I was very disappointed in the settlement, but with the NCAA changing their by-laws, why pursue a victory that will become moot? When the lawsuit first came up, it wasn't clear that the NCAA Executive Committe would have the necessary support to ramrod a bylaw change through. While officially there is still hope that UND can retain the nickname, the settlement seems to be an admission that the days of the Fighting Sioux are numbered. It does seem that the pragmatists won on four issues: 1. Economics: Costs to retrofit the REA went down significantly relative to the cost of the lawsuit. 2. Politics: UND leadership (especially the new President), the NDBoHE, and ND officials no longer have to take political heat if the name changes. 3. NCAA relationship: If UND had gone through with the court case, the NCAA would have made UND's DI transition hellish. 4. Athletics: With a name change, UND can play Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa. There was already pressure internally to make the change - now there's convenient cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 I am, by nature, an optimist. I believe that good can come from everything. Personally, I think a great start would be more activities like this. Of course, in light of the settlement, some activities are going to seem contrived, but if a group is doing something because it is the right thing to do, who can argue? I just wanted to point out that UND women's basketball player AnnaLeigh Brady attended Four Winds High School, so this event made a lot of sense for multiple reasons, and was planned well in advance of the announcement of the settlement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 (edited) This pragmatist would not have made UND's keeping the name/logo subject to the approval of hostile non-litigants. If UND wanted to retire the name/logo on its own, for whatever reason(s) it should have done so and dispensed with that line of bullsh!t about tribal "approval", which was then subject to summary withdrawal. And, again, I will point out that I doubt very much that this was Stenehjem's call to make. The other thing I think was interesting about Friday's events is that many in the news media assumed that Stenehjem would be heading the negotiations with the Sioux tribes. I don't have his exact response handy, but it was something to the effect that he would be involved if he was asked. He then made a statement about the negotiations being conducted from the highest level of state government. I could certainly be wrong, but the impression I got was that Stenehjem believed he had done as much legally as he was allowed to do and that those with the authority to make public policy on behalf of the state should lead the negotiations. He didn't rule out his invovlement, but he clearly didn't believe that it was his responsibility to negotiate with the tribes without an invitation from a higher authority. Edited October 29, 2007 by PCM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Whistler Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 And, again, I will point out that I doubt very much that this was Stenehjem's call to make. The other thing I think was interesting about Friday's events is that many in the news media assumed that Stenehjem would be heading the negotiations with the Sioux tribes. I don't have his exact response handy, but it was something to the effect that he would be involved if he was asked. He then made a statement about the negotiations being conducted from the highest level of state government. I could certainly be wrong, but the impression I got was that Stenehjem believed he had done as much legally as he was allowed to do and that those with the authority to make public policy on behalf of the state should lead the negotiations. He didn't rule out his invovlement, but he clearly didn't believe that it was his reponsibility to negotiate with the tribes without an invitation from a higher authority. It was in the Herald Friday I believe that he thought that the Governor and himself should be the negotiators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 It was in the Herald Friday I believe that he thought that the Governor and himself should be the negotiators. That's the impression I got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxbow6 Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 On a side note, I read the GF Herald, Bismarck Tribune and Fargo Forum on Saturday concerning the Indian leadership's response to the settlement. There seems to be, at this point, little chance from their responses that a deal will or could be worked out. What I did find laughable were the comments from David Gipp, president of United Tribes Technical College in Bismarck. He was qouted as saying that UND's "meddling" during this 3 year period of negotiations will cause "untold damage" in the lives of "good (Indian) people and families". Is he serious? This is the mentality that UND will have to deal with for 3 years. Indian leadership in this state continues to see the tree and not the forest. The real "untold damage" has been going on for decades in the form of high rates of unemployment, alcoholism, teen pregnancies, high school drop-outs and single parent homes. I am always waiting to hear Indian leadership address these real issues that are causing and will continue to cause "untold damage", but my feeling is that the UND Sioux logo and nickname will be long gone before this state's true Indian social/cultural issues are addressed by it's own leadership To think that UND can work out a deal with this type of thinking and leadership will be difficult to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goon Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 2. Politics: UND leadership (especially the new President), the NDBoHE, and ND officials no longer have to take political heat if the name changes. 3. NCAA relationship: If UND had gone through with the court case, the NCAA would have made UND's DI transition hellish. 4. Athletics: With a name change, UND can play Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa. There was already pressure internally to make the change - now there's convenient cover. I don't care if UND ever plays Minnesota, Iowa or Wisconsin in Football, big deal. Second do you think that the Board isnt' going to get any back lash if the name is changed? I think that is far from the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxjoy Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 I just wanted to point out that UND women's basketball player AnnaLeigh Brady attended Four Winds High School, so this event made a lot of sense for multiple reasons, and was planned well in advance of the announcement of the settlement. Oh, I know... But, what about the next time? What about the other schools on the reservations? What other programs can UND create that would be beneficial to the residents of the two reservations? I am convinced that there are creative folks working on this campus that can think of events that would be beneficial to all of the parties (holding camps definitely help skills for those athletes looking to become coaches some day). Off the top of my head: Nursing students take courses in Public Health nursing...what kind of programs could be done on the reservation? What about the student organization that gives financial advice? Why not have a session in Warwick? When I was in grade school, we could "adopt" a UND basketball player, why not have the grade schools on reservations "adopt" an athlete... APO (Alpha Phi Omega), a student service organization, could have a special trip to either Standing Rock or Spirit Lake. The possibilities are endless! I think that if the university can partner with the people of Spirit Lake and Standing Rock, everyone will come out a winner. Told you I was an optimist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Whistler Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 I can't support anything that remotely smells like a payoff. I find that as wrong as making threats to pull programs in place to help Indians. Clarification: I would maybe accept a reasonable royalty fee on logo'd merchandise sales as it's now a reality that the AG and BOHE turned over ownership of the Sioux name and logo to those two tribes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Oh, I know... But, what about the next time? What about the other schools on the reservations? What other programs can UND create that would be beneficial to the residents of the two reservations? I am convinced that there are creative folks working on this campus that can think of events that would be beneficial to all of the parties (holding camps definitely help skills for those athletes looking to become coaches some day). Off the top of my head: Nursing students take courses in Public Health nursing...what kind of programs could be done on the reservation? What about the student organization that gives financial advice? Why not have a session in Warwick? When I was in grade school, we could "adopt" a UND basketball player, why not have the grade schools on reservations "adopt" an athlete... APO (Alpha Phi Omega), a student service organization, could have a special trip to either Standing Rock or Spirit Lake. The possibilities are endless! I think that if the university can partner with the people of Spirit Lake and Standing Rock, everyone will come out a winner. Told you I was an optimist. Those are all good ideas, and examples of why retaining the name could be (or should I say "could have been"?) a very positive thing for the tribes. However, unfortunately it doesn't appear the elected tribal leaders have the vision and/or the common sense to realize this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 I can't support anything that remotely smells like a payoff. I find that as wrong as making threats to pull programs in place to help Indians. I agree. I also see no reason for UND to expand any of these programs either, lest they be contrived as "meddling" by some unhappy soul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Whistler Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 I agree. I also see no reason for UND to expand any of these programs either, lest they be contrived as "meddling" by some unhappy soul. We want to be very careful that we don't meddle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Told you I was an optimist. So am I and so was Stenehjem last Friday. The media jackals, as you might expect, were full of cynacism and skepticism about the possibility of coming to an understanding with the tribes. But Stenehjem pointed out that he'd been involved in negotiations with the tribes on a number of legal matters and they'd found ways in which to work things out. Besides, nobody gave up hope when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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