2007-2008 ND High School Hockey

[Goon]

(insert pro or con comment about Brett Hull's skate in the crease here)

[The Sicatoka]

Folks, that play could not have been reversed in a WCHA or NCAA game. Replay is only for goals and the crease area.

If anything it re-enforces my belief that the on-ice referee should be "wired" to another official in the press box who watches "the bigger picture" (like this) and for the "behind the play" stuff. And that's for HS, college, and NHL.

[BringDeanBack]

Folks, that play could not have been reversed in a WCHA or NCAA game. Replay is only for goals and the crease area.

If anything it re-enforces my belief that the on-ice referee should be "wired" to another official in the press box who watches "the bigger picture" (like this) and for the "behind the play" stuff. And that's for HS, college, and NHL.

That is a good idea. I think the frustrating part about the 6 men on the ice non-call is 1) the 6th guy actually scored the goal and 2) all 6 guys were relatively near the play. It's not like the extra guy was on his way to the bench right away and just didn't get there in time.

[seeboys]

I was suprised watching kvly's 6 o'clock news and they showed the home video of the play with six men on the ice.

[gfhockey]

Guess the dickinson coach resigned today after a disspaointing season.

Why are you surprised this is on the news? A lot of home videos are on the news.

[GF_siouxfan]

Some of you RR fans look like a bunch of sore losers and you know it too.

I am anything but a sore loser. Do you know this is a forum where you talk about games??? We talk about Sioux games for awhole week . If its complaing or bragging. Bashing or commending. Thrs topics that have been on here for much longer than this one. Yes, Red River had the whole rest of the hockey game to win the game but hey all im saying is that we tried to win the game the way a championship is suppose to be won.

to show you im not a loser.

HATS OFF TO GPR. They beat a hell of a team!

[the green team]

I believe the song goes... "3 Blind mice, 3 Blind mice..." Plain and simple, sad for all involved. for taking away from the story of GPR's marvelous play in the championship, for Red River getting jobbed on a (non)call that changed the game- for the second time this season, and for the officials, a horrifically embarrasing mistake that will continue to plague the perception of officials by the fans. Already we battle a shortage of officials in just about all sports-I encourage everyone to consider becomming one. However, with a replay system in place it would have only helped save these officials- save themselves from ignoring what was indeed a penalty, perhaps and I stress the word perhaps... of the game changing variety. My only question is what was discussed in that huddle of officials after the goal... I would have paid money to hear that conversation and how they came to the conclusion they did...we most likely will never know. Sad very sad.

[SportsDoc]

I have no horse in this race. I am neither from or rooted for either team. I loved that it was a great game played spiritedly by two quality opponents. I was at the game with my wife and did not notice the too many men on the ice infraction. We were aware something was wrong when the officials huddled for an extended period following the goal.

It is unfortunate that the officials missed the too many men on the ice infraction. As a HS official (in football and baseball) I can say we try to get every call correct, but we do miss things. I feel for the officials, it is a terrible error, but if none of the three of them saw the six men, they cannot go back and make such a call without being sure.

Let me pose some other questions. Ones that relates to the ethics of coaching, teaching or mentoring our young adults in sports, school and life and how that relates to the rest of their lives and how they then live those lives based on what they learn from their coaches, parents and other adults who influence them.

I do not know what the GPR players and coaches knew, but nobody seems to be asking this, so I will. With all the time that passed before the puck was finally dropped after the goal, at any time did the GPR coaching staff know or become aware they had scored with 6 men on the ice? And, if they did, why did they not bring that to the attention of the game officials themselves? I ask because I believe honorable people would have. This is not the same as whether someone committed a trip or an interference, where I would never expect a coach to intervene, as those are purely judgment calls. This is an instance where supervising adults, if they knew, could have corrected an obvious injustice and not have tainted the outcome. I believe if they knew and said nothing, it is sending a very poor message to our young people about the ethics of life. If they did not know, fine, we all just have to live with the officials' error, it happened, it's over, we move on. Everyone is putting this on the game officials, but there are other possibilities here that should not be overlooked.

[TheOcho]

I have no horse in this race. I am neither from or rooted for either team. I loved that it was a great game played spiritedly by two quality opponents. I was at the game with my wife and did not notice the too many men on the ice infraction. We were aware something was wrong when the officials huddled for an extended period following the goal.

It is unfortunate that the officials missed the too many men on the ice infraction. As a HS official (in football and baseball) I can say we try to get every call correct, but we do miss things. I feel for the officials, it is a terrible error, but if none of the three of them saw the six men, they cannot go back and make such a call without being sure.

Let me pose some other questions. Ones that relates to the ethics of coaching, teaching or mentoring our young adults in sports, school and life and how that relates to the rest of their lives and how they then live those lives based on what they learn from their coaches, parents and other adults who influence them.

I do not know what the GPR players and coaches knew, but nobody seems to be asking this, so I will. With all the time that passed before the puck was finally dropped after the goal, at any time did the GPR coaching staff know or become aware they had scored with 6 men on the ice? And, if they did, why did they not bring that to the attention of the game officials themselves? I ask because I believe honorable people would have. This is not the same as whether someone committed a trip or an interference, where I would never expect a coach to intervene, as those are purely judgment calls. This is an instance where supervising adults, if they knew, could have corrected an obvious injustice and not have tainted the outcome. I believe if they knew and said nothing, it is sending a very poor message to our young people about the ethics of life. If they did not know, fine, we all just have to live with the officials' error, it happened, it's over, we move on. Everyone is putting this on the game officials, but there are other possibilities here that should not be overlooked.

SportsDoc, I think we would all love to live in a world where people were so honest. But to be frank, we do not. Even so, when would a coaches authority end? Could he tell the "truth" about the opposing teams goals or penalties? I think we give the referees these responsibilities for a reason, and unfortunatly the system is not perfect. We have all seen goals kicked in, extra downs, pucks that have or have not crossed the line, etc. and the wrong call is made. I think it would be best if we enforced a greater and more effective replay system so that the most accurate call could be made everytime.

[ND Pride]

I have no horse in this race. I am neither from or rooted for either team. I loved that it was a great game played spiritedly by two quality opponents. I was at the game with my wife and did not notice the too many men on the ice infraction. We were aware something was wrong when the officials huddled for an extended period following the goal.

It is unfortunate that the officials missed the too many men on the ice infraction. As a HS official (in football and baseball) I can say we try to get every call correct, but we do miss things. I feel for the officials, it is a terrible error, but if none of the three of them saw the six men, they cannot go back and make such a call without being sure.

Let me pose some other questions. Ones that relates to the ethics of coaching, teaching or mentoring our young adults in sports, school and life and how that relates to the rest of their lives and how they then live those lives based on what they learn from their coaches, parents and other adults who influence them.

I do not know what the GPR players and coaches knew, but nobody seems to be asking this, so I will. With all the time that passed before the puck was finally dropped after the goal, at any time did the GPR coaching staff know or become aware they had scored with 6 men on the ice? And, if they did, why did they not bring that to the attention of the game officials themselves? I ask because I believe honorable people would have. This is not the same as whether someone committed a trip or an interference, where I would never expect a coach to intervene, as those are purely judgment calls. This is an instance where supervising adults, if they knew, could have corrected an obvious injustice and not have tainted the outcome. I believe if they knew and said nothing, it is sending a very poor message to our young people about the ethics of life. If they did not know, fine, we all just have to live with the officials' error, it happened, it's over, we move on. Everyone is putting this on the game officials, but there are other possibilities here that should not be overlooked.

Your points about the ethical issues, fairness, etc. as norms that should be upheld by coaches are well-taken. My question is this, in this particular game can a referee make a call that he did not see based on the observation of a coach of the team that made the infraction? From what I have read on this board so far, it seems that the coach could not have an impact on the ref. You state, that "..supervising adults, if they knew, could have corrected an obvious injustice and not have tainted the outcome." Again, can a ref make a call that they personally did not see, based on the observation of a supervising adult (coach)? I think the answer to that question is "no". If I am wrong on this please indicate this based on the rules of the game.

[ND Pride]

Here are some observations on the Grafton/RR Championship game and the 6 player controversy. I have watched the re-play a number of times and have asked myself the question, "What would I have done had I been a coach or a player on the bench and knew that my team had too many men on the ice?" I think the reasonable person (coach or player) would call a player off if they knew of the violation. Grafton had an advantage with the power play so why would anyone knowingly risk the loss of that advantage with their own violation (too many men) - especially in a game that is televised. As such, I discount anyone who suggests that Grafton coaches were aware of the violation. A reasonable person is not going to risk the advantage that they already have.

The fact that the violation was missed is unfortunate and ideally it should have never happened. There is no basis for defending that error. However, it does not absolutely follow that a team will score a goal because they have an advantage in player numbers. It is only natural for those on the short end of the outcome to attribute the score to the fact that an extra player was on the ice. Such a situation does not automatically mean that a team will always score. They may well have scored anyway if the extra player was not on the ice. Interestingly, at the point at which the goal was scored there were three players back near the blueline.

In any case, the lack of a call created, in the least, some adversity for Red River. They are an excellent team and they dug hard to prevail in the overtime and overcome that adversity. For that they deserve great credit. It is tough to be the favorite from the beginning of the season up to the last, and most important game, and then not win. Credit to both teams for a great game. Congrats to Grafton on their state championship.

[Lives-to-play-hockey-06]

The second red river goal was offsides so its all even.

[junior24]

Lives-to-Play, would do us all a favor and tell us who you are. You had stated numerous times you played fro Red River and graduated in 06. I happen to know all the seniors from that team, and your profile and comments do not seem to match anyones personality.

Back to the topic. SportsDoc, i agree with you most part, but as a coach you can never take away from your team. (telling the ref you had too many). Also, even if he did say to the refs they had too many, no the refs would not and SHOULD not change there call. What if they always went to the coaches for advice? The refs are on the ice for a reason. To answer your questions about when they figured out there were six guys? It appeared to be well after the play, all six players celebrated and went through the line of players on the bench and the last guy casually slipped onto the bench. Another place the refs messed up was telling the Red River Captains they are aware they had six players on the ice for the celebration, that is a penalty in itself to come off the bench for a celebration.

[junior24]

The second red river goal was offsides so its all even.

Also, for one, you have no video evidence it was offsides. Two, it was obviously extremely close, and is a JUDGEMENT call. The ref could argue he thought the defensemen kept it in, where with sim men on the ice is not a refs judgement, it is clearly visible.

[Lives-to-play-hockey-06]

Lives-to-Play, would do us all a favor and tell us who you are. You had stated numerous times you played fro Red River and graduated in 06. I happen to know all the seniors from that team, and your profile and comments do not seem to match anyones personality.

Back to the topic. SportsDoc, i agree with you most part, but as a coach you can never take away from your team. (telling the ref you had too many). Also, even if he did say to the refs they had too many, no the refs would not and SHOULD not change there call. What if they always went to the coaches for advice? The refs are on the ice for a reason. To answer your questions about when they figured out there were six guys? It appeared to be well after the play, all six players celebrated and went through the line of players on the bench and the last guy casually slipped onto the bench. Another place the refs messed up was telling the Red River Captains they are aware they had six players on the ice for the celebration, that is a penalty in itself to come off the bench for a celebration.

That last line is absurd. There are more than 6 players on the ice during a celebration all the time. This is because coaches frequently change after goal and those players congratulate the person who scored.

Thats funny cause me and the guys I played with were talking about you the other day. We obviously had a good laugh.

[junior24]

I have no problem saying who I am, as most people already know. Don't be a coward and claim you are someone you aren't.

[junior24]

That last line is absurd. There are more than 6 players on the ice during a celebration all the time. This is because coaches frequently change after goal and those players congratulate the person who scored.

Thats funny cause me and the guys I played with were talking about you the other day. We obviously had a good laugh.

In that case yes, but in the case of a single player coming off the bench to celebrate, that is illegal.

[GF_siouxfan]

Out of curiosity who are you 2

[Warthog]

I guess the ref must not have been used to seeing the ice crowded??? Because, unless they have the fastest goalie ever+plus idk superman speed this is called Cheating.

You have the wrong on the ref. The linesmen on the red line must make that call. The ref on the blue is watching for Offside, Penalties, and Icing, he is not watching the play at center ice.

[ILOVEHOCKEY15]

Lives to play hockey who are you?

[ndhockey94]

First of all, absolutely the penalty should have been called. The refs should be held accountable for missing it. However, there is no way the goal could have been called off, even with instant replay. Too many men on the ice is a penalty, a goal cannot be called off because a ref missed a penalty. This situation is directly comparable to any other penalty. Let

[siouxkid12]

First of all, absolutely the penalty should have been called. The refs should be held accountable for missing it. However, there is no way the goal could have been called off, even with instant replay. Too many men on the ice is a penalty, a goal cannot be called off because a ref missed a penalty. This situation is directly comparable to any other penalty. Let

[TheOcho]

I don't think anyone will disagree a call was missed that could have potentially changed the outcome of the game. Is this the first time this has happend? Not even close. I've seen Red River players kick pucks in, South players cover pucks in the crease, Grafton players score with too many men, seen teams receive extra downs, etc. However, in many instances, we can not say with complete certainty had the correct call been made a goal would not have been scored, or the outcome of the game changed.

From my analysis of the video, it is my conclusion that the forward number twelve does appear to be the sixth man on the ice. However, there is no rule on how many forwards or how many defensmen a team must have on the ice at one time (just a maximum of five skaters). With that said, had Coach Haugland caught the fact that number twelve wrongly entered the game, he could have shouted out to the defensemen who was sluggishly following the play and the game would have remained 5 on 4 rather than 6 on 4, and the goal would have still occured.

Calls get missed in games, and it's really unfortunate when they taint the efforts of two very deserving teams. I think it's important to take this for what it is (a common mistake on the end of the referee) and find a way to prevent such instances from occuring in the future.

[Tsiouxnami]

This is obviously something that was missed by a LOT of people (granted, in a perfect world, the refs aren't supposed to miss anything, but....we have all watched the WCHA and know how THAT goes!). Most games I have witnessed, (where a too many men on the ice occurs) generally have, not only the opposing coaches SCREAMING at the officials, but the fans as well! I know it is not a sure fire bet, but usually that wakes an official up and makes them start counting.

[siouxtatoo42]

the most embarrassing part of the whole ordeal isn't that the officials missed a call, but how the red river student section and several other fans reacted after the overtime goal was scored by littering the ice with trash, signs and then throwing things at the grafton players as they celebrated....it was a disgusting act of childish, spoiled, self righteous disrespect and the administrators and teachers at red river should be absolutely embarrassed with the way they were represented by the students and fans. absolutely disgusting...