GF Herald Editorial Page

[dlsiouxfan]

Hey if the bison don't want to schedule us so be it. Our coaches will just schedule other top I-AA's and I-A's and tell every recruit they're too chickenshit to play us and outrecruit them just like we did the last years in DII. It really will look like they're ducking UND, which would be about 95% accurate if they choose not to schedule us. Hopefull, your administrators have more sense than some of your fans do (which it appears they do).

[star2city]

Hey if the bison don't want to schedule us so be it. Our coaches will just schedule other top I-AA's and I-A's and tell every recruit they're too chickenshit to play us and outrecruit them just like we did the last years in DII. It really will look like they're ducking UND, which would be about 95% accurate if they choose not to schedule us. Hopefull, your administrators have more sense than some of your fans do (which it appears they do).

I think everyone would agree that last year NDSU outrecruited us, mainly because of the scholarship levels NDSU could offer. The previous years, we were able to get athletes like Chappell and Dressler that NDSU also went after. Recruiting should more competitve again this year, as UND will be able to offer full scholarship levels for recruits after their redshirt year.

For NDSU, they will now be able to claim to recruits that are considering MAC schools (Wisconsin & Chicago area especially): hey, we beat a MAC team at their place - we're at the same level of play. If NDSU is able to play the Gophers tough, that will also be a recruiting plus for them. With NDSU playoff eligible in 2008, they'll use that to differentiate and gain an edge over UND recruiters. If NDSU gets in the Gateway, that would be another recruiting benefit to be in an autobid conference. It is important for UND to have a conference committment soon for recruiting in all sports so we can at least claim that a we'll be playing for a conference championship.

[Holdem]

I appreciate the hockey programs success and the fans it entertains. But Bison football is as big an event as you have in North Dakota, not UND football. NDSU is averaging just under 16,000 right now. There is no economic impact in Fargo with you guys in town. You can only add 3,000 extra fans. It may even add less in your town because your football arena is so small.

In fact, having the teams play would reduce combined attendance for the two schools from say 26 - 27,000 to 19,000 at the most, or if played in your town 12,250. That leaves a lot of money on the table. If the game was played in your town about 15,000 people would be left out. What about those revenues?

No, the revenue argument holds no water.

There is no ducking you. We can schedule whom we please, the teams we want to play. There is no obligation to put you on our marquee. Certainly you will have some big games, but it gets expensive to pay the big gurantee when you dont have enough seats. NDSU has 7,000 extra seats. Thats huge not only for recruits but for revnue growth and overall impact of the event on the State. Thats why you will come running when we snap our fingers.

[The Sicatoka]

Holdem, you make a fair case, but you make some assumptions and forget some other areas:

1. You assume each would play a home game instead of "one at other" in your gating estimates. If someone needs a road game that assumption fails.

2. What's a seat to the first "one at other" game worth in terms of ticket price? Bison fans howled when UND charged premium prices for NDSU at UND the last time. (UND's been charging premium ticket levels for key foes in hockey for quite a while.)

Don't think the host of that game couldn't ask for double (more?) of normal face for that first "let's get re-associated" game. (And if it were NDSU as host, I'm pretty sure the Stop-n-Go 2-for-1 discount wouldn't apply.) There's the economic impact.

3.

There is no obligation to put you on our marquee.

That's a bad sentiment to have in play if the day of "Bison DI Hockey" ever comes to pass. Or even basketball (UND put 13500 into REA for Kansas and REA is better for BB than either dome).

[Holdem]

Thanks for the reply. On the Hockey question, if NDSU were ever to make that move I dont think we would be relying on you for anything. When we did show an interest in starting a program I didnt see much support coming from your school. The stance your school took was no NDSU membership in the WCHA but a few games might be possible. Thanks for the help.

Secondly, the problem with your road game argument is that both teams will be IN North Dakota. Its the fans here in North Dakota that will lose out. The way to maximize revenues is not to play. More North Dakota fans will be ticket buyers without the game.

Thirdly, when ticket prices were raised to $27.50 your place was not sold out. NDSU always put a few extra dollars on the game with you guys. The $27.50 was an act of ill will reinforcing the underlying argument that the association is not good for NDSU. We do much better without you.

The need for you to play NDSU is apparent in the posts I read around the boards. You guys are going to have a lot of trouble playing in our shadow. The only way you can get out of it is to get on our schedules. How could that happen?

1) A single game contract that would bring you to Fargo for zero dollars, making up for the lost NCC game.

2) A single game contract for a typical bus fare team.

There would be no return obligation. You already had that contract and threw it out.

[The Sicatoka]

Thanks for the reply. On the Hockey question, if NDSU were ever to make that move I dont think we would be relying on you for anything. When we did show an interest in starting a program I didnt see much support coming from your school. The stance your school took was no NDSU membership in the WCHA but a few games might be possible. Thanks for the help.

Nobody is getting in to the WCHA right now. Bemidji State (with Duluth, SCSU, and MSU-Mankato, plus Minnesota, in the league) still ended up in the CHA. It's that simple.

And how is it that NDSU felt slighted by the lack of help from UND when it was looking at DI hockey? If NDSU doesn't care what UND thinks and doesn't need UND, then why didn't the Joe Chapman just go full-force into hockey?

Secondly, the problem with your road game argument is that both teams will be IN North Dakota. Its the fans here in North Dakota that will lose out. The way to maximize revenues is not to play. More North Dakota fans will be ticket buyers without the game.

If one or another needs a road game what road game can still give economic impact to the state?

Thirdly, when ticket prices were raised to $27.50 your place was not sold out. NDSU always put a few extra dollars on the game with you guys. The $27.50 was an act of ill will reinforcing the underlying argument that the association is not good for NDSU. We do much better without you.

Given that UND Football is now quoting 12,283 for seating in Alerus Center, it did sell out. (The 13500 number apparently includes suites and SROs that Alerus, not UND, controls so UND only quotes what it controls.)

And if $27.50 is "ill will", UND must have a lot to spread around: That's what they charge per game for a two-game series v. Minnesota. Big-time pricing for big-time events.

[82SiouxGuy]

Secondly, the problem with your road game argument is that both teams will be IN North Dakota. Its the fans here in North Dakota that will lose out. The way to maximize revenues is not to play. More North Dakota fans will be ticket buyers without the game.

I disagree with several of your points, but this one is the most obvious. Both schools try to set up as many home games as possible, but they also have to play road games. So a UND-NDSU game would be one of the home games on the schedule for the home team and one of the road games on the schedule for the traveling team. The road team would probably get the normal fee for a road game in IAA (with much less expense) and the home team gets higher than normal revenues (premium ticket price and a full house). It is a win-win for both programs financially. It probably also pays more for television rights than any event in North Dakota.

Your premise only holds if the visiting team is giving up a home game (or possibly a lucrative contract against a IA team). Since no team gets to play the entire season at home that part isn't likely. Wouldn't it be nice if one of your road games was only an hour drive instead of on the East or West Coast? And most of the IA teams schedule several years in advance so that can be worked around if either team has that opportunity.

The biggest reason this series will resume is because it becomes one of the biggest events of the year in the region. Most people in the area want the schools to play. They fill stadiums and watch televisions. It creates a lot of interest and publicity for both schools. So even if it wasn't a big win financially (which it is), it still makes sense for them to play. And if the schools end up in the same football conference than the whole argument is moot.

[GeauxSioux]

I appreciate the hockey programs success and the fans it entertains. But Bison football is as big an event as you have in North Dakota, not UND football. NDSU is averaging just under 16,000 right now. There is no economic impact in Fargo with you guys in town. You can only add 3,000 extra fans. It may even add less in your town because your football arena is so small.

In fact, having the teams play would reduce combined attendance for the two schools from say 26 - 27,000 to 19,000 at the most, or if played in your town 12,250. That leaves a lot of money on the table. If the game was played in your town about 15,000 people would be left out. What about those revenues?

No, the revenue argument holds no water.

There is no ducking you. We can schedule whom we please, the teams we want to play. There is no obligation to put you on our marquee. Certainly you will have some big games, but it gets expensive to pay the big gurantee when you dont have enough seats. NDSU has 7,000 extra seats. Thats huge not only for recruits but for revnue growth and overall impact of the event on the State. Thats why you will come running when we snap our fingers.

JBB, your figures only work if both teams were at home on the same weekend. In actuality it is an away game for one of the teams and a cheap away game at that. That still leaves the away team to schedule another home game and add revenue. The revenue from radio and television are obviously much larger for a UND/NDSU game than they would be any other game the schools would schedule. I know that you will try and refute that fact, but it is true. The whole state gets up for that game.

If the leadership is so great at NDSU, as most bison fans claim, they would be fools not to want the $$$.

I'm sure that UND will do just fine with scheduling and will not have to run to NDSU's finger snap. Buning has already contacted NDSU about future scheduling and from the sounds of it will probably happen in either 2008 or 2009. As much as some NDSU fans hate to admit it, UND hockey will help in scheduling. I can see UND contacting Maine, New Hampshire and some other hockey schools for scheduling.

You can hold your comments regarding UND being in NDSU's shadow, until NDSU starts hanging some Division I NC banners. It is disrespectful to come on "your rival's" board with that kind of talk. Once again congratulations on your victory over Ball State last weekend, but don't let it detoriorate into trash talking.

[Holdem]

I see all of you trying to make strong arguments for the game because you need it. You have nothing significant to offer NDSU that we dont already have. What your offering are marginal benefits. Nothing we cant get from scheduling with any number of programs across the country. We will have more BISON fans at the Metro Dome in few weeks than you guys average.

We did need the game but survived just fine without it and have outgrown any of the old reasons to resume:

1) our stadium is no longer half full.

2) Our ability to bring in marquee opponents no longer makes an association with you necessary

3) Our market is the largest in the State. No need to put you guys in the lime lite. You have your own stadium and your own market.

The idea that the $27.50 tickets wasnt ill will is absurd. We know what happened. The only thing right was the nature of NDSU Football. It is big time.

The other funny point made is typical. Revise the past, in this case lower the seating capacity, and now, years later, declare the thing a sellout! That is rich! Of course there are two sides to everything.

The important thing for NDSU is to keep it all in perspective, look at the relationship at all levels, not just athletics, how we benefited from your actions and what your intentions have been and will be. What kind of partner have you been? That is why we will expect very little from you in hockey. We saw what you had to offer, nothing thank you. Now you may need a conference and some help from us.

Some of the arguments presented in rebuttal are good ones. Others are telling examples of everything that is wrong with what some are calling "The Renewal". Keeping the market split is in the best interest to North Dakota football fans. More will see their team play and more revenues will be generated with the teams staying at home. Of course, like in your case, if your options are limited you would be seeking out a chance to play in Fargo.

But the question remains why are you so eager to play NDSU when just a few short years ago contracts were thrown out? My guess, you are on the outside looking in. Thats why a renwal will look like this:

1) Single game contract for the Fabulous Fargo Dome with no guarantee to make up for the lost NCC game.

2) Single game contract for the Fabulous Fargo Dome with a typical bus trip guarantee.

Good luck on your scheduling. Im sure you will get 10 or 11 games and your hockey relationships may help. I know we will have a full schedule too. Nice showing against W Washington. Your come back is the sign of a strong and focused team.

[PCM]

You have nothing significant to offer NDSU that we dont already have. What your offering are marginal benefits. Nothing we cant get from scheduling with any number of programs across the country. We will have more BISON fans at the Metro Dome in few weeks than you guys average.

Who is this "we" of whom you speak? Are you channeling Gene Taylor and Joe Chapman?

[The Sicatoka]

You have nothing significant to offer NDSU that we dont already have.

Home-and-home with UND:

- full house (about 20000)

- premium pricing?

- 75 mile road trip costs the other year

Home-and-home with anyone else:

- 16000 (figure high average)

- standard pricing

- (unknown) mile road trip costs the other year

Nope. Nothin'.

I hope you aren't managing the accounts for Mr. Taylor.

[FargoBison]

Home-and-home with UND:

- full house (about 20000)

- premium pricing?

- 75 mile road trip costs the other year

Home-and-home with anyone else:

- 16000 (figure high average)

- standard pricing

- (unknown) mile road trip costs the other year

Nope. Nothin'.

I hope you aren't managing the accounts for Mr. Taylor.

Those are all advantages but I see the ultimate advantage being exposure. I think the UND-NDSU game has the potential to be broadcast on ESPNU or CSTV in DI. Yeah, the boost in income is nice and so is a road game that fans are able to go to but you can't buy exposure. I still can't figure out why some Bison fans can't seem to grasp the concept that NDSU is going to play UND in football in 2008 or 2009. Besides the positives that have been noted in this thread that will make NDSU want to play UND there is also the fact the state wants this game to happen and Gene Taylor knows better then to deny the state of ND and many Bison fans a game they want to see that is easy to schedule.

[The Sicatoka]

I still can't figure out why some Bison fans can't seem to grasp the concept that NDSU is going to play UND in football in 2008 or 2009.

It takes all kinds. (shrugs)

Is there still a DI-AA 'game of the week' on some network? That'd play.

[Bison Dan]

Home-and-home with UND:

- full house (about 20000)

- premium pricing?

- 75 mile road trip costs the other year

Home-and-home with anyone else:

- 16000 (figure high average)

- standard pricing

- (unknown) mile road trip costs the other year

Nope. Nothin'.

I hope you aren't managing the accounts for Mr. Taylor.

This didn't seem to matter to UND in 2004!

[Smoggy]

1) our stadium is no longer half full.

Isn't this because your games are all two for ones when a person hits stop-n-go? Doesn't Scheels also give away free tix for you? Lots of revenue coming in on those.

[GeauxSioux]

We did need the game but survived just fine without it and have outgrown any of the old reasons to resume:

1) our stadium is no longer half full.

No it just sounds sounds like it is.

2) Our ability to bring in marquee opponents no longer makes an association with you necessary

When is FSU coming to Fargo or is it Alabama?

3) Our market is the largest in the State. No need to put you guys in the lime lite. You have your own stadium and your own market.

Too bad that the largest market in the state is also filled with UND fans, whereas UND completely controls the Grand Forks market and from the looks of the comments on Bisonville, the Bismarck market as well.

By the way you better tell the people at Florida, Florida State, Alabama, Auburn, Georgia, Georgia Tech.... that they are killing themselves on revenue by scheduling their in-state rivals.

[star2city]

The letter-writing campaign on bisonville.com may have yielded fruit:

North Dakota tuition waivers to get a review by NDUS

But ignorance of NDSU's situation may come back to bite the bisonville backers in the aff. It never seems to sink into them that NDSU makes much higher use of tuition waivers than UND. More than a year ago, Chapman also stated in the Forum that they may have to use waivers for athletics.

A comment on the Bismarck Tribune website:

NDSU has been 'buying' their growth in graduate programs. After adding 20 new PhD programs since 1999, they have also grown their graduate student enrollment through full and partial tuition waivers. NDSU has about 1600 graduate students, and about 900 have a tuition waiver. UND has 2100 graduate students with 740 (35%) with a full or partial tuition waiver. NDSU graduate program has 500 fewer graduate students, but 150 more students on tuition waivers. Perhaps this is NDSU talks so much about needing more funds. "

[Riverman]

North Dakota tuition waivers to get a review by NDUS

But ignorance of NDSU's situation may come back to bite the bisonville backers in the aff. It never seems to sink into them that NDSU makes much higher use of tuition waivers than UND. More than a year ago, Chapman also stated in the Forum that they may have to use waivers for athletics.

star2city, With the board of higher ed in Joe's back pocket.....

I found this posters comment interesting. And I agree this should go for all schools in ND!!!!!

But let's not start doling out state dollars to buy better athletes. I certainly hope that there are safeguards in place so tax dollars in the form of tuition waivers aren't being used in place of legitimate athletic scholarships

.

[dakotadan]

I don't want to get this thread too off track, but hasn't Buning mentioned before that it would be a good idea both financially and PR wise to eventually only offer athletic tuition waivers to players who are originally from NoDak? Or did I just dream this up? It seems like a good idea to me.

[biff]

The letter-writing campaign on bisonville.com may have yielded fruit:

North Dakota tuition waivers to get a review by NDUS

But ignorance of NDSU's situation may come back to bite the bisonville backers in the aff. It never seems to sink into them that NDSU makes much higher use of tuition waivers than UND. More than a year ago, Chapman also stated in the Forum that they may have to use waivers for athletics.

A comment on the Bismarck Tribune website:

This still offers no support for your claims of tuition waivers used for either school. There is no source cited for the quote you post. For all we know, it could be a post from someone with facts, the president, or Barney the purple dinosaur.

The same poster talks later about the benefit of the NDSU tuition waivers on the state's economy. This is not related at all to athletics.

[bincitysioux]

I appreciate the hockey programs success and the fans it entertains. But Bison football is as big an event as you have in North Dakota, not UND football. NDSU is averaging just under 16,000 right now. There is no economic impact in Fargo with you guys in town. You can only add 3,000 extra fans. It may even add less in your town because your football arena is so small.

In fact, having the teams play would reduce combined attendance for the two schools from say 26 - 27,000 to 19,000 at the most, or if played in your town 12,250. That leaves a lot of money on the table. If the game was played in your town about 15,000 people would be left out. What about those revenues?

No, the revenue argument holds no water.

There is no ducking you. We can schedule whom we please, the teams we want to play. There is no obligation to put you on our marquee. Certainly you will have some big games, but it gets expensive to pay the big gurantee when you dont have enough seats. NDSU has 7,000 extra seats. Thats huge not only for recruits but for revnue growth and overall impact of the event on the State. Thats why you will come running when we snap our fingers.

After reading this post, I'm sure that "Holdem" is either JBB or his most recent protege.

[star2city]

This still offers no support for your claims of tuition waivers used for either school. There is no source cited for the quote you post. For all we know, it could be a post from someone with facts, the president, or Barney the purple dinosaur.

The same poster talks later about the benefit of the NDSU tuition waivers on the state's economy. This is not related at all to athletics.

Duh...

The point remains that NDSU is using academic tuition waivers to a far greater extent than UND does. If the board chooses to place restrictions on tuition waivers which is what bison fans seem to be are asking for (and its been in the press that UND uses tuition waivers for women's hockey), NDSU as an institution will be hurt far more than UND.

[star2city]

After reading this post, I'm sure that "Holdem" is either JBB or his most recent protege.

JBB's jealous obsession with UND is endless. Even after the biggest football win in NDSU history he can't even savor it for a day or two, but rather still frets and fears UND's impending move up. Classic.

Moderator:

Can you please ban the latest incarnation of JBB? Thank you!!

[GeauxSioux]

The letter-writing campaign on bisonville.com may have yielded fruit:

North Dakota tuition waivers to get a review by NDUS

But ignorance of NDSU's situation may come back to bite the bisonville backers in the aff. It never seems to sink into them that NDSU makes much higher use of tuition waivers than UND. More than a year ago, Chapman also stated in the Forum that they may have to use waivers for athletics.

A comment on the Bismarck Tribune website:

Some of the Bison fans realize that those in glass houses shouldn't be throwing rocks.

http://www.bisonville.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...150807216/12#12

[fightingsioux4life]

JBB's jealous obsession with UND is endless. Even after the biggest football win in NDSU history he can't even savor it for a day or two, but rather still frets and fears UND's impending move up. Classic.

Moderator:

Can you please ban the latest incarnation of JBB? Thank you!!

star2city,

No, you got it all wrong on this one. Let JBB (er, I mean Holdem) keep posting on here. He is so good at hanging himself with his ridiculous anti-UND, anti-Grand Forks comments that banning him isn't necessary. It's good entertainment to watch him try to spin NDSU's football program into looking like a D-I power. He just wants everybody to forget who has the Nickel and who has won 10 out of the past 13 matchups between the two schools. Letting him post on here gives us a chance to counter his revisionist views of UND-NDSU football.

By the way, I like the new name: Holdem. As I recall, that's what happened the last time we played the BISON in Grand Forks. In overtime. UND up 28-21. 4th and Inches. Digger Anderson stops the ballcarrier to secure the win and the Nickel until we meet again (in a couple of years)!

Hmm, maybe THAT'S why JBB doesn't want to play us anymore?